Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[Leyland Bus]

Would transferring routes between depots help? I'm thinking 36/37 run by Go North West, presumably from Bolton, but similar 38 run from Hyde Road by Metroline. If Metroline is short of staff, move the 38 to Bolton........... but I expect that's too easy an answer!

And where does Go Ahead get the staff to run that, let alone garage space and staff to maintain the extra vehicles? It really isn't so simple.

 

[geoffk]

And where does Go Ahead get the staff to run that, let alone garage space and staff to maintain the extra vehicles? It really isn't so simple.

No. Depends on Go Ahead's staff position I suppose. At some stage there may be a move of this sort but more likely a swap of routes.

 

[M60lad]

While it might be a good idea for 38 to move from Hyde Road to Go Northwest's Bolton Depot, it would depend on space at Bolton Depot and if there wasn't enough space then something would have to be moved from Bolton Depot to another Depot which could create its own problems.

Also if 38 transfers to Bolton how will driver change over's be done considering the route goes nowhere near Bolton Depot, additional vehicles will be needed for this as well.

 

[johncrossley]

If they are short of drivers, maybe they could truncate the 38 so it only runs between Logistics North and Walkden. That route was only introduced by Stagecoach as retaliation for First's surprise incursion into south Manchester in 2014 and the route from Walkden to Manchester is already well served by routes 36/37. The route was later amended to run to Logistics North instead of Farnworth so the Walkden to Logistics North bit is the only bit that is really needed. They now have the Hopper fare which means TfGM can make these kinds of changes with less controversy, just like TfL did a few years back.

 

[RELL6L]

For driver changes the 38 could be interworked with the 36/37 or other routes coming into Manchester, just like the 10 is and the 21/22 interwork with the 20 at Trafford Centre. But if Bolton doesn't have the capacity for buses or sufficient drivers then it couldn't work.

Run by Metroline the 38 interworks with anything and everything at the Manchester end, it doesn't go anywhere near Hyde Road. Run-in and run-out at the outer end, ie Logistics North, would be nearer Bolton than Hyde Road.

I can't say how necessary the 38 is but politically they can't go withdrawing services at this time.

If Metroline really are desperately short of drivers but not recruiting to solve it then something is wrong somewhere and action needs to be taken by TfGM, but I have no local knowledge on this.

 

[johncrossley]

I can't say how necessary the 38 is but politically they can't go withdrawing services at this time.

Surely removing duplication is one of the main points of franchising? If not now, then when? Now is a good time because there is no election for a long time and there is an urgent need to save drivers.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I can't say how necessary the 38 is but politically they can't go withdrawing services at this time.

Indeed - the optics would be awful. Remember how Andy Burnham would be complaining about how those awful bus companies were cavalier in withdrawing services.

When Andy Burnham promised "London-style" bus provision, I don't think that was what was envisaged

 

[mayneway]

Would transferring routes between depots help? I'm thinking 36/37 run by Go North West, presumably from Bolton, but similar 38 run from Hyde Road by Metroline. If Metroline is short of staff, move the 38 to Bolton........... but I expect that's too easy an answer!

Bolton is short of staff. They are using agency drivers to prop the gap.

 

[158756]

Surely removing duplication is one of the main points of franchising? If not now, then when? Now is a good time because there is no election for a long time and there is an urgent need to save drivers.

You might think that, but when tranche 3 started they actually increased the frequency of the 38. Why any services were increased when Metroline are so short of drivers is another question, but so far Burnham has stayed away from cutting services where duplication exists.

If the duplication is eventually reduced I expect there will be some sort of consultation and it'll be part of wider changes sold as improving the service overall. I think swingeing cuts weeks into the full franchise operation would be a pretty terrible look for Burnham and the whole idea of franchising.

 

[M60lad]

38 has also been one of the problematic routes for Hyde Road Depot even when it was Stagecoach operated there were many times whereby you would end up with about 3 buses running together and also all you need is for something to happen on M61 or any of the surrounding roads and the service would end up heavily delayed which considering the service interworks with other services ends up other services heavily delayed as a result.

 

[Bungle965]

Notice that the next stop screens now show next departures if the bus stops at a railway station.
Nice addition, although mine this morning was showing trains that have already left.

 

[johncrossley]

Notice that the next stop screens now show next departures if the bus stops at a railway station.
Nice addition, although mine this morning was showing trains that have already left.

This is a good thing, but is not an original idea. Other places in the UK have this. I first saw this in Switzerland about 15 years ago!

 

[Class 466]

Have heard that a couple of the smaller local routes currently operated by Metroline might be heading to First to cover for the foreseeable as the lack of recruited drivers persists.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This is a good thing, but is not an original idea. Other places in the UK have this. I first saw this in Switzerland about 15 years ago!

Indeed - it isn't a new thing.

 

[Mwanesh]

I don't think they're anywhere near that at the moment. We're six weeks into the largest and most complex of the tranches (which is why it was kept 'til the end). Metroline/CDG is generally well regarded as a London contractor. They submitted the best offers for the packages that they won. Had TfGM wanted to de-risk the process, they could've had a process where there was a cap on the amount of work a single party could have won.

As for handing franchises back, I'd be interested to know what the contract states about that. Usually, if you hand back a publicly procured contract (and unless you can prove that there was something fundamentally wrong with the procurement exercise), then the business can be liable for the costs of a new procurement exercise. Again, depending what the contract says, there might be the ability to sub-contract a depot but can you imagine what a rival would charge for that?

That's not surprising if 95% of your business is London based, you're going to be massively influenced in your thinking. Then again, wasn't Andy Burnham selling this on it delivering "London style" bus benefits? I'm sure that they expected a bit of churn in the workforce but clearly not to this extent.

At the end of the day, our concern should be with the passengers. Not nice waiting for buses that don't arrive, impacting on people's work and home lives, and especially at this time of year.

Summed it up no one thought about a newcomer getting big depots in Manchester.Its easy on paper but local knowledge and one size fits all does not work everywhere.I hope other regions wont make the same mistake

 

[Leyland Bus]

Summed it up no one thought about a newcomer getting big depots in Manchester.

That was the whole point about franchising, to bring in companies from outside the area and hopefully bring in their own ideas and ways of working... Clearly it's getting off to a challenging start but unless Metroline have drastically changed something folk aren't happy with (and as far as I can see, no one has given a definitive reason for all those drivers leaving) any change of operator may well have had a similar challenge.

 

[M60lad]

Interesting, what smaller routes will these be that First will be getting and when will First start operating them?

Where will the vehicles come from for First to operate the routes?

 

[Class 466]

Interesting, what smaller routes will these be that First will be getting and when will First start operating them?

Where will the vehicles come from for First to operate the routes?

As of next week a number of First Drivers are going to Wythenshaw to assist with service delivery there.

 

[mangad]

Interesting, what smaller routes will these be that First will be getting and when will First start operating them?

Where will the vehicles come from for First to operate the routes?

And where is First getting the drivers from?

 

[Marcus Fryer]

And where is First getting the drivers from?

Perhaps transferring from Metroline?

 

[Class 466]

Perhaps transferring from Metroline?

And where is First getting the drivers from?

Rochdale depot has the capacity - a number of drivers based there have been covering the 590 (First Halifax) for months now.

4 classic E400s going to Stockport from Metroline next week whilst Stagecoach assist Metroline with School work in the area.

 

[johncrossley]

The whole point of the Manchester model of full depot franchising was to allow outside firms to come into the area, introducing more competition. But it seems outside firms still have a disadvantage if the incumbents have neighbouring franchised or deregulated operations enticing drivers to leave.

 

[Class 466]

The whole point of the Manchester model of full depot franchising was to allow outside firms to come into the area, introducing more competition. But it seems outside firms still have a disadvantage if the incumbents have neighbouring franchised or deregulated operations enticing drivers to leave.

Go North West weren’t an outside firm when they won Wigan/Bolton but still faced an exodus of former Stagecoach Drivers at Wigan back to other neighbouring Stagecoach divisions. Some drivers want to stay with one company which is fair enough.

 

[mayneway]

And where is First getting the drivers from?

First are over staffed at Rochdale I believe, one of the only depots that is.

 

[Ghostbus]

Obviously it sounds pretty chaotic from an operational perspective, but is it actually disrupting services?

Come to think of it, what's the role of the Traffic Commissioner in a franchised area?

 

[Leedsbusman]

Obviously it sounds pretty chaotic from an operational perspective, but is it actually disrupting services?

Come to think of it, what's the role of the Traffic Commissioner in a franchised area?

The TC’s role is compliance with operator license requirements. It has no mandate on service delivery for routes which are franchised.

The service updates from TFGM certainly suggest it’s impacting, just as GNW in Tranche 1 and Stagecoach in Tranche 2 struggled for staff.

 

[Andyh82]

As part of a ride round Greater Manchester, I arrived at Bolton to catch a 582 to Leigh

The queue was already stretching half way down the bus station, and by the time a bus arrived there had been a gap of an hour in between buses (it’s supposed to run every 12 minutes), at one point every bus on the route was heading in the same direction

I wonder what would happen in this situation if a customer had a hopper ticket which would have been long expired?

I don’t think I’ve ever caught a 582 that hasn’t involved a long wait or buses running in pairs every 24 minutes, I think they need to add more layover slack here and not just to services that run into Manchester

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I don’t think I’ve ever caught a 582 that hasn’t involved a long wait or buses running in pairs every 24 minutes, I think they need to add more layover slack here and not just to services that run into Manchester

Yes, the 582 has always been like that, we're just lucky it's mostly double deckers now.
The same queues happen at Leigh bus station.

It wasn't uncommon to see 3 bunched together (and at once point I saw 4).

I wonder what would happen in this situation if a customer had a hopper ticket which would have been long expired?

Unfortunately I think you're just out of luck if that happens.
I'll probably always just buy a day ticket, hopefully one day we'll have contactless like London, so I can use the hopper if it works, and get the cap if it doesn't.

 

[johncrossley]

I'll probably always just buy a day ticket, hopefully one day we'll have contactless like London, so I can use the hopper if it works, and get the cap if it doesn't.

That starts on 23rd March. It is insane that they introduced a paper version less than 3 months earlier. They should be trying to discourage driver issued tickets, not encourage more use of them.

 

[317 forever]

That starts on 23rd March. It is insane that they introduced a paper version less than 3 months earlier. They should be trying to discourage driver issued tickets, not encourage more use of them.

The good thing about the paper hopper ticket is that we can see what time we purchased it, and therefore how late we can use it to board another bus.

As an aside, I hope the introduction of the tap on tap off option, with total fare for the day calculated Oyster style, will not lead to the abolition of paper daysavers.