Becoming a Train driver - 'Self taught'

[Tomnick]

It's only when things go wrong that they actually do anything else.

That, to me, is enough to justify their presence and level of competence, and I don't see how it's any different to the railway. Most of us charged with keeping the trainset running, I'd suggest, have a reasonably leisurely existence when it's all going swimmingly, but that can change in an instant - and that's when you want someone who can immediately get hold of the situation and deal with it, not someone who's knackered because they've been allowed to be on duty for sixteen hours previously because their job (carrying a great deal of responsibility) is normally easy.

 

[notadriver]

Dave, you could then almost say the same thing about train drivers. We only control the speed - no steering, just accelerate and brake. If I word it like that it would seem there is no skill involved ?

 

[Dave1987]

That, to me, is enough to justify their presence and level of competence, and I don't see how it's any different to the railway. Most of us charged with keeping the trainset running, I'd suggest, have a reasonably leisurely existence when it's all going swimmingly, but that can change in an instant - and that's when you want someone who can immediately get hold of the situation and deal with it, not someone who's knackered because they've been allowed to be on duty for sixteen hours previously because their job (carrying a great deal of responsibility) is normally easy.

Yes I can see your point. My argument is is that a normal day to day life of a big jet pilot is over glamourised. People think they do a lot more than they actually do.

 

[Tomnick]

That's a fair point which (from my limited knowledge of the job!) I think most would agree with, but that's no excuse for undermining their vast knowledge, level of competence and (I think this is where we started) conditions such as maximum length of turn of duty, just because they might (like most of us) have an easy life most of the time!

 

[Flyboy]

I must apologise to Mark, the original poster, and others for the thread drift, but this guy is talking such utter drivel that I can't let it go!

Dave1987, firstly, you're right about Leckies & Fairies, but you should really know that airframe technicians are Riggers and engine technicians are Sumpies, if you're engines AND airframes you're not a "Heavy" but a Split Brain!

Secondly, in a previous life I was a Fairy for many years and had a Private Pilots Licence at the time, but at no point during my time as a tecky, even though I knew the avionics systems inside out, did I ever feel that I could have climbed in the front seat and had the competence, or even the knowledge, to come anywhere near fulfilling the role of a pilot. Yes I could have climbed in the seat during flight and managed a bit of straight and level flying or perhaps a turn or two, but that's about it.

It's obvious to me that you've glimpsed a very small part of what happens on a widebodied aircraft in a long haul airline, that's all, so to assume that you therefore know how ALL aircraft work and how ALL pilots operate is very very naive. To say that "as soon as the landing (gear) is retracted the auto pilot is engaged and is not turned off until the wheels are on the ground." is almost a tabloid understanding of reality. The fact that in some airlines the autopilot is engaged as soon as the landing gear is retracted is not because the pilots want to sit back and put their feet up, it's because they're operating (and continually tested) in accordance with a strict set of standard operating procedures that are laid down by their employers and regularly audited by safety inspectors, and to do otherwise would see them disciplined. Also, to correct your autoland knowledge, most aircraft DO NOT possess autoland systems, and those that do can only carry out autolands at airfields that are adequately equipped, checked and authorised. Only a very small fraction of landings are autolands and are normally only used in bad weather or during autoland training or practice.

It's very true that nowadays the Flight Management System (FMS) is used as the primary source of navigation, but it's like that because it provides greater accuracy to both pilots and ATC in airspace that is becoming increasingly overcrowded. However, the FMS is in fact just a glorified sat nav and all the information it provides is continually crosschecked against secondary sources by the crew. An aircraft can't simply pull up at the side of the road if the sat nav throws a wobbly, you have to continue using raw data information, and that only comes with training and skill. Automatic systems are increasingly used for many different reasons; to replace the pilots' skill or allow some random technician to go flying when he should be replacing a wheel aren't included in those reasons.

I could go on and pick further fault with what our 25 year old expert thinks are FACTS about airline flying, but I think most contributors to this thread have a far better understanding of what flying involves. As notadriver validly points out, much of what Dave1987 says about commercial flying could be applied to driving trains as the two roles are very similar, but I think he realises it would be foolish to do so on a rail forum.

 

[Dave1987]

I must apologise to Mark, the original poster, and others for the thread drift, but this guy is talking such utter drivel that I can't let it go!

Dave1987, firstly, you're right about Leckies & Fairies, but you should really know that airframe technicians are Riggers and engine technicians are Sumpies, if you're engines AND airframes you're not a "Heavy" but a Split Brain!

Secondly, in a previous life I was a Fairy for many years and had a Private Pilots Licence at the time, but at no point during my time as a tecky, even though I knew the avionics systems inside out, did I ever feel that I could have climbed in the front seat and had the competence, or even the knowledge, to come anywhere near fulfilling the role of a pilot. Yes I could have climbed in the seat during flight and managed a bit of straight and level flying or perhaps a turn or two, but that's about it.

It's obvious to me that you've glimpsed a very small part of what happens on a widebodied aircraft in a long haul airline, that's all, so to assume that you therefore know how ALL aircraft work and how ALL pilots operate is very very naive. To say that "as soon as the landing (gear) is retracted the auto pilot is engaged and is not turned off until the wheels are on the ground." is almost a tabloid understanding of reality. The fact that in some airlines the autopilot is engaged as soon as the landing gear is retracted is not because the pilots want to sit back and put their feet up, it's because they're operating (and continually tested) in accordance with a strict set of standard operating procedures that are laid down by their employers and regularly audited by safety inspectors, and to do otherwise would see them disciplined. Also, to correct your autoland knowledge, most aircraft DO NOT possess autoland systems, and those that do can only carry out autolands at airfields that are adequately equipped, checked and authorised. Only a very small fraction of landings are autolands and are normally only used in bad weather or during autoland training or practice.

It's very true that nowadays the Flight Management System (FMS) is used as the primary source of navigation, but it's like that because it provides greater accuracy to both pilots and ATC in airspace that is becoming increasingly overcrowded. However, the FMS is in fact just a glorified sat nav and all the information it provides is continually crosschecked against secondary sources by the crew. An aircraft can't simply pull up at the side of the road if the sat nav throws a wobbly, you have to continue using raw data information, and that only comes with training and skill. Automatic systems are increasingly used for many different reasons; to replace the pilots' skill or allow some random technician to go flying when he should be replacing a wheel aren't included in those reasons.

I could go on and pick further fault with what our 25 year old expert thinks are FACTS about airline flying, but I think most contributors to this thread have a far better understanding of what flying involves. As notadriver validly points out, much of what Dave1987 says about commercial flying could be applied to driving trains as the two roles are very similar, but I think he realises it would be foolish to do so on a rail forum.

Oooo I am not going to continue this conversation as it could get very very nasty and very long. Even though I am "only" 25 I know an awful lot more about how a big jet works and exactly what the pilots do. You seem to think I don't know much about it be because of my age. How wrong you are. As I said before doesn't sound like attitudes have changed much in the industry so I'm very very glad I left. Never mind sorry to the OP for taking this thread off subject so much.

 

[notadriver]

Dave, how do you see the role of the train driver personally ?

 

[Dave1987]

Dave, how do you see the role of the train driver personally ?

In what context?

 

[notadriver]

In what context?

Well only if the role the pilot is over glamourised where does that put us lowly train drivers ?

 

[Dave1987]

Well only if the role the pilot is over glamourised where does that put us lowly train drivers ?

Apart from the route knowledge required I don't feel that train driving is difficult. Driving units isn't the hardest thing in the world is it. Knowledge of rules and route knowledge is what you get paid for. If I have offended any other drivers in saying that I apologise, I am merely expressing my opinion.

 

[Beveridges]

Apart from the route knowledge required I don't feel that train driving is difficult. Driving units isn't the hardest thing in the world is it.

Driving units on a busy, complex depot like Newton Heath is difficult. Especially in degraded situations e.g. propelling. Driving at Blackpool sidings is easy. I actually prefer the driving at NH as its not boring.

As for mainline driving. I've had enough cab rides to know that driving units during leaf fall can be difficult due to wheel slide. There is also the fact you have to stay switched on all the time despite the fact that not much may be happening a lot of the time.

 

[TDK]

Apart from the route knowledge required I don't feel that train driving is difficult. Driving units isn't the hardest thing in the world is it. Knowledge of rules and route knowledge is what you get paid for. If I have offended any other drivers in saying that I apologise, I am merely expressing my opinion.

I must agree with this comment as the role of a train driver is not a difficult job if you have the correct training, however, the roles of commercial pilot and train driver are similar in the context that we bot earn our money when things go wrong, the major difference I feel if something goes wrong in a train the probability of survival of the passengers is a lot higher than in an aircraft.

I respect you views Dave however there are certainly skils involved in flying commercial aircraft as there are in driving trains, OK once the data is correctly inputted into the computer including the fuel, weight, routing, taking into account the head/tail winds etc the plane can and does fly itself however I do not think there will ever be pilotless planes.

Getting back to the original subject. If I was sifting therough an application and the candidate was a pilot of any sort they would get the maximum mark for rules and regulations, working alone, working in a small team, mechanical background etc so being a pilot commercial and private will be a good thing to have under your belt if you were going for a train drivers position.

To add I think the most important factor when driving a train is route knowledge by far and experience.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Driving units on a busy, complex depot like Newton Heath is difficult. Especially in degraded situations e.g. propelling. Driving at Blackpool sidings is easy. I actually prefer the driving at NH as its not boring.

As for mainline driving. I've had enough cab rides to know that driving units during leaf fall can be difficult due to wheel slide. There is also the fact you have to stay switched on all the time despite the fact that not much may be happening a lot of the time.

Depot driving in my opinion is far more difficult than mainline driving as I have done a lot of depot work in the past as a mainline driver. It is all about organisation for a depot driving role and team work where on the mainline it is more simplistic.

 

[Flyboy]

Dave - you won't get any nastiness from me for sure, but if you post something that I or anyone else thinks is wrong then you're going to be challenged, that's how forums work, it's a discussion. I thought your original comment was deliberately provocative in order to gain a reaction, but if you really do think that everything is that simple then so be it, just be prepared for a reality check. I'm waiting for your next comment about how airline pilots only work for 900 hours per year! :roll:

Being 25 obviously has no bearing on your skills and abilities and I'm not suggesting that in any way whatsoever, but your posts above indicate to me that your wider knowledge, understanding and experience needs a little more time to grow before you can speak from a position of authority, that was the point I was making. I've flown with many First Officers of your age who are completely competent in what they do and will go on to be very good pilots, but they wouldn't dare to state that they know all there is to know about aviation and how easy it all is.

To put your comments about flying into a train driving context, it's as if you've seen a glimpse of what an East Coast driver does and then decided that ALL train driving is like that, now even I know that's just plain wrong and it would be very naive and stupid of me to say so, but I hope you can see that is exactly what you said above about flying.

Getting back to the original subject. If I was sifting therough an application and the candidate was a pilot of any sort they would get the maximum mark for rules and regulations, working alone, working in a small team, mechanical background etc so being a pilot commercial and private will be a good thing to have under your belt if you were going for a train drivers position.

TDK - funny you sould say that, but back in 2010 I failed an FTPE application at the initial sift due to a low score for "relevant skills"! :cry:

 

[Dave1987]

Dave - you won't get any nastiness from me for sure, but if you post something that I or anyone else thinks is wrong then you're going to be challenged, that's how forums work, it's a discussion. I thought your original comment was deliberately provocative in order to gain a reaction, but if you really do think that everything is that simple then so be it, just be prepared for a reality check. I'm waiting for your next comment about how airline pilots only work for 900 hours per year! :roll:

Being 25 obviously has no bearing on your skills and abilities and I'm not suggesting that in any way whatsoever, but your posts above indicate to me that your wider knowledge, understanding and experience needs a little more time to grow before you can speak from a position of authority, that was the point I was making. I've flown with many First Officers of your age who are completely competent in what they do and will go on to be very good pilots, but they wouldn't dare to state that they know all there is to know about aviation and how easy it all is.

To put your comments about flying into a train driving context, it's as if you've seen a glimpse of what an East Coast driver does and then decided that ALL train driving is like that, now even I know that's just plain wrong and it would be very naive and stupid of me to say so, but I hope you can see that is exactly what you said above about flying.



TDK - funny you sould say that, but back in 2010 I failed an FTPE application at the initial sift due to a low score for "relevant skills"! :cry:

Flyboy ok sorry I took your comments to be different to what they actually were. I class "flying" an aircraft as pilot putting inputs into the yoke, pedals and throttle. There are many examples in years gone by of pilots flying jets in a very skillful way when things hae gone wrong. I seem to remember a pilot "side slipping" a massive boeing 7xx (cant remember the exact aircraft) when the aircraft ran out of fuel. Now that is quality flying! I think the Air France crash is a prime example of how pilots either dont know how to fly an aircraft anymore or can't handle emergency situations (like I said before he pulled back on the stick and stalled the aircraft until it hit the sea). I dont class putting numbers and letters into the FMS as flying the aircraft. With RNAV systems and auto throttles the norm now I feel the pilots have simply become glorified computer programmers. This is my opinion. If you dont agree with this then fair play but please don't call me naive because I can asure I am not.

 

[doubleamber]

Flyboy,

This pay to fly lark, what is going on nowadays in aviation!!! no doubt a certain Irish carrier thought this 1 up !!

Dave,

You are so deluded its un-believerable!! If you think you can job in the front of a jet and even get it started you need to see a doctor, I only private fly and you still need to know what to do in emergancy, not saying its hard to do but anything goes slightly wrong this could be life threating.

 

[Dave1987]

Dave,

You are so deluded its un-believerable!! If you think you can job in the front of a jet and even get it started you need to see a doctor, I only private fly and you still need to know what to do in emergancy, not saying its hard to do but anything goes slightly wrong this could be life threating.

Ow please don't insult me. The start up procedure for jet engines isn't hugely complicated. As long as you have air to blow on to the high stage turbine to get the engine turning, once the engine is spinning fast enough from doing this you add fuel into the combustion chambers, the igniters fire and then it is self sustaining. I could go into the ins and outs of N1's and N2's if you want. The air comes either from the APU or GSE in the form of an air start rig. Most modern jets all of that is automated the pilot just needs to make sure they time how long it takes to start as there are time limits for how long the sequence should take.

Need I go on??

Like i said I know a lot about aircraft so please don't insult my inteligence on the subject thanks.

 

[Mark282]

Dave, I dont think anyone is trying to insult your intelligence, but your view on the subject are extremely simplified. I understand that you have worked in the airline industry so do have some experience but they really are simplified views. Very few jobs are too difficult when the going is good - Airline captains, earn their crust when the going gets tough... When there is no Autoland, the systems are failing, the weather is on the deck and crosswind is at the max component - If you have any length of experience in the industry, then you will know that these are not one off events. Airline captains do possess a set of skills that the average man on the street doesn't have. They're not heros (although there are some who are!) but they are very intelligent, skilled people in what they do. You'll note a refer to the captains being skilled, as like FlyBoy says... You can buy your way into the righthand seat. Getting into the left is a different matter!

doubleamber, unfortunately this pay to fly lark is widespread thought the industry, not just in ireland!

 

[Dave1987]

Dave, I dont think anyone is trying to insult your intelligence, but your view on the subject are extremely simplified. I understand that you have worked in the airline industry so do have some experience but they really are simplified views. Very few jobs are too difficult when the going is good - Airline captains, earn their crust when the going gets tough... When there is no Autoland, the systems are failing, the weather is on the deck and crosswind is at the max component - If you have any length of experience in the industry, then you will know that these are not one off events. Airline captains do possess a set of skills that the average man on the street doesn't have. They're not heros (although there are some who are!) but they are very intelligent, skilled people in what they do. You'll note a refer to the captains being skilled, as like FlyBoy says... You can buy your way into the righthand seat. Getting into the left is a different matter!

doubleamber, unfortunately this pay to fly lark is widespread thought the industry, not just in ireland!

Mark yes I appreciate what you are saying and yes there have been some pretty heroic bits of flying in the past, side slipping a huge jet in America is definately a classic case. In my opinion though these skills are being degraded, and I use the Air France crash as a case in point. 99% of the time big jet pilots do not fly the aircraft. Small GA aircraft and helicopters the pilots do fly the aircraft. This is just my opinion, I see many people disagree with me but they are entitled to their opinion. I know airline captains have immense experience etc but they still do not fly their aircraft most of the time. The FMC, ADC, and AP fly the aircraft from the data they have been given.

I am really sorry to the OP I have taken this thread off on a massive tangent.

 

[sidekick]

Just to jump in and try not to make this any worse...

To be honest Pilots do not "fly" the aircraft apart from take-off anyway so I see no issue with increasing air crew hours. There is no skill in flying a modern aircraft just simply entering data into the Flight management system so the auto pilot can do the rest.

Even if they do not "fly" the aircraft manually for it's entire flight does not mean they are not working. There have been several fatigue related incidents recently including one a few months back where both pilots became so incapable to do their job they declared an emergency in flight. Increasing air crew hours would be a massive issue and would make me very wary of being a passenger on most airlines. A personal friends father who is a Embraer captain at UK based airline is now working part time because the fatigue was too much. Remember most people moan about the jet lag with going on a holiday with a few hours time difference, let alone doing it every week for a large proportion of the year, for your entire life. This is not the same as someone who just works in an office doing a few extra hours a week, especially considering most people who work in offices don't have 150+ lives in their hands. However you are correct in that manual flying skills probably have decreased for the majority, and that is something the FAA have begun to try and rectify, hopefully EASA will follow (and a double wammy of effectively removing all P2F schemes will be a true winner!)

I'm not going to get involved with the rest of the discussion because you've obviously made up your mind based on your prior working experienced, however I would say I don't think it's right to preach about a job you have only seen from an outside view, no matter how close your role is. I say this as someone who has a Masters level Aeronautical Engineering degree, and I have worked for Airbus, so I think I'm qualified too! No matter what you know about aviation, from what you've said you don't have experience of sitting in the front end of a shiny tune flying a 4/5ths the speed of sound in a dark thunderstorm filled night with system failures left right and centre, responsible for 100's of lives. Unless you have spent your intensive 18 months to go from zero to line training I also don't believe you can have a full conclusive workings of all aircraft (anyone can get a pretty basic understanding of the complex systems of a few of these aircraft in after market flight sim addons, but it's still not the same!), it's like me saying I could drive a train it's 3 levers I've seen them through the window at the station. Either way, it's a good way to get people upset or annoyed. I don't mean to offend (and I can't imagine I have!), I'm only stating why I think people are getting a bit marked by your comments.

 

[Dave1987]

And on that note I think we can cease this discussion as we all know where we stand.

 

[tylerdurden86]

I use the Air France crash as a case in point.

Don't forget Denzel Washington drinking and partying the night before a flight

 

[LCC106]

I hope the OP's question has been answered but yes, agree that the thread has gone off on a massive tangent and all in the wrong direction. Forums can provide healthy debate but really, I feel this one should have been closed or nipped in the bud a long time ago!!! :roll:

Anything else we can help with to answer your question?

 

[doubleamber]

And dont forget the captain who had to side slip his aircraft because he had no fuel pumped all his fuel out of a leak on the port engine, my old flying instructor said when I first started flying, and I'll never forget it, " a superior pilot uses his superior knowledge so he doesn't have to use his superior flying skills!! End of the day flying a plane is easy, I soloed after 10 hours, its everything else you have to do that's hard, not busting airspace, navigation, radio, aircraft systems.

 

[Mark282]

I hope the OP's question has been answered but yes, agree that the thread has gone off on a massive tangent and all in the wrong direction. Forums can provide healthy debate but really, I feel this one should have been closed or nipped in the bud a long time ago!!! :roll:

Anything else we can help with to answer your question?

Thank you LCC106, but yes, the original question has been answered! I am now reading the books and practicing the tests before applying for some jobs (as and when the appear!)

 

[LCC106]

Excellent! Glad to hear it and good luck!

 

[Flyboy]

Thanks to those above who contributed some very valuable comments, I agree that we've gone off topic a little but the OP is a flyer himself so I'm sure he's enjoyed reading the thread and getting involved. There are several areas where there's a crossover between jobs & skills in the air and on the railway, so a discussion on both isn't too bad.

Mark - P2F, or "Pay to Fly" for those that aren't familiar with it, comes in many guises. I for one lay the blame for the aviation industry becoming as bad as it is squarely on the shoulders of O'Leary and his dreadful airline, and before anyone says that Ryanair has benefitted the travelling public by driving down prices obviously hasn't bought a ticket from them recently! Low-cost they certainly are not! Anyway, it was Ryanair that first started charging pilot applicants, firstly to submit a CV, then a bit more to attend a selection day, then a bit more for the interview, then a bit more for the sim test. They also have no pension scheme, they buy their own uniforms and equipment, and I believe that most Ryanair pilots and cabin crew have to pay for their own parking at whatever airport they're based at.

Obviously airlines monitor what their competitors do, and given that in 2008 aviation switched to being an employer's market, others started to realise that they could perhaps fleece their applicants in a similar way. Easyjet came up with a so-called "sponsorship" scheme whereby selected applicants would be guaranteed line-training to an operational standard (which takes about 2 to 6 months) once they'd self-funded their 60+ weeks of ATPL licence training - around £100k. However, whilst some were still in training under this scheme, Easyjet then said that their line-training would cost them an extra £20k to £30k! It would be easy to assume that common sense would cause the trainees to tell Easyjet where to go, but having just paid out £100k to get the licence, a lot decided that an additional £30k wasn't that much if it guaranteed them a job, albeit a short-term one. It was all very controversial.

Luckily, youngsters are realising that flying is longer the glamorous job it once was and also they could earn far more elsewhere, so the number of new pilots joining the industry who might be seduced into a P2F scheme has reduced considerably.