BBC fact check: buses

[Tetchytyke]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46524510

There were 9% fewer journeys on local bus services in Britain in the first three months of this financial year than in the same period a decade ago.

The Campaign for Better Transport says this is partly down to cuts to the amount local authorities England and Wales are spending on buses.

In the past seven years, council spending on buses has fallen by 45%, according to figures released to the campaign group under the Freedom of Information law...

I can't copy the most interesting bit, the map showing where bus mileage cuts have bit the hardest, but it's an interesting article. Councils don't have to subsidise buses and now they don't have any money to. Some councils also don't want to: interesting how far Northumberland mileage has dropped since the council went to Conservative control, for instance.

It's a shame the BBC still don't have the courage to really pin the blame for rising fares and reducing mileage on ENCTS though.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Hmmm....Some of those look a bit questionable. Has Stockton on Tees really gone up?

I'm also pretty dubious about Somerset increasing as

• SCC have cut a lot of tendered services
• Webberbus were involved in a major competitive war with First in 2013/4 that they ultimately lost
• Buses of Somerset/First have slimmed down subsequently with the peace dividend but then rationalised further - major retreat from Frome area and from hourly routes going to every 90 mins as examples
• The demise of NippyBus saw council stepping in but with much lower service levels

Something looks amiss if I'm honest

 

[carlberry]

Hmmm....Some of those look a bit questionable. Has Stockton on Tees really gone up?

I'm also pretty dubious about Somerset increasing as

• SCC have cut a lot of tendered services
• Webberbus were involved in a major competitive war with First in 2013/4 that they ultimately lost
• Buses of Somerset/First have slimmed down subsequently with the peace dividend but then rationalised further - major retreat from Frome area and from hourly routes going to every 90 mins as examples
• The demise of NippyBus saw council stepping in but with much lower service levels

Something looks amiss if I'm honest

It would be really sneaky if the council included those being bused into Hinkley Point in the figures!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It would be really sneaky if the council included those being bused into Hinkley Point in the figures!

I did think Somerset Passenger Solutions!

 

[Busaholic]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46524510



It's a shame the BBC still don't have the courage to really pin the blame for rising fares and reducing mileage on ENCTS though.

You are, as they say, entitled to your opinion (a phrase I've always found meaningless, even nebulous) but maybe the BBC don't say that because it's simply not true or, rather, it's a hell of a lot more complicated than that as you, as an educated person, know well. Perhaps the BBC could also be persuaded to say that the country can no longer afford to pay Old Age Pensions?

 

[darloscott]

Hmmm....Some of those look a bit questionable. Has Stockton on Tees really gone up?

Can only assume I’m partly responsible for Stockton increasing as our X8 has increased from hourly to half hourly and service 6 introduced.

 

[philthetube]

It would be nice to see the BBC doing an investigative prog into bus passenger numbers, including the effects of free travel.

 

[mlambeuk]

York's increase probably down to the Park and ride services.

 

[edwin_m]

You are, as they say, entitled to your opinion (a phrase I've always found meaningless, even nebulous) but maybe the BBC don't say that because it's simply not true or, rather, it's a hell of a lot more complicated than that as you, as an educated person, know well. Perhaps the BBC could also be persuaded to say that the country can no longer afford to pay Old Age Pensions? We make political decisions: after all, the BBC is not allowed to say that the U.K. is apparently about to make the most disastrous mistake since entering the Great War, or possibly well before that!

I don't think the poster is criticising the principle of free travel for pensioners as such. The problem is more about the rate the operators are reimbursed at relative to the normal fare, and also the way local councils were made to pay for it without matching increases in their government funding (one of many ways governments of all colours push the pain of cuts onto local authorities).

Actually the fundamental problem in my view is trying to achieve public policy objectives while retaining a deregulated market.

 

[carlberry]

It would be nice to see the BBC doing an investigative prog into bus passenger numbers, including the effects of free travel.

Unfortunately the subject rapidly becomes very technical and would consist of talking heads from evil bus companies, some consultants that nobody understands, various government (local/national) people moaning about having to pay money to evil bus companies and some nice OAPs saying that people are threatening their bus passes.

 

[martian boy]

Unfortunately the subject rapidly becomes very technical and would consist of talking heads from evil bus companies, some consultants that nobody understands, various government (local/national) people moaning about having to pay money to evil bus companies and some nice OAPs saying that people are threatening their bus passes.

It would be a right powder keg. The very mention of a free pass in conversation, generally brings a silence over all others. The free pass has only to be mentioned in a local paper, within an hour of it being available there is the scream ‘THEY’RE GOING TO TAKE OUR FREEPASSES OFF US!!!!!’

 

[AndrewE]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46524510

I can't copy the most interesting bit, the map showing where bus mileage cuts have bit the hardest, but it's an interesting article. Councils don't have to subsidise buses and now they don't have any money to. Some councils also don't want to: interesting how far Northumberland mileage has dropped since the council went to Conservative control, for instance.

It's a shame the BBC still don't have the courage to really pin the blame for rising fares and reducing mileage on ENCTS though.

I pasted the map as post#2 but didn't introduce it, so my post has helpfully been deleted. I was going to re-post it here with a token word, except that now it has disappeared from the news report. Maybe they have realised that it was just wrong, or based on incorrect data?

 

[alex397]

It would be nice to see the BBC doing an investigative prog into bus passenger numbers, including the effects of free travel.

Or any news outlet for that matter. The only decent journalism for transport matters seems to be in the industry and enthusiast magazines. I very rarely read a sensible, objective or accurate news article about buses in local newspapers or national newspapers/websites. They all seem to spell buses as 'busses' which kind of says it all.
It seems many people in the wider world seem to think buses run to a 'franchise' by big bad money-grabbing corporations. This isn't helped by very poor mainstream media reports about the issues.

 

[philthetube]

absolutely agree, lets hope a journalist is reading this,

 

[Busaholic]

I don't think the poster is criticising the principle of free travel for pensioners as such. The problem is more about the rate the operators are reimbursed at relative to the normal fare, and also the way local councils were made to pay for it without matching increases in their government funding (one of many ways governments of all colours push the pain of cuts onto local authorities).

Actually the fundamental problem in my view is trying to achieve public policy objectives while retaining a deregulated market.

I believe he is, based on many previous posts on the subject. He has said it's an 'unaffordable' scheme: it's a point of view, one I profoundly disagree with, but he argues it well (up to a point!) His posts are always thought through, just as yours are, and that's what you want on a forum such as this, even when you come to different conclusions.

I do agree with your second paragraph, by the way!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't think the poster is criticising the principle of free travel for pensioners as such.

To be fair, I am against free travel for all pensioners. The only pensioners who should get free travel are those in receipt of Pension Credit (guarantee). The rest can afford to pay, just like we all have to. And just like the absolute poorest people, people on Universal Credit, have to pay (or can't, so never get to leave their house).

I think much of the reduction in bus service miles is directly attributable to ENCTS funding being so poor, but I'd be against funding it properly via Central Government when that money could be spent on abolishing the bedroom tax, for instance.

I also accept that any attempt to remove ENCTS- which has only been around for 10 years, don't forget- would be political suicide. A little old lady gets wheeled out to say EEEH IT'S DISGUSTING and the argument is lost, even though her pension income is greater than my net salary.

 

[jon0844]

Given pensioners have smartcards, it wouldn't be difficult to offer discounted travel instead of free travel, and allow a credit to be given if you used a bus to get to a doctor or hospital, or potentially even a shop that wants their custom. Pay to travel and get a credit by presenting your smartcard to the GP or whatever.

Then issue the same card to others, like those on benefits, in a similar way. Disabled people could potentially get free travel all the time, or only off peak (with the same refund system).

Wouldn't be hard to do now just about everyone has the means to process card payments, either via a bank or third party systems you can buy yourself.

 

[The Ham]

Unfortunately the subject rapidly becomes very technical and would consist of talking heads from evil bus companies, some consultants that nobody understands, various government (local/national) people moaning about having to pay money to evil bus companies and some nice OAPs saying that people are threatening their bus passes.

The Transport Select Committee are having a go at it:

https://www.parliament.uk/business/...s/parliament-2017/health-of-bus-market-17-19/

They will be producing a report with recommendations in due course, but now are receiving oral submissions and are visiting local areas (Leicester and Bristol so far) after having received written evidence.

 

[ivanhoe]

To be fair, I am against free travel for all pensioners. The only pensioners who should get free travel are those in receipt of Pension Credit (guarantee). The rest can afford to pay, just like we all have to. And just like the absolute poorest people, people on Universal Credit, have to pay (or can't, so never get to leave their house).

I think much of the reduction in bus service miles is directly attributable to ENCTS funding being so poor, but I'd be against funding it properly via Central Government when that money could be spent on abolishing the bedroom tax, for instance.

I also accept that any attempt to remove ENCTS- which has only been around for 10 years, don't forget- would be political suicide. A little old lady gets wheeled out to say EEEH IT'S DISGUSTING and the argument is lost, even though her pension income is greater than my net salary.

Here we go, another bash at ENCTS. I’ll tell you what, let’s abolish it altogether and see if it results in an increase in passenger patronage. I suspect, that most Bus Companies will brick it if you abolish ENCTS. You need to look at the route causes for lower patronage before you go ENCTS bashing. The causes are many. Christ, Crosville and Ribble , in an area I know well, were seeing drops in patronage in the 1950’s and some blamed this on the rise of the TV ownership and people making less journies on Evenings and Saturdays .
There are numerous reasons nowadays. Buses in many areas have given up and yet if they started to form partnerships with Local Authorities and actually listened to people, you might just lessen the rate of decline. You will not eradicate forever. The drop in footfall in town centres combined with actions take by some Councils in smaller towns such as offering free parking don’t help. Imagine though if you were sitting in traffic like a little snowflake in your personal contract Audi or BMW and you saw buses wizzing past you everyday because they had traffic priority. Imagine Bus Companies more interested in providing a service than competing with each other on routes that are cash rich. Imagine that there is a real cost to driving your car into work or town and you were charged accordingly. I’m not anti car, but until we make it easier for bus travel, Bus Companies realise that the current set up is unsustainable and Councils played their role in ensuring faster bus journies, we’ll have no alternative but to continue bashing ENCTS , will we? Oh and your comment about pension income was crass as was mine about snowflakes. Difference is, I’ve acknowledged it.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'll get my bus pass in about 18 months' time (age 60 in Wales).

I'm retired and have shops within walking distance so apart from the odd medical appointment all my travel is optional/leisure. I have a car and could afford to pay bus fares.

Should I feel guilty if I use my pass extensively and get more value from it than I pay in Council tax?

 

[carlberry]

Here we go, another bash at ENCTS. I’ll tell you what, let’s abolish it altogether and see if it results in an increase in passenger patronage. I suspect, that most Bus Companies will brick it if you abolish ENCTS. You need to look at the route causes for lower patronage before you go ENCTS bashing. The causes are many. Christ, Crosville and Ribble , in an area I know well, were seeing drops in patronage in the 1950’s and some blamed this on the rise of the TV ownership and people making less journies on Evenings and Saturdays .

Yes, bus companies would react as, mostly, what they want is some degree of stability. They may complain about ENCTS however they have to accept it and have managed it by withdrawing unprofitable routes (even if they're carrying lots of ENCTS pass users) and increasing fares. A lot of of the fuss about ENCTS now is the users who cant use it because their bus has been withdrawn, the council cant afford to replace it and nobody can provide it even if the users wanted to pay. However we're not allowed to suggest that ENCTS is at fault!
Are you aware of other reasons that caused the decline in bus journeys in the 1950s? There was a vast decline in what would now be called leisure journeys that predated the general decline caused by car ownership, oddly this coincided with a decline in cinema attendance and an increase in TV ownership.

 

[ivanhoe]

Yes, bus companies would react as, mostly, what they want is some degree of stability. They may complain about ENCTS however they have to accept it and have managed it by withdrawing unprofitable routes (even if they're carrying lots of ENCTS pass users) and increasing fares. A lot of of the fuss about ENCTS now is the users who cant use it because their bus has been withdrawn, the council cant afford to replace it and nobody can provide it even if the users wanted to pay. However we're not allowed to suggest that ENCTS is at fault!
Are you aware of other reasons that caused the decline in bus journeys in the 1950s? There was a vast decline in what would now be called leisure journeys that predated the general decline caused by car ownership, oddly this coincided with a decline in cinema attendance and an increase in TV ownership.

I did say the Leisure travel decreased and i'd also say that mass car ownership really took off in the 60"s. Most people , in the 50's had no access to a car and the buses were rammed in the morning and evenings when I started work in 1969. Having a bash at ENCTS and blaming a portion of the population for all the bus industry'' ills is just plain wrong. For starters, the deregulation that took place in the 80's was disastrous for PASSENGERS. It took nearly 20 years for some sort of perceived stability when 4 main operators grew and started to eat most of the contents of the trough. They then started to try and flex their muscles overseas with consequences for British Passengers and indeed shareholders.
By continuing to treat Councils with contempt , often being held to ransom with the threat of bus withdrawal near to election times and wanting to buy iconic Coach operators such as Greyhound, they do themselves no favours. Funny enough, they have some sort of collaboratlon in Merseyside but competing on routes such as 82,86, does the industry little favours. Merseytravel steps in to support routes like 88,66 whilst Arriva and Stagecoach feed out of the trough that is kindly topped up by Merseyside Council Tax Payers whilst having little control of their and I mean their network. But by all means blame ENCTS for their ills. I'd rather blame a disfunctional system that has been forced on the population outside of London.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I did say the Leisure travel decreased and i'd also say that mass car ownership really took off in the 60"s. Most people , in the 50's had no access to a car and the buses were rammed in the morning and evenings when I started work in 1969. Having a bash at ENCTS and blaming a portion of the population for all the bus industry'' ills is just plain wrong. For starters, the deregulation that took place in the 80's was disastrous for PASSENGERS. It took nearly 20 years for some sort of perceived stability when 4 main operators grew and started to eat most of the contents of the trough. They then started to try and flex their muscles overseas with consequences for British Passengers and indeed shareholders.
By continuing to treat Councils with contempt , often being held to ransom with the threat of bus withdrawal near to election times and wanting to buy iconic Coach operators such as Greyhound, they do themselves no favours. Funny enough, they have some sort of collaboratlon in Merseyside but competing on routes such as 82,86, does the industry little favours. Merseytravel steps in to support routes like 88,66 whilst Arriva and Stagecoach feed out of the trough that is kindly topped up by Merseyside Council Tax Payers whilst having little control of their and I mean their network. But by all means blame ENCTS for their ills. I'd rather blame a disfunctional system that has been forced on the population outside of London.

Well, that seems remarkably well balanced.... troughs, ransoms, contempt and all other hyperbole

Now there is no doubt that both deregulation and privatisation did massively impact on the industry - it caused massive upheaval and also slowed investment. That is beyond dispute.

However, bus patronage was already in massive decline. Bus fares were increasingly massively due to oil shocks and pay rises for staff whilst bus patronage was falling anyway. This in a period of utmost stability in terms of timetables, routes etc. In fact, it is this that is often cited as a problem - bus services not reflecting the changing world. As Carl pointed out, there was a world of declining evening bus use that strangely mirrored by the closure of hundreds of cinemas - perhaps a parallel with the closure of pubs nowadays?

Now can you blame ENCTS for all the ills of the bus industry? Of course not. Buses don't exist in a vacuum though and there are many other issues that are also at play. Not least the rise of internet shopping and the drop in high street retail footfall? The car focussed economy that promotes out of town retail parks with oodles of free parking? A lack of bus priority so that buses get trapped in ever increasing congestion? How about the latest wheeze - Clean Air Zones such as Sheffield where a 10 year old diesel car can travel unhindered yet a 2015 Euro V bus will be charged £50 per day? Or when I visited my home town for Christmas and I can park ALL DAY for £2 - that's probably less than I paid 25 years ago. Circumstances change and so do the pressures on the bus industry.

Does that mean ENCTS is off the hook? No, it doesn't. My elderly mother uses her pass and claims "well, I paid into it" when, of course, no one did. It was an ill considered pre-election bribe by Labour. However, the Coalition then elected to reduce funding to local authorities so they have few options. They have a statutory responsibility to cover the cost but, as with other areas, have scarcely enough money to fund these responsibilities thanks to cuts in central funding. ENCTS is therefore caught in a place where it is must be financed yet the funds aren't provided. Now, we could say "hey, let's ringfence some of the state pension to fund it" but the Treasury would never countenance any hypothecation - a precedent they will never accept. ENCTS's funding gap is clearly impacting on both commercial bus services and separately, the ability to fund tendered bus services anyway. As an example, a town service near me was withdrawn as it clearly just couldn't pay its way - the majority of passengers are (and always were) pensioners and remuneration is less than 40% of what it was. The idea that revenue could ever be increased to sustain that sort of recompense is frankly not credible.

Is ENCTS responsible for all the ills of the bus industry (or the world)? No
Is it fit for purpose? No
Does it need reviewing and amending? Almost certainly

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is ENCTS responsible for all the ills of the bus industry (or the world)? No
Is it fit for purpose? No
Does it need reviewing and amending? Almost certainly

That's pretty much my position, to be fair.

ENCTS is a statutory obligation, whereas supporting bus services through subsidy is not. Councils don't have enough money, they can't not fund ENCTS so non-obligatory spending gets cut instead.

So the daytime core routes- which have been every 10 minutes since the year dot- get the funding and the evening, Sunday and estate minibus services don't. I firmly believe these routes would operate at the same frequencies regardless of ENCTS because they DID operate at those frequencies before ENCTS.

ENCTS isnt funded properly and, truthfully, I don't think it should be. I think eligibility should be restricted to the poor. Those who can pay should pay.

 

[Busaholic]

To be fair, I am against free travel for all pensioners.

I also accept that any attempt to remove ENCTS- which has only been around for 10 years, don't forget- would be political suicide. A little old lady gets wheeled out to say EEEH IT'S DISGUSTING and the argument is lost, even though her pension income is greater than my net salary.

Let's get back to some facts. You can claim Pension Credit if your TOTAL income is less than £163 per week, as a single pensioner: if you have a partner the rate is £248.80. The credit will top it up to that rate, and nothing else. I'm on full state pension, maximum years paid in, of £604 per four weeks, which makes it £151 per week, but I have a partner and her (lesser) pension takes it over the threshold. We have no savings, and no chance now of ever having any. We are fortunate to own a house, which we can't afford to maintain properly, and we bought a new car, the cheapest Renault on the market, eight years ago with money from father-in-law's inheritance: happily, being basic, hardly anything has gone wrong with it, 95,000 miles later. My wife has not enjoyed good health over the last five years or so, nor myself for the last couple of years, and living in Cornwall entails 50 mile round trips to almost every hospital appointment, as the local NHS can't afford to staff, etc, the perfectly good (for most things) hospital on our doorstep. I'd be loath to give up the car until absolutely necessary, but will shortly have to give up my rented lock-up garage as the £208 per quarter rent (doubled in ten years) is no longer affordable. I hardly ever use my bus pass, then, nor does my wife hers, but that situation could well change in the next couple of years or so. I'll be the old codger wielding a stick and shouting (more than) disgusting should the ENCTS either cease to exist or be watered down.

By the way, if your net income is less than my gross income then I respectfully suggest you seek alternative employment!

 

[Bletchleyite]

ENCTS isnt funded properly and, truthfully, I don't think it should be. I think eligibility should be restricted to the poor. Those who can pay should pay.

What ENCTS does demonstrably achieve is taking cars off the road - in particular those driven by people who are getting older and therefore worse at driving. My parents are a prime example of this - they use the bus because it's free - like the way a 5p charge puts you off getting another carrier bag, even a small fare puts people off the bus.

Don't forget by the way that the PTE areas (and some other areas) have offered free travel for years.

So I think it's worth keeping in some form, even if it was a local area only, though realistically that's where most people are using it anyway. The people going the length of the country using it are a pretty niche case.

 

[Busaholic]

Well, that seems remarkably well balanced.... troughs, ransoms, contempt and all other hyperbole

Now there is no doubt that both deregulation and privatisation did massively impact on the industry - it caused massive upheaval and also slowed investment. That is beyond dispute.

However, bus patronage was already in massive decline. Bus fares were increasingly massively due to oil shocks and pay rises for staff whilst bus patronage was falling anyway. This in a period of utmost stability in terms of timetables, routes etc. In fact, it is this that is often cited as a problem - bus services not reflecting the changing world. As Carl pointed out, there was a world of declining evening bus use that strangely mirrored by the closure of hundreds of cinemas - perhaps a parallel with the closure of pubs nowadays?

Now can you blame ENCTS for all the ills of the bus industry? Of course not. Buses don't exist in a vacuum though and there are many other issues that are also at play. Not least the rise of internet shopping and the drop in high street retail footfall? The car focussed economy that promotes out of town retail parks with oodles of free parking? A lack of bus priority so that buses get trapped in ever increasing congestion? How about the latest wheeze - Clean Air Zones such as Sheffield where a 10 year old diesel car can travel unhindered yet a 2015 Euro V bus will be charged £50 per day? Or when I visited my home town for Christmas and I can park ALL DAY for £2 - that's probably less than I paid 25 years ago. Circumstances change and so do the pressures on the bus industry.

Does that mean ENCTS is off the hook? No, it doesn't. My elderly mother uses her pass and claims "well, I paid into it" when, of course, no one did. It was an ill considered pre-election bribe by Labour. However, the Coalition then elected to reduce funding to local authorities so they have few options. They have a statutory responsibility to cover the cost but, as with other areas, have scarcely enough money to fund these responsibilities thanks to cuts in central funding. ENCTS is therefore caught in a place where it is must be financed yet the funds aren't provided. Now, we could say "hey, let's ringfence some of the state pension to fund it" but the Treasury would never countenance any hypothecation - a precedent they will never accept. ENCTS's funding gap is clearly impacting on both commercial bus services and separately, the ability to fund tendered bus services anyway. As an example, a town service near me was withdrawn as it clearly just couldn't pay its way - the majority of passengers are (and always were) pensioners and remuneration is less than 40% of what it was. The idea that revenue could ever be increased to sustain that sort of recompense is frankly not credible.

Is ENCTS responsible for all the ills of the bus industry (or the world)? No
Is it fit for purpose? No
Does it need reviewing and amending? Almost certainly

Come to Penzance, not a holiday town, and park in the main car park for a MINIMUM £2.70 in the summer months (buys you 2 hours), £1.35 per hour in the winter months. Similar rates apply right across the county saving for the tiniest towns. This in the poorest county in the UK, by EEC reckoning.

I have to say that blaming pensioners for poor bus services is akin to blaming 'immigrants' for the lack of jobs, a lie which will become manifestly obvious in the post-Brexit world.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have to say that blaming pensioners for poor bus services is akin to blaming 'immigrants' for the lack of jobs, a lie which will become manifestly obvious in the post-Brexit world.

It's not the fault of pensioners, it's the fault of a Government who introduced ENCTS without it being funded properly.

I'm in favour of ENCTS - indeed, I'm in favour of a much wider free travel setup including local rail - but it has to be funded properly.

And no I'm not a pensioner nor anywhere near it, I'm the squeezed middle class/middle aged bloke paying for it - yet I still support it for the societal benefits it brings.

 

[Busaholic]

So I think it's worth keeping in some form, even if it was a local area only, though realistically that's where most people are using it anyway. The people going the length of the country using it are a pretty niche case.

About as many people travelling the length and breadth of the country with the pass as the number of people driving their Mercs into town every day to do a spot of begging, so thousands if you read the Daily Express, and a minute fraction of that in the real world. Anyway, anyone who reads 'Buses' mag and follows Bob Hinds's attempts to travel long distances by bus in England (and his trips are planned to the nth degree) will realise that only a masochist would attempt such a thing, given all the things that can (and frequently do) go wrong.

 

[Busaholic]

It's not the fault of pensioners, it's the fault of a Government who introduced ENCTS without it being funded properly.

I'm in favour of ENCTS - indeed, I'm in favour of a much wider free travel setup including local rail - but it has to be funded properly.

And no I'm not a pensioner nor anywhere near it, I'm the squeezed middle class/middle aged bloke paying for it - yet I still support it for the societal benefits it brings.

Good for you - I was one of those once myself, and I know I'd have supported it then.