Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[Deerfold]

It isn't strange that all the bus franchises have been given to large, foreign owned, companies. This Labour Government is closing down North Sea oil and gas so we'll have to buy from the Middle East. Why let British business benefit when you can send the profits abroad. Franchising will definitely help the people of Greater Manchester - NOT

Odd. Weren't almost all the franchise decisions made before Labour won the General Election, under rules set by the previous government?

I don't think there are any plans to close oil and gas fields early.

 

[johncrossley]

Queens road is 50 drivers short, Oldham is 80 drivers short. On the other side of the franchise fence Stockport had a shockingly big amount of work open today.

But is this leading to a large number of cancellations, or are they managing to avoid that through overtime, agency workers etc?

 

[py_megapixel]

Most of GM had cheaper alternatives to the £21 Anybus weekly. It’s now not the case.

A Stagecoach Megarider, which is the largest remaining single-operator equivalent, is in fact exactly £21. From January the Anybus will decrease to £20...

 

[Andyh82]

A Stagecoach Megarider, which is the largest remaining single-operator equivalent, is in fact exactly £21. From January the Anybus will decrease to £20...

I see Stagecoach have withdrawn the ‘7 day Magic Rider’ already, so it won’t be offered to new students this September. How much did that used to cost?

 

[Simon75]

It isn't strange that all the bus franchises have been given to large, foreign owned, companies. This Labour Government is closing down North Sea oil and gas so we'll have to buy from the Middle East. Why let British business benefit when you can send the profits abroad. Franchising will definitely help the people of Greater Manchester - NOT

First group and Rotala are British owned

 

[mayneway]

But is this leading to a large number of cancellations, or are they managing to avoid that through overtime, agency workers etc?

Some of the work is covered but not all…

 

[py_megapixel]

I see Stagecoach have withdrawn the ‘7 day Magic Rider’ already, so it won’t be offered to new students this September. How much did that used to cost?

I have no idea, sorry

 

[johncrossley]

Regarding the £21 day ticket, that has required funding to keep it at that level. Obviously the single operator tickets undercut it, as otherwise there would be no point in them! There has been inflation since the £21 cap came in, so in real terms it is a fare cut. In January, when the revenue no longer has to be split among the deregulated operators, that presumably saves money.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Going back to the days when deregulation first came in to force. the weekly bus ticket that cost £10.00 was reduced to £5.00 by the new private bus operators.

 

[johncrossley]

Going back to the days when deregulation first came in to force. the weekly bus ticket that cost £10.00 was reduced to £5.00 by the new private bus operators.

This happened 10 years after deregulation in 1986. GM Buses South was privatised in 1994. Then Stagecoach weakened them with their trademark predatory tactics, such as running a fleet of brand new buses on the 192 against them, forcing GM Buses South to retaliate on the X43 with fares that were suicidal. Stagecoach eventually bought them in 1996.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This happened 10 years after deregulation in 1986. GM Buses South was privatised in 1994. Then Stagecoach weakened them with their trademark predatory tactics, such as running a fleet of brand new buses on the 192 against them, forcing GM Buses South to retaliate on the X43 with fares that were suicidal. Stagecoach eventually bought them in 1996.

If this occurred as you say, time-wise, that would mean that deregulation took place as early as 1976, Is that really the case? Or have I mis-read the wording of your posting?

Was the £10.00 charge a matter of profiteering by the originators of that fare price for a weekly ticket in those far-off days?

 

[Leedsbusman]

Regarding the £21 day ticket, that has required funding to keep it at that level. Obviously the single operator tickets undercut it, as otherwise there would be no point in them! There has been inflation since the £21 cap came in, so in real terms it is a fare cut. In January, when the revenue no longer has to be split among the deregulated operators, that presumably saves money.

In what way would it save money and for whom would it be a saving?

 

[johncrossley]

If this occurred as you say, time-wise, that would mean that deregulation took place as early as 1976, Is that really the case? Or have I mis-read the wording of your posting?

Deregulation was in 1986. Stagecoach bought GM Buses South from its employees in 1996. After that, Stagecoach cut the price of its weekly ticket. Obviously there were still several independents operating in south Manchester, but eventually they closed down or were bought by Stagecoach, so there was no longer a need to keep their weekly ticket at such a low level after that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

In what way would it save money and for whom would it be a saving?

TfGM have to use government subsidy to keep the weekly ticket at £21, because System One is owned jointly by the private operators who decide the price. In January, TfGM will no longer need to pay off the private operators, hence they save money. It was mentioned earlier that it will be cut to £20 in January, indicating that the savings will be passed on to passengers. In addition, the £2 single will become a London-style Hopper single, but bizarrely using paper tickets!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Deregulation was in 1986. Stagecoach bought GM Buses South from its employees in 1996. After that, Stagecoach cut the price of its weekly ticket. Obviously there were still several independents operating in south Manchester, but eventually they closed down or were bought by Stagecoach, so there was no longer a need to keep their weekly ticket at such a low level after that.

I am going off what an old friend told me who says that the reduced £5.00 weekly ticket was only increased in small annual increases and it was quite a few years that the original £10.00 fare level was reached.

He used to use the train service from Timperley to Manchester Oxford Road, but when the Manchester Metrolink came into force, Timperley was a Zone 4 station, with a large weekly ticket price, so he switched over to using the bus service.

My car at the consultancy was a Saab 9000 Turbo and I had no need to avail myself of the use of public transport.

 

[johncrossley]

I am going off what an old friend told me who says that the reduced £5.00 weekly ticket was only increased in small annual increases and it was quite a few years that the original £10.00 fare level was reached.

He used to use the train service from Timperley to Manchester Oxford Road, but when the Manchester Metrolink came into force, Timperley was a Zone 4 station, with a large weekly ticket price, so he switched over to using the bus service.

My car at the consultancy was a Saab 9000 Turbo and I had no need to avail myself of the use of public transport.

It took quite a few years for Stagecoach's competition to disappear.

Not sure what the relevance of your car's model is, but even if you had a chauffeur driven limousine, you still have the option of public transport. The whole point of developing an attractive public transport system is so that people use it instead of their car from time to time.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not sure what the relevance of your car's model is, but even if you had a chauffeur driven limousine, you still have the option of public transport. The whole point of developing an attractive public transport system is so that people use it instead of their car from time to time.

At that time, we lived about two miles away from the nearest bus stop or railway station on the very rural border area of Mottram St Andrew and Prestbury, so the option of public transport either for travel or for being on consultancy business was meaningless.

 

[johncrossley]

At that time, we lived about two miles away from the nearest bus stop or railway station on the very rural border area of Mottram St Andrew and Prestbury, so the option of public transport either for travel or for being on consultancy business was meaningless.

I shouldn't need state the obvious that railway stations have car parks. TfGM have spent a lot of money on park and ride facilities at various tram stops, generally at strategic locations around the M60, plus the Busway facility on the A580. They are all free of charge. So they have made public transport very accessible for car owners.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I shouldn't need state the obvious that railway stations have car parks. TfGM have spent a lot of money on park and ride facilities at various tram stops, generally at strategic locations around the M60, plus the Busway facility on the A580. They are all free of charge. So they have made public transport very accessible for car owners.

Railway stations with car parks are all well and good if the train goes to places that you need to go to. When your consultancy offices are in the region of Over Peover, how do propose I could have travelled from the home area I have already stated to the consultancy offices by train?

 

[py_megapixel]

Obviously the single operator tickets undercut it, as otherwise there would be no point in them!

You'd think that, wouldn't you! I thought that too, but on looking into it, Stagecoach and Arriva 7-day tickets for their respective Greater Manchester operations are now £21, the same as the integrated one. As far as I can tell the single-operator ticket exists purely as a revenue grab from passengers who are used to buying it and/or assume it must be the best value option. Warrington's is £23, though that's not really comparable as they are a operator centred on Warrington that happens to serve GM, rather than being predominantly a GM operator. The other operators in the current unfranchised area as far as I can tell do not offer their own period tickets at all.

Approximately £20 for a week ticket - even a single-operator one - seems to be about the going rate in other cities in the north, so while it's unfortunate that some passengers are having to pay more than they previously did, I can only conclude that it was those previous fares that were artificially low for whatever reason and that the £21 ticket still offers very reasonable value. As I've said before, the plan is to reduce it from £21 to £20 next year, and I'd love it to get even cheaper than that (it's still expensive compared to some of our continental neighbours), but it's about the going rate, and that's fine for now.

Railway stations with car parks are all well and good if the train goes to places that you need to go to. When your consultancy offices are in the region of Over Peover, how do propose I could have travelled from the home area I have already stated to the consultancy offices by train?

I think we are going off on a tangent here. Your journeys from Mottram St Andrew to Over Peover (neither of which have ever been in the Greater Manchester area) in the late 1990s have no relevance to bus services in Greater Manchester in 2024.

 

[Leedsbusman]

TfGM have to use government subsidy to keep the weekly ticket at £21, because System One is owned jointly by the private operators who decide the price. In January, TfGM will no longer need to pay off the private operators, hence they save money. It was mentioned earlier that it will be cut to £20 in January, indicating that the savings will be passed on to passengers. In addition, the £2 single will become a London-style Hopper single, but bizarrely using paper tickets!

Interesting. I can't recall the old System One fare but say it was £22. Customer pays £21, TFGM pays £1, operator gets £22.
Under franchising customer pays £20. TfGM gets £20.
Does that not mean TfGM is £2 per ticket worse off than the operator would be? Would that not be costing money rather than saving it, unless there is a substantial saving in costs and/or a large increase in usage?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think we are going off on a tangent here. Your journeys from Mottram St Andrew to Over Peover (neither of which have ever been in the Greater Manchester area) in the late 1990s have no relevance to bus services in Greater Manchester in 2024.

Well, it was not I who made the point of railway car parks. I just made a posting response to it.

Both Mottram St Andrew and Over Peover (sometimes known as Peover Superior) are not all that far removed from the Bee Network Empire and I have been told that Mayor Burnham regards nearby areas to the existing boundary as "fair game" given half a chance (that person may have been joking).

 

[markymark2000]

Franchising has already massively helped people, regardless of where a bit of TfGM money goes.

What has changed for the better, under franchising, that couldn't have been done under the previous system?

Stotts haven’t really helped themselves. Their refusal to accept card payments and the fact most of their buses have big ‘cash only’ signs in the front windscreen doesn’t look good.

To be fair, they are using ticket machines which are owned by TFGM and TFGM refused to update to the new Ticketers. The only way Stotts could have gotten contactless is by going out and funding their own new ticket machines from scratch. This was a TFGM issue through and through. Little Gem and faced the same issue. TFGM did them over.

TfGM have to use government subsidy to keep the weekly ticket at £21, because System One is owned jointly by the private operators who decide the price. In January, TfGM will no longer need to pay off the private operators, hence they save money. It was mentioned earlier that it will be cut to £20 in January, indicating that the savings will be passed on to passengers. In addition, the £2 single will become a London-style Hopper single, but bizarrely using paper tickets!

See, you say this but TGFM had a stake in those System One meeting.

Also this £21 weekly. You're conveniently forgetting that it WAS cheaper but then increased in price back in March, WITH ZERO WARNING FOR PASSENGERS, because 'it wasn't included in the Mayors fare cap'. Then suddenly it became an election pledge to drop the price back down.... To what it was before. The fares never had to go up, Burnham wanted to score political points. What a way to run a bus network! Do we also forget to mention some of the huge fare hikes for many passengers who did used to use only a single operator? Stepping Hill Hospital Adult Weekly, currently £8.50, going to be £20 in January. £11.50 increase overnight on travel costs. What benefits will users of this ticket see? There's others but I'll refrain to stop this post being as long. Huge increases in ticket costs for no benefit (in fact maybe they will get a worse service as after all, Burnham has threatened reducing the most frequent routes so buses can be moved to quieter areas!)

Is this before we mention that tap on tap off was meant to be implemented from the start, now over a year on, no contactless.

 

[M60lad]

I don't think it was just Stockport that had duties/work open yesterday, not to sure whether it did and it wasn't tracking for some reason but it seems the duty that does 18:43 103 Airport-Piccadilly didn't operate last night.

As for Bee Network Depots being short it must be costing the companies a small fortune having to pay for hotels/B&Bs for their drivers while their down here, I know there's a number of drivers from Stagecoach Merseyside still covering work at the moment.

 

[johncrossley]

Interesting. I can't recall the old System One fare but say it was £22. Customer pays £21, TFGM pays £1, operator gets £22.
Under franchising customer pays £20. TfGM gets £20.
Does that not mean TfGM is £2 per ticket worse off than the operator would be? Would that not be costing money rather than saving it, unless there is a substantial saving in costs and/or a large increase in usage?

When it was capped at £21, it was meant to go up to £23 and would be even more now without the cap. But the real price was never £23. It was only so high because the operators had to split revenue between themselves, plus they wanted a premium so they could undercut it with their single company tickets.

 

[daodao]

I don't think it was just Stockport that had duties/work open yesterday, not to sure whether it did and it wasn't tracking for some reason but it seems the duty that does 18:43 103 Airport-Piccadilly didn't operate last night.

As for Bee Network Depots being short it must be costing the companies a small fortune having to pay for hotels/B&Bs for their drivers while their down here, I know there's a number of drivers from Stagecoach Merseyside still covering work at the moment.

If there is a shortage of drivers and additional ones are difficult to recruit, drivers need to be deployed in the most effective manner. Ways to do this include reducing service frequencies on major routes (e.g. from every 10 minutes to every 12/15 minutes), cutting poorly used infrequent roundabout routes touring multiple estates and removing evening/Sunday buses on lightly used shorter town routes.

 

[Leedsbusman]

When it was capped at £21, it was meant to go up to £23 and would be even more now without the cap. But the real price was never £23. It was only so high because the operators had to split revenue between themselves, plus they wanted a premium so they could undercut it with their single company tickets.

You still haven’t explained how this saves TfGM money? 15% more people paying £20 is required to earn the same revenue as a £23 fare, so TFGM are only better off it more than 15% travel on the same level of service.

 

[py_megapixel]

You still haven’t explained how this saves TfGM money? 15% more people paying £20 is required to earn the same revenue as a £23 fare, so TFGM are only better off it more than 15% travel on the same level of service.

I think there are some red herrings coming up here regarding fare changes that aren't helpful. Let's just use the single example of a £21 fare to the passenger where the "actual" cost was £23.

Before franchising, the operators get £21 from the passenger and £2 from TfGM, for a total of £23.
After franchising, TfGM gets £21 from the passenger and also saves the £2 (that under the old scheme would have gone to the operators), for a total of £23. So they are no worse off, meaning that any increase in ridership on the same level of service is revenue-positive for TfGM.

It's also not just about ridership - previously the Anybus ticket was allowed to be undercut by operator-specific fares, and now that's no longer the case, sales of the Anybus ticket will have increased, my hunch is by quite a lot more than 15%.

 

[Mollman]

I know this is going off topic but the phrase "undercut" isn't true regarding the weekly tickets. Under Competition and Markets Authority rules, a multi- operator ticket is not allowed to be cheaper than an equivalent single operator product.

 

[Leedsbusman]

I think there are some red herrings coming up here regarding fare changes that aren't helpful. Let's just use the single example of a £21 fare to the passenger where the "actual" cost was £23.

Before franchising, the operators get £21 from the passenger and £2 from TfGM, for a total of £23.
After franchising, TfGM gets £21 from the passenger and also saves the £2 (that under the old scheme would have gone to the operators), for a total of £23. So they are no worse off, meaning that any increase in ridership on the same level of service is revenue-positive for TfGM.

Ah but you are missing an element here. TfGM has to pay the full cost of operating the network plus the bidders margin. Assuming the network stays the same then that cost is the same regardless of fare.

If it charges £23 then it earns more revenue from customers to fund this than if it charges £21.

If at £21 revenue is lower than the costs then it has to use other revenue to bridge the gap. If it’s not then fine -but charging £23 would earn it more money to fund improvements.

If costs are constant and customer numbers don’t change then TfGM will be worse off from a lower fare as it will need a constant revenue to pay the constant costs.

So while TfGM will ‘save’ by not having to subsidise a fare anymore - that is offset by needing to subsidise the whole operation.

 

[mayneway]

Regarding the £21 day ticket, that has required funding to keep it at that level. Obviously the single operator tickets undercut it, as otherwise there would be no point in them! There has been inflation since the £21 cap came in, so in real terms it is a fare cut. In January, when the revenue no longer has to be split among the deregulated operators, that presumably saves money.

There is an identical Bee network 28 day, 7 day and day saver all set at the same price as the system one tickets. I’m pretty certain once Tranche 3 sets in the system one bus only tickets will disappear and only potentially remain for bus and tram or train travel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2024 ==

I don't think it was just Stockport that had duties/work open yesterday, not to sure whether it did and it wasn't tracking for some reason but it seems the duty that does 18:43 103 Airport-Piccadilly didn't operate last night.

As for Bee Network Depots being short it must be costing the companies a small fortune having to pay for hotels/B&Bs for their drivers while their down here, I know there's a number of drivers from Stagecoach Merseyside still covering work at the moment.

Queens road has a large number of loan drivers from south wales, Oldham has a number of drivers from Scotland.