Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[py_megapixel]

The 313 seems to be back to using the A555 today and running reasonably well, especially considering the poor weather continues.

I do still think if they're serious about getting people confident relying on public transport in that area, they do need to think of a better contingency plan for when the A555 floods, and add a note to timetables / bus stop posters about it. It's not that uncommon for it to happen, and is always going to wreck the service on that route when it does. The most obvious solution to my mind is terminating the 313 somewhere convenient in Cheadle Hulme and running a separate shuttle to the airport.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There would be few "dead" journeys at the start and finish of the service on both routes 237 and 358 if the service operator was based in Derbyshire, as for route 199.

Yes, but it wasn't operated by High Peak, both routes were long operated from Greater Manchester and were always planned to be included in Bee Network. There's nothing unusual in that, there are plenty of other cross-boundary services which were also always intended to be included in Bee Network. In West Yorkshire First had to change their services as a result of the 184 moving to Bee Network.

But yes why TfGM partly fund some cross-boundary services and not others does remain a mystery.

As with all cross-boundary routes, the funding choices will be based on the level of contribution from the other local authority and the level of benefit it brings to TfGM. You can see why TfGM won’t be interested in funding Newton-Leigh if Merseyside aren’t interested in funding it either.

 

[daodao]

Yes, but it wasn't operated by High Peak, both routes were long operated from Greater Manchester and were always planned to be included in Bee Network. There's nothing unusual in that, there are plenty of other cross-boundary services which were also always intended to be included in Bee Network.

The Glossop-Ashton service (currently route 237) was operated at least partly from the Glossop bus depot (formerly North West Road Car Company, latterly Stagecoach) until this depot closed in 2010.

 

[Pinus contorta]

Yes, but it wasn't operated by High Peak, both routes were long operated from Greater Manchester and were always planned to be included in Bee Network. There's nothing unusual in that, there are plenty of other cross-boundary services which were also always intended to be included in Bee Network. In West Yorkshire First had to change their services as a result of the 184 moving to Bee Network.

As with all cross-boundary routes, the funding choices will be based on the level of contribution from the other local authority and the level of benefit it brings to TfGM. You can see why TfGM won’t be interested in funding Newton-Leigh if Merseyside aren’t interested in funding it either.

Remember around 20 years ago walking regularly to Newton- le-willows station from Lowton on a Sunday. There are very few houses. No surprise the bean counters are unwilling to fund a bus service along this route. Extending anything from Newton means another bus and driver. The Wigan- Leigh route 610 serves a different population centre and can't be re routed.

I hope the 22 and 602 don't get the chop. Having been through all this cross boundary upheaval post1986.

 

[Statto]

At one time late 80s the 582 Bolton - Leigh had an Evening & Sunday extension to Newton, that only lasted a couple of years though

 

[Deerfold]

Yes, but it wasn't operated by High Peak, both routes were long operated from Greater Manchester and were always planned to be included in Bee Network. There's nothing unusual in that, there are plenty of other cross-boundary services which were also always intended to be included in Bee Network. In West Yorkshire First had to change their services as a result of the 184 moving to Bee Network.

As with all cross-boundary routes, the funding choices will be based on the level of contribution from the other local authority and the level of benefit it brings to TfGM. You can see why TfGM won’t be interested in funding Newton-Leigh if Merseyside aren’t interested in funding it either.

I thought the 184 was going to be withdrawn by First which led to the temporary subsidy of it and it then becoming a Bee Network route?

 

[daodao]

At one time late 80s the 582 Bolton - Leigh had an Evening & Sunday extension to Newton, that only lasted a couple of years though

Historically, from 1909 to the early 1930s, South Lancashire Tramways ran through services from Bolton to Lowton via Atherton and Leigh, but the replacement trolleybus service (the forerunner of bus route 582) only ran from Bolton to Leigh. The tram (and later trolleybus and motor bus) service from Atherton to St Helens ran via Hindley and Ashton-in-Makerfield (serving a greater population) rather than via Lowton and Newton-le-Willows.

 

[JasonL]

At one time late 80s the 582 Bolton - Leigh had an Evening & Sunday extension to Newton, that only lasted a couple of years though

The 34 went all the way from Manchester to Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows and St. Helens back in the 80s and 90s

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jan 2025 ==

Remember around 20 years ago walking regularly to Newton- le-willows station from Lowton on a Sunday. There are very few houses. No surprise the bean counters are unwilling to fund a bus service along this route. Extending anything from Newton means another bus and driver. The Wigan- Leigh route 610 serves a different population centre and can't be re routed.

I hope the 22 and 602 don't get the chop. Having been through all this cross boundary upheaval post1986.

The 610/611 cannot be rerouted anyway as people in Golborne and West Lowton heavily rely on buses since they do not have a train station yet

 

[Leedsbusman]

I thought the 184 was going to be withdrawn by First which led to the temporary subsidy of it and it then becoming a Bee Network route?

Indeed - but when the franchising scheme was consulted on it was a First Oldham route so I believe was part of the routes to be franchised.

 

[Pinus contorta]

The 34 went all the way from Manchester to Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows and St. Helens back in the 80s and 90s

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jan 2025 ==


The 610/611 cannot be rerouted anyway as people in Golborne and West Lowton heavily rely on buses since they do not have a train station yet

There was a hourly 581 service Bolton to Ashton in Makerfield that was an extension of the 582 beyond Leigh to Lane Head Newton Earlestown Haydock Ashton Cross that was possibly cross subsidised between the two authorities in the 1980's. And the 39

 

[geoffk]

Routes 199 and 394 are outwith the Bee Network.

Isn't 394 the only direct bus between Marple and Stepping Hill Hospital? Around 2/3rds of the route in Greater Manchester.

 

[JasonL]

There was a hourly 581 service Bolton to Ashton in Makerfield that was an extension of the 582 beyond Leigh to Lane Head Newton Earlestown Haydock Ashton Cross that was possibly cross subsidised between the two authorities in the 1980's. And the 39 View attachment 172631

That's true there's the 39 as well I don't ever remember seeing the 39 in Newton-le-Willows going from Manchester to Liverpool but my mum and dad told me that the route did exist and was scrapped sometime in the early 90s

 

[mangad]

Indeed - but when the franchising scheme was consulted on it was a First Oldham route so I believe was part of the routes to be franchised.

Don't know what the original plan was. But it moved to First West Yorkshire who decided to withdraw it. To keep it running it became financially supported by TfGM and West Yorkshire PTE until it could become part of the Bee Network

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jan 2025 ==

Isn't 394 the only direct bus between Marple and Stepping Hill Hospital? Around 2/3rds of the route in Greater Manchester.

it is now the only bus from Marple to Stepping Hill. The 375 used to also connect the two but that died when Little Gem shut down - TfGM couldn't find anyone to run it so there was a rejig of routes and the 385 was born that served Marple but not Stepping Hill. There's supposed to be a Local Link service connecting the two but I don't know anything about it

 

[daodao]

There was a hourly 581 service Bolton to Ashton in Makerfield that was an extension of the 582 beyond Leigh to Lane Head Newton Earlestown Haydock Ashton Cross that was possibly cross subsidised between the two authorities in the 1980's. And the 39.

That's true there's the 39 as well I don't ever remember seeing the 39 in Newton-le-Willows going from Manchester to Liverpool but my mum and dad told me that the route did exist and was scrapped sometime in the early 90s

Full details of all the historic bus services in South Lancashire (apart from those operated exclusively by Leigh Corporation) can be viewed in the Lancashire United Transport timetable from October 1962 (less than 5 years after the trolleybuses were withdrawn) available on the Timetable World website at https://timetableworld.com/uk-bus-timetables/ Route 39 ran hourly from Liverpool to Tyldesley via St.Helens/Newton/Lowton/Leigh/Atherton with 2 hourly extensions to Salford (Greengate).

Isn't 394 the only direct bus between Marple and Stepping Hill Hospital? Around 2/3rds of the route in Greater Manchester.

Stagecoach closed the historic former North Western Road Car Company Glossop bus depot in 2010. Other operators subsequently took over most of the bus services operated from this depot, apart from the route to Ashton that could be serviced from the Stagecoach Ashton depot alone without too much dead mileage. This included route 394 from Glossop to Stepping Hill Hospital, which is now operated by High Peak. After being threatened with complete withdrawal, it was agreed to retain a residual 2 hourly Mon-Fri daytime service. It is currently provided with the financial support of both Transport for Greater Manchester and Derbyshire County Council, so can't really be included within the TfGM franchised network.

 

[Cavendish1]

That's true there's the 39 as well I don't ever remember seeing the 39 in Newton-le-Willows going from Manchester to Liverpool but my mum and dad told me that the route did exist and was scrapped sometime in the early 90s

The 39 ran up until 84 i think, when it was replaced by the so called express 34. The above picture took me back, Earlestown market, wow.

If i remember rightly, there was also a short lived Bolton to Warrington via Newton express service, but the route number escapes me.

 

[geoffk]

There's supposed to be a Local Link service connecting the two but I don't know anything about it

I was going to mention Local Link as I was involved in developing it when I worked for GMPTE, as it was then (2003-7). The area maps are showing a lot of these now. While the early Local Link services offered a new facility, later on they began to replace withdrawn sections of local bus routes. This type of operation makes sense in very rural areas but I often wondered if it offered value for money in a Metropolitan area. Hope this isn't straying off the subject.

 

[daodao]

If i remember rightly, there was also a short lived Bolton to Warrington via Newton express service, but the route number escapes me.

The Lancashire United Transport timetable from October 1962 available on the Timetable World website at https://timetableworld.com/uk-bus-timetables/ shows route 50 running every 2 hours from Warrington to Bolton via Newton/Lowton/Leigh/Atherton.

However, this is drifting off topic. TfGM are not keen on longer bus routes, that used to run many years ago, in part because increased traffic congestion makes them unreliable.

 

[Statto]

The 34 went all the way from Manchester to Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows and St. Helens back in the 80s and 90s

I know that, the old 34 Liverpool - Manchester one of my favourite routes back then, however the 34 never had an Evening & Sunday route, however their was a MTL/GM Buses bus war early 90s, that led to a gentleman's agreement in Spring 1995 that saw both operators pull out of each others areas, the 34 was split at Leigh because of this agreement, also meant the 320 was cut to St Helens as well.

The old 39 Liverpool - Manchester ran until deregulation, at deregulation, the 39 was cut to Leigh - Manchester & cut a peak hour route only, & had a couple of reroutings, the 35 Leigh - Manchester replaced the old 39 Leigh - Manchester at deregulation

The 34 started out as the 6 Leigh - Manchester a new peak hour express route that started in 1983, in 1985 the 6 was renumbered to 34 & given an all day Monday to Saturday service.

Here's the proof from this great site, just scroll down to the number

Greater Manchester 1-29

RAILWAYMEDIA-British Railway Pictures

www.railwaymedia.co.uk

GM 30-59

RAILWAYMEDIA-British Railway Pictures

www.railwaymedia.co.uk

Plus the deregulation change books

GM Books, Maps and Leaflets

RAILWAYMEDIA-British Railway Pictures

www.railwaymedia.co.uk

 

[Pinus contorta]

When I paid a visit to Earlestown a week or two before Christmas a white unbranded bus appeared at the Bus Station on a 39. I haven't been back there in a few years so I was surprised the authority kept the old numbers tbh

 

[WibbleWobble]

If i remember rightly, there was also a short lived Bolton to Warrington via Newton express service, but the route number escapes me.

Service 402 : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xLvc_XgeESb4UF8CqsmQSaQJ53MjbkTm/view

At one time late 80s the 582 Bolton - Leigh had an Evening & Sunday extension to Newton, that only lasted a couple of years though

Lasted until Jan 1992. Daytime extension ran from 1988 until Sep 1992, then again 1995/1996 during the GM North era. There was also the MTL competing service in between, and even a short lived Heatons service.

It's all on Railwaymedia's Greater Manchester listings: https://www.railwaymedia.co.uk/Timetables/GM500/n-wpGQQW

 

[Tetchytyke]

I thought the 184 was going to be withdrawn by First which led to the temporary subsidy of it and it then becoming a Bee Network route?

I don’t think it wasn’t being run commercially by the time it moved to Bee Network. But it was being run by First out of Oldham and First West Yorkshire have changed the other Marsden routes to reflect that change.

 

[mangad]

I don’t think it wasn’t being run commercially by the time it moved to Bee Network. But it was being run by First out of Oldham and First West Yorkshire have changed the other Marsden routes to reflect that change.

It was moved to Huddersfield in 2023. But when they decided to withdraw, it was subsided by TfGM and West Yorkshire to keep it going temporarily until it could return to the Bee Network and Oldham depot

 

[GCH100]

The 39 ran up until 84 i think, when it was replaced by the so called express 34. The above picture took me back, Earlestown market, wow.

If i remember rightly, there was also a short lived Bolton to Warrington via Newton express service, but the route number escapes me.

The route was the 402 Warrington - Leigh - Bolton Express, it originally ran Leigh - Bolton - Bury - Rochdale but was changed at Deregulation, the 402 Warrington - Bolton, did run at least partly on a Sunday as I remember them going through Atherton in about 1986/7, later on the service was withdrawn and replaced by Warrington Borough Transport service 419 between Leigh and Warrington, but it never operated on a Sunday.

 

[Statto]

When I paid a visit to Earlestown a week or two before Christmas a white unbranded bus appeared at the Bus Station on a 39. I haven't been back there in a few years so I was surprised the authority kept the old numbers tbh

That is the current 39 which started out in 2019 St Helens - St Helens Junction, after a few changes, in 2023 it become St Helens - Newton Le Willows via Burtonwood replacing the 141, on a reduced 2 hourly frequency, & it's a Merseytravel tender & operated by Huyton Travel which is the bus you saw.

 

[WibbleWobble]

The route was the 402 Warrington - Leigh - Bolton Express, it originally ran Leigh - Bolton - Bury - Rochdale but was changed at Deregulation, the 402 Warrington - Bolton, did run at least partly on a Sunday as I remember them going through Atherton in about 1986/7, later on the service was withdrawn and replaced by Warrington Borough Transport service 419 between Leigh and Warrington, but it never operated on a Sunday.

Both the 402 and the replacement 419 ran during evenings and Sundays. 402 ran Atherton - Newton from April 1987 until April 1988, when it became part of the 582 extension.

It was split from the 582 in Feb 1992 to run as part of the 419 but Leigh - Newton only. Withdrawn Jan 1993, but Warrington registered the Monday to Saturday evening service commercially over the fill route (but not Sundays), but that was gone by the end of 1994.

Source - Railwaymedia.

 

[Statto]

Looking to future changes, i can see the X50 Trafford Centre - Piccadilly being altered to operate either peaks or totally withdrawn, most of the route parallel with the Metrolink, & the Metrolink is quicker & more frequent, the only difference is the route in Trafford Park were the X50 runs via Ashburton Road West, Guinness Road & Trafford Park Road, plus the X50 is every 30 minutes now.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Looking to future changes, i can see the X50 Trafford Centre - Piccadilly being altered to operate either peaks or totally withdrawn, most of the route parallel with the Metrolink, & the Metrolink is quicker & more frequent, the only difference is the route in Trafford Park were the X50 runs via Ashburton Road West, Guinness Road & Trafford Park Road, plus the X50 is every 30 minutes now.

I was a bit suprised that it even survived this long being parallel to the tram.
I guess maybe running to RHS Bridgwater in the summer helps it remain useful.

 

[Tim33160]

Looking to future changes, i can see the X50 Trafford Centre - Piccadilly being altered to operate either peaks or totally withdrawn, most of the route parallel with the Metrolink, & the Metrolink is quicker & more frequent, the only difference is the route in Trafford Park were the X50 runs via Ashburton Road West, Guinness Road & Trafford Park Road, plus the X50 is every 30 minutes now.

Salford council consultation wants the X50 to be diverted via Ordsall Lane and Media City - adding to the end to end time

A ‘new and improved’ bus service could link Salford Quays and Manchester city centre next year.
The X50, which runs between Manchester and the Trafford Centre, would be diverted to include stops along Ordsall Lane and a loop to Salford Quays under plans by Salford City Council and Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) to improve public transport.
Salford council said the lack of bus routes on the road has been a “long standing issue” for the area, which has a growing population and plans in the pipeline for hundreds more homes in schemes such as the Salford Soapworks redevelopment.
https://salford.media/new-bus-service-could-link-salford-quays-and-manchester-city-centre/

 

[Statto]

Salford council consultation wants the X50 to be diverted via Ordsall Lane and Media City - adding to the end to end time

A ‘new and improved’ bus service could link Salford Quays and Manchester city centre next year.
The X50, which runs between Manchester and the Trafford Centre, would be diverted to include stops along Ordsall Lane and a loop to Salford Quays under plans by Salford City Council and Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) to improve public transport.
Salford council said the lack of bus routes on the road has been a “long standing issue” for the area, which has a growing population and plans in the pipeline for hundreds more homes in schemes such as the Salford Soapworks redevelopment.
https://salford.media/new-bus-service-could-link-salford-quays-and-manchester-city-centre/

That's an interesting, Ordsall Lane currently has no buses running down that Lane, but Ordsall Lane used to have routes 70/71/73 but they've been either withdrawn or rerouted away from the area

 

[goldisgood]

Would it make any sense to extend the X50 to replace route 100 west of the Trafford Centre? Certainly from an outsider perspective the 100 doesn't seem to make much sense for through journeys across the Trafford Centre, whilst an extension of the X50 would provide faster links from Cadishead and Irlam to the south of the city centre.

It doesn't seem to be a particularly effective solution for Ordsall Lane or to meet what Salford City Council are proposing, however a route here definitely looks to fill a gap in the current provision.