[BBC] New rail ticket system launched

[Mushroom]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7404514.stm

The confusion has begun

 

[yorkie]

firstly, I am on a mobile device and it is disappointing that the BBC site is so bloated these days, any chance of articles being pasted here (and credited, of course) to make it easier?

that out of the way, I think the article title is misleading. it's not really a 'new system', just renaming all advance fares to 'Advance' and changing some conditions.

I suppose you could call September's changes a 'new system' but it's stretching the truth a bit.

"Passengers have told us that they want a simpler fares system. We are listening and responding," said David Mapp. Erm, no David. The government told you to do it. you did not do it of your own back in response to the people you treat with contempt that you call 'customers'. Don't lie to us. And really, you are not fulfilling your obligations as you are only changing things superficialy.

"These changes will enable people to buy train tickets more easily and with greater confidence."

more easily? how? are fast ticket machines isuing APs, rovers etc? no. are the awkward staff who refuse to follow your rules on impartiality going to become helpful?? no. I will not make it 'easier', you are lying again.

'greater confidence' you say? yet another lie! the conditions are all different for what 'off peak' means, so no, we can have no confidence about validity unless we check the individual ticket restriction code. something you won't let us do easily.

you say it's not about fares but either you or XC are lying. XC put many fares at shoulder-peak time up and they said that was in aid of the 'simplification' of fares that you are overseing.

David Mapp, you euther deliberately mislead us or you are a fool. i'm not afraid to speak out against your ludicrous claims.

 

[1D53]

David Mapp, you euther deliberately mislead us or you are a fool. i'm not afraid to speak out against your ludicrous claims.

I'm going for the former.

BBC used to have a mobile version of there site, when it works.

 

[Mojo]

Ooh! Fancy seeing Cat Hobbs on the BBC!

 

[me123]

The new fares are a bit simpler to understand IMO, now that all the conditions for APs are the same (bar some FC tickets being available with a 16-25 railcard). But they are making a bit of a big deal out of it. In reality, most people won't notice much of a difference, and those who do will probably be worse off. As mentioned before, the only winners are us railcard holders.

 

[djw1981]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7404514.stm

New rail ticket system launched

Atoc says passengers wanted a simpler system of tickets

Rail passengers pre-booking trips will now be issued with an "advance ticket" as the first phase of a new ticketing system comes into operation. The ticket replaces discounted offers such as Leisure Advance, Business Advance, Value Advance and Apex. Train operators say this will make the system simpler for passengers and plan to bring in more changes in September. But the change will see an increase in charges for some who want to rearrange a ticket they have booked in advance. The number of UK rail journeys has risen more than 40% in the past decade.

Fee changes

The changes will mean an end to refunds on advance sales and, for some, a doubling of the fee for changes to journey times to £10 per journey leg. There will also be changes for railcard holders. The percentage discount afforded by Young Persons, Family and Friends, Senior, HM Forces and Disabled Persons railcards, will now apply to all tickets bought in advance, which was previously not the case. A further change is that the 50% child discount also now applies to all advance tickets.

Transport campaigner's view on new rail ticket system

On 7 September a second phase of changes will take place, with tickets that can be bought right up to the date and time of travel being split into two categories - Anytime and Off-peak. Anytime tickets can be bought up until the time of travel and used on any train without peak-hour or other restrictions. Off-peak tickets can also be bought up until the time of travel, but will carry restrictions on the time and day of travel - current ticket types which will be re-named Off-peak include Saver and Cheap Day returns.

'Not about fares'

A spokesman for the Association of Train Operating Companies (Atoc) said the move was "nothing to do with the cost of fares" but was meant to simplify the system for passengers. "Passengers have told us that they want a simpler fares system. We are listening and responding," said David Mapp, commercial director of Atoc, when the plans were announced. "These changes will enable people to buy train tickets more easily and with greater confidence." But Campaign for Better Transport director Stephen Joseph said the new system could be even clearer. "It will simplify things for passengers but not as much as I think they should be," he said. "You'll still have a situation where you'll have confusion about when off peak is, when you can get, walk up and buy a cheap ticket. "In some cases you've still got confusing restrictions which mean that it's actually quite difficult to get cheap tickets on the railway - particularly at times when people want to travel like on InterCity lines from say Manchester to London."

New ticket names

• Advance - discounted, advance-bought tickets
• Off-peak - tickets bought up to time of travel, but with restrictions
• Anytime - tickets bought up to time of travel with no restrictions

 

[will1337]

Advance fares will all be called advance but presumably there will still have to be some form of grading for them in price otherwise how will you know if you have the cheapest or near cheapest fares if unfamiliar with the fares for that route?

Edit: Just checked FGW tickets, just says STANDARD ADVANCE SINGLE on all the STD advance fares.

 

[yorkie]

The new fares are a bit simpler to understand IMO, now that all the conditions for APs are the same (bar some FC tickets being available with a 16-25 railcard). But they are making a bit of a big deal out of it. In reality, most people won't notice much of a difference, and those who do will probably be worse off. As mentioned before, the only winners are us railcard holders.

Yes, the new AP fares are a bit easier to understand. The main reason for this is the fact that the conditions are identical (with the exception of the FC fares that you mention). That said, there is still ambiguity about "suggested services" and ending/starting "short", which should have been addressed. A missed opportunity.

However, you are absolutely right that they are making a bigger deal of it. Indeed, they are confusing the issue by singing the praises of the September fare changes by saying this is part of a bigger picture.

It is the September changes that I am really complaining about, as they simply do NOT "do what they say on the tin".

 

[me123]

It is the September changes that I am really complaining about, as they simply do NOT "do what they say on the tin".

Exactly. Simplifying fares? No, only the names. The older system is much easier to understand IMO (then again, I understand the older system). The labels are quite easy to understand; easier than "Cheap Day" and "Supersaver" and so on, but the conditions still baffle me. Presumably they'll explain all these better nearer the time so that everyone is clearer with the new fares, but i fail to see exactly why the September changes are necessary or beneficial in any way.

As for todays changes, despite the apparent loss of "grading", I see the "Advance" branding and the new T&Cs being beneficial to me. £13.66 to ABD and back is a good deal, as is £8 to DEE. Maybe on the whole there's issues, but for railcard holders and Scottish AP travellers (to name but 2), the new system is beneficial.

 

[Techniquest]

For those of us who understand and know the old system, it's going to be a bitch to learn the new one. I like the current system, and do NOT want to have to learn these new tickets! I like knowing what time I can use my Y-P at (and they have to change that too!), when CDRs are valid and when I need a Saver Return. I like too knowing which tickets I can break a journey on and which I can't...

I see NO benefit for the majority of people with the new system. I'm sorry, but I'm with yorkie on this. Lies, mistruths and a waste of time sums up the new scheme in my eyes.

 

[yorkie]

Exactly. Sim..but the conditions still baffle me. Presumably they'll explain all these better nearer the time s....

conditions are not changing, and are not in the public domain, although they were 'leaked' via Avantix traveller last year.

hopefully someone will leak it again
in September.

the only other way to get the restrictions is toask at stations, phone NRES, etc. this is not what i'd call 'easy to understand'

 

[djw1981]

Yorkie, you say the only way... but RAIL, Today's Railways etc do translate them into fairly understandable terms - ok you can argue that is a specialist publications, but the advantix leaks online are hardly general public friendly.

I am sure that some guards will, nearer the time, explain to us what they understand the restrictions to mean, and after all, they are the ones who implement them!

The changes in YP ticket times was AIUI for XC only, not for the otehr operators - that IMO is what should be stopped - its should be standard tickets, with standard restrictions - i.e. in SPT land, a CDR is valid after morning peak, but a FSR CDR is not valid in the evening peaks - this can even apply on the same train, and if going to Croy, you can use a CDR, if going to Falkirk High, you cannot.

 

[gingerheid]

Whereas the times has http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1975998/Train-fare-overhaul-triples-certain-prices.html

"Train fare overhaul triples certain prices"

I suppose the truth lies somewhere in between, as usual...

 

[djw1981]

Whereas the times has http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1975998/Train-fare-overhaul-triples-certain-prices.html

"Train fare overhaul triples certain prices"

I suppose the truth lies somewhere in between, as usual...

That'll be the Telegraph then .... If you look at XC, there is a mix of price rises and price drops....but the industry does seem to be moving to an AP based model with cheap seats if you are flexible and can book ahead - rather like the successful' airline industry?

 

[1D53]

Oddly enough my Nat Ex advance for this week with my YP has a seperate Disc entry on the ticket and a 11%?

 

[djw1981]

11% Online Discount for buying NX tickets via NX website?

 

[yorkie]

Whereas the times has http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1975998/Train-fare-overhaul-triples-certain-prices.html

"Train fare overhaul triples certain prices"

I suppose the truth lies somewhere in between, as usual...

The truth? Well, having a quick glance at the article, the truth seems to be, very basically...

* XC have effectively put fares up by introducing draconian restrictions on walk-on tickets. They have done this in May, not September. The new walk-on tickets take effect in September. Therefore, XC's rises are not directly linked to the new structure. HOWEVER, the problem is that XC have claimed that they are to "making it simpler" and have therefore hinted that it is related to the fare change. XC have, as a result, tarnished the image of the whole industry and are causing people to (rightly) be concerned that other TOCs may use the September changes as an excuse to up fares by "simplifying" restrictions. NOTE: "simplifying" restrictions almost always means making the more relaxed ones more draconian. XC are actually LYING by saying they are "bringing our ticket restrictions into line with those of other long-distance operators". That is a lie, pure and simple.
VERDICT: XC to blame here. No-one else.

* Virgin are reportedly getting rid of the 8A savers from North Wales to London. Again, this is not directly related to "simplification". Are Virgin saying it is? I don't think so. But their excuse is quite pathetic, although at least they are honest. I suggest this is discussed in a whole new thread (it is already being discussed in depth at uk.railway).
VERDICT: Virgin have acted disgracefully but they have not blamed it on simplification. The media are clouding the issue by suggesting they are linked. Virgin and the media generally should share the blame for this blunder.

* Generally, there is no evidence - yet - that other TOCs are going to introduce more draconian restrictions, or abolish good value fares in order to "simplify". However, given the appauling actions of Cross Country in their attempt to make their trains more like airlines by forcing people travelling at any sensible hour in the day to pay ridiculously high fares for walk-on travel, and using "simplification" as an excuse, the media and passengers have LOST CONFIDENCE in the whole process. Until we see exactly what the new ticket types, validities, and prices are, it is impossible to know if other TOCs are going to follow XC's lead or not. This is very important. The DfT's white paper, 'Delivering a Sustainable Railway" was the catalyst for "simplification" (Yes, that's right, the DfT ordered ATOC to do it. ATOC did not "listen to customers"!). I quote "The Government wants to ensure that the fares system is simplified to make the railway easier to use and to improve the confidence of passengers in the system". Shockingly, XC have already caused passengers and the media to LOSE ALL CONFIDENCE in the system.
VERDICT: XC is to blame for the systematic breakdown of confidence that customers have in the system which has caused the entire basis of the DfT's request for simple fares to be completely and utterly disregarded. Shame on all who let this happen!

We always feared that so-called simpler fares would be used as an excuse to sneak through higher fares, and this in fact has happened."

Indeed it has. The fact that it has, means no-one has any confidence in the system, so the TOCs have already failed the DfT's brief. Will the DfT do anything to stop them? More chance of pigs flying!

 

[Ascot]

Myself i only really use Rovers and the odd Local ticket but with this APEX cheap deal it's great i think, with more Bargain Berths coming available and more Rangers and Rovers being created it's perfect for the odd jolly. However the usual Walk Up fares to London are a bit of a shame but at least Chiltern are keeping their Family deals.

Agreed though that Cross Country is loosing the Intercity Railway touch though with stupid fares and trains etc... and the whole railway is moving away from being "public transport"

 

[mrcheek]

more Rangers and Rovers being created

I make pretty much all my rail journeys on rovers and rangers of some form. what new ones are there? I hadnt heard about this!

 

[Ascot]

I make pretty much all my rail journeys on rovers and rangers of some form. what new ones are there? I hadnt heard about this!

Ones i haven't seen before are the Thames Valley ones.

 

[will1337]

I did the Thames Branches but mostly just for the HSTs Paddington - Reading quite a few times then a CDR to Didcot Parkway. Seems the Thames Rover 3/7 day is much better value though.

 

[Techniquest]

All of the new FGW rovers are detailed on their Customer Matters newsletter found at most FGW stations. The 3 in 7 costs just £40 (no RCD discount mentioned) which is good value for the area and is the first rover (bar ALR) to include London. The more regional day rangers are just £15 each, which again represents good value (particularly on the one that covers Moreton-in-Marsh, Banbury, Bicester Town and Oxford to Reading)!

 

[will1337]

3 day £40, 7 day £70
Senior, Young Persons, Disabled Persons, Network Railcard 34% off adult price.

 

[Techniquest]

Party time then...

 

[will1337]

The one problem though is on a weekday FGW's restrictions on cheap tickets from Paddington and Reading out are pretty harsh, there's just a few stoppers you can get on out of everything between about 1600 and 1900.

 

[Techniquest]

Indeed, but that's only fair to have those restrictions out of Paddington. Otherwise you'd have all of the commuters on these rangers/rovers! Can't have that! Besides, GW HSTs are full enough off London as it is for much of the peak, so no chance of leisure passengers then I'm afraid!

 

[digitaltoast]

That'll be the Telegraph then .... If you look at XC, there is a mix of price rises and price drops....but the industry does seem to be moving to an AP based model with cheap seats if you are flexible and can book ahead - rather like the successful' airline industry?

Hello there, and thank you to Yorkie for telling me about these forums.

I suppose the quickest and best way to illustrate the point would be spend a few minutes listening to my podcast, which includes some very interesting and revealing recordings with ATOC, Arriva Cross Country and Passenger Focus:
http://www.digitaltoast.co.uk/simplified-train-fares-ripoff-scam-price-rises

I was contacted by Vikki Miller from the Sunday Telegraph, who had heard my podcast and read similar travellers tales of unfair fares. Over the next couple of days, she and I put together a story (I put quite a lot of effort in too!) - which you saw above.

Late on Friday evening, I got a phone call to say she had been called back by Arriva Cross Country.

Apparently, they (Arrive Cross Country) had “discovered”, on Wednesday 14th May (over 2 weeks after I’d contacted them) an error in the way the tickets had been entered onto the system. (An error…yeah right! Sussed out, more like)

However, despite tens of thousands of people booking tickets with at least a £10 premium on them because of the incorrect fare, there was no way of refunding them apparently! So, Arriva do well to the tune of… £50,000? £100,000? Who knows.

The result is that the story was watered down a bit - I still think it’s a shame this angle wasn’t covered - I think she missed a trick there. However, I’m guessing her intervention shook them up slightly and hopefully the result will be the proper priced tickets again.

However, I have just checked at and despite them having “discovered” the mistake 5 days ago, the incorrect fare is still showing on the National Rail website. So this story may have a little further to run…watch this space!

But if threads like in this forum, and also over here
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.railway/browse_thread/thread/8082f36c75fe531a#
prove anything, it's that the simplification is anything but.

Oh, and I just got a frustrated call from my girlfriend - "aaargh, why is it so difficult to just book a ticket now?!?".

Because it was never about simplification - we're being done.

 

[yorkie]

Because it was never about simplification - we're being done.

Absolutely.

In fact, if I was ATOC I'd be very, very angry at XC for complicating fares and then blaming it on "simplification".

 

[Techniquest]

Had a massive rant about this earlier. I totally agree with the comment of "We're being done".

 

[digitaltoast]

Had a massive rant about this earlier. I totally agree with the comment of "We're being done".

Here's where we are now - phoned ATOC, passenger focus, Virgin and Cross Country.

Cross Country admit the wrongly priced ticket are STILL on sale - even though they've know about them for a week.

But here's another anomoly: Reading > Newtown: according to National Rail enquires, there ARE advance tickets available for travel this coming Saturday to Newtown. But when I or the nice man on the phone tries to book, it says "an error occured". So I call AXC and they say it's because either the tickets haven't been released or they are all sold, but can't tell me which - and yet, National Rail says they ARE released and SHOULD be available.

So, let's see what else we can buy: From the National Rail site (note: all images are < 40k)

Ouch! But if I book RGD>BHM>NWT, it's only £35.

Hmmm, maybe Virgin are cheaper - they were for my other fare...

£63.70?! The same train, same time? This is nuts! And all this had happened since the 18th.

PS - the guy at ATOC says Arriva have nothing to do with CrossCountry trains - so what does the A in AXC stand for then?!