BBC Documentary 'The Railways'

[richw]

Having only just watched it on Iplayer, I feel although possibly not the correct process, the passenger with the "stolen" ticket was dealt with in a sensible manner.
Having worked in conflictual situations, in many situations your safety is number one, and if you have a potentially dangerous situation just let the passenger off at the next stop and call ahead and alert the station staff, and leave it for the station staff. They havent got fines of £100s a minute for delays neither.
What we also didnt see was if the first class passenger had given it to his friend after a ticket check, and then a second ticket check had left first class passenger in the muck, so he had to claim his ticket was stolen.

 

[Wyvern]

To add to the discussion, there would have been notices arund the station warnibg that filming was going on, so people could keep out of the way if they wanted.

I was on the Matlock train one day ehen the BBC were filming Pete Waterman. Even though I was in the next coach, the TV crew came through the whole train asking people if they minded them filming.

(Though I'm not sure what you could do if you were the one person who did mind except lock yourself in the khazi.)

 

[High Dyke]

Having worked in conflictual situations, in many situations your safety is number one, and if you have a potentially dangerous situation just let the passenger off at the next stop and call ahead and alert the station staff, and leave it for the station staff. ...

It's a pity EMT don't do that when it comes to dumping offending passengers at unstaffed stations and leaving NR signallers to bear the wrath of the irate person.

 

[Ferret]

Richw, he didn't just let him get off, he asked him to leave - which totally and completely undermines your argument about avoiding conflict.

As for 'leaving it to the station staff', they very rarely get involved. Far more important to them is the safe dispatch of trains rather than dealing with revenue issues, which of course is one of the things a Train Manager is paid to deal with....
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It's a pity EMT don't do that when it comes to dumping offending passengers at unstaffed stations and leaving NR signallers to bear the wrath of the irate person.

You sound as though you are speaking from bitter experience!

 

[richw]

Richw, he didn't just let him get off, he asked him to leave - which totally and completely undermines your argument about avoiding conflict.

As for 'leaving it to the station staff', they very rarely get involved. Far more important to them is the safe dispatch of trains than dealing with revenue issues, which of course is one of the things a Train Manager is paid to deal with....
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You sound as though you are speaking from bitter experience!

ask him to leave and thats the end of it if he accepts to leave, if he stays have the cavalry ready for him which could make the situation escalated to considerably greater.
When I say station staff I refer to gateline, RPIs who seem to be everywhere at stations these days, He wont be able to leave the station without a ticket.

 

[Ferret]

ask him to leave and thats the end of it if he accepts to leave, if he stays have the cavalry ready for him which could make the situation escalated to considerably greater.

Part of the reason we are told not to ask somebody to leave over revenue is *because* of the potential for conflict arising from that. And like I say, if you're paid to deal with an issue, why do you want to pass it on to somebody who may not be trained to deal with it? I have to admit I have a right bee in my bonnet about this one, because it was just so damned unprofessional.

 

[High Dyke]

You sound as though you are speaking from bitter experience!

Not personally...they probably think better than to start on a cantankerous git like me...lol

However a couple of colleagues have suffered physical assault at a couple of locations due to miscreants being dumped at unstaffed stations instead of guards summoning the police or taking them onto a staffed station where assistance may be more readily available.

That said when the wife got sexually assaulted whilst doing a ticket check on the train the offenders were readily dealt with by the police / station staff / courts. Even her manager was sympathetic.

 

[Diplodicus]

As a regular and frequent traveller, my experiences lead me to conclude that it it is mostly polite middle-aged businessmen that are expected to cough up if they're on the "wrong train" or hold an invalid ticket. The train manager will conclude that mostly these are the people least likely to be physically threatening (I know that theare psychotics in suits) and also are least likely to elicit sympathy.

As a pensioner, I have watched other pensioners put in Oscar standard performances to avoid incurring additional ticket costs when, from the subsequent demeanour, they knew damn well what they were doing.

Before writing me off as a fascist, please bear in mind those people who, having missed the train for the advance ticket journey, simply buy a full fare replacement or delay their trip until they can afford to travel. This is what I used to do but never again.

What's good for the gander, encourages this goose to enjoys similar benefits.

 

[richw]

I have to admit I have a right bee in my bonnet about this one, because it was just so damned unprofessional.

I disagree, it was not unprofessional in my opinion. I've hears too much of staff having difficulty with rogue passengers, and by following this example will reduce such difficulties. The approach seen had the best result for nearly all parties. TM had an easy life, passenger got a free ride, other passengers werent impacted, only negatives I see is lost revenue, and a few people on here getting their backs up.

We also dont know what the TM did off camera.did he have the BTP waiting at Crewe? did he take details and report for prosecution. TV editing doesnt allow us to see whether any of this happened. Unless someone can provide evidence none of this happened I dont think it is any where near acceptable to be slating the TM.
Also he isnt going to say "Get off at Crewe, I'll have BTP waiting for you" Come across nice to the rogue, have BTP waiting, but passenger wont suspect as he sees you as being so nice.

Also alerting the passenger to BTP waiting at Crewe could be seen as Tipping off, which is an offence for the guard to commit should the offence be fraud.

Tipping off.



Under section 93D of the CJA88 (as inserted by section 32 CJA93); and

Section 36(1) and (2) of the Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995; and

Section 17 of the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989, (as amended by section 50 CJA93).

The requirement to report suspicions is not much use if the suspected person is tipped off to the fact that s/he is under investigation. In order to preserve the integrity of an investigation, the offence of ‘tipping off’ occurs when information or any other matter which might prejudice the investigation is disclosed to the suspect of the investigation (or anyone else) by someone who knows or suspects (or, in the case of terrorism, has reasonable cause to suspect) that: the police have been informed of suspicious activities, or a disclosure has been made to another employee under internal reporting procedures.



The penalty for tipping off is the same as for the failure to disclose offence.

Penalty for the disclosure offence is

The penalty for commission of an offence under this section is imprisonment of up to six months, or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or both, on summary conviction. On conviction on indictment, the penalty is imprisonment of up to five years, or a fine, or both

 

[jon0844]

As a pensioner, I have watched other pensioners put in Oscar standard performances to avoid incurring additional ticket costs when, from the subsequent demeanour, they knew damn well what they were doing.

Young ladies that are not too unattractive can also flirt their ways out of many situations.

It's just the way things are.

(Mind you, a flirtatious girl might find that a female RPI will take a rather different view!)

I always laugh when I see old people being given special treatment as they could have been total ar**holes for their whole lives and then reached that magical day where you have to be nice to them because they're old! That guy let off the train with the dodgy ticket - he'll be old one day!

 

[richw]

(Mind you, a flirtatious girl might find that a female RPI will take a rather different view!)

Depends which way inclines the female RPI is.

 

[jon0844]

Well I did say might, on the assumption that not every female is a lesbian (contrary to what certain films might suggest)

 

[telstarbox]

I thought it was good to see a woman on the engineering side - maybe it will inspire more young women to consider a career in civil engineering.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I thought it was good to see a woman on the engineering side - maybe it will inspire more young women to consider a career in civil engineering.

There's a few coming round at the moment. We have about 40 on my course (in my year there may be more) and my other half is also doing civil engineering at university. Cant see her working in railway industry mind :P

 

[the sniper]

Also alerting the passenger to BTP waiting at Crewe could be seen as Tipping off, which is an offence for the guard to commit should the offence be fraud.

You're kidding, right?

That isn't relevant. What next, do you think a Guard in that situation is going to get done under S5 POA, because they've alarmed the fare evader by threatening them with the arrival of the BTP!

Interesting how things differ between TOCs. Where I am (as a suburban guard, rather than 'Intercity') it's pretty much company policy to ask the person to leave the train if they're can't pay/won't pay. We get emails to tell us where people have been 'thrown off' (i.e. asked to leave) and descriptions of them! The thinking seems to be that if you're away from BTP, it's best just to inconvenience the fare evader as much as possible (by prolonging their journey) without getting into conflict.

Saying that, maybe it's because between stations on my routes you don't have enough time to get out a UPFN pad, let alone bugger about taking fake addresses...

 

[richw]

You're kidding, right?

That isn't relevant. What next, do you think a Guard in that situation is going to get done under S5 POA, because they've alarmed the fare evader by threatening them with the arrival of the BTP!

No I am not kidding.
It is very relevant where a criminal offence of fraud has occured.
I'd hope any guard who is dealing with a possible fraudster is made aware of such laws and punishments for tipping off by their TOC. It is very possible that this could be a situation that arises. I very much doubt a TM would be prosecuted, but it is a possibility, and I'd hope any rail staff dealing with potential ticket fraud is aware of such offences.

 

[Buttsy]

richw is correct, tipping off can lead to a 5 year prison sentence in teh worst case. I know a fair bit about it having done a number of bank's fraud training tests. In this instance it appears to be more theft rather than fraud.

 

[the sniper]

The day a Guard gets done for that in these circumstances, I'll eat the arresting/reporting Constable's Custodian...

Isn't tipping mainly to do with money laundering anyway or the handling of proceeds of crime? Is it definitely applicable to a case of fraud by false representation in these circumstances? How would telling the suspect that the Police will be at the next station meeting them be any different from just arriving at the station and the Police meeting them, how has the investigation been prejudiced by this?

The possibility of the Guard being done for Tipping is even less likely when the suspect probably wouldn't have even been done for Fraud, and the BTP PC dealing with the situation at Crewe would never in a million years be thinking about doing the Guard for Tipping, that's if they'd ever heard of the offence!

 

[Starmill]

I wonder if she travels on Christmas Day? Oh wait, she can't because there are no trains..










SORRY!!

And whoever said 4 hours? It's going to take a lot longer than that if she's using the tram to get to Piccadilly, with the state of the Eccles Line's timetable at the moment! It was always weak, but since the Drolyseden opening its just falling apart on a daily basis.

Or does she get taxis? And does the beeb pay for them!?

SORRY!!

 

[BuhSnarf]

I do enjoy the hypocrisy on here sometimes, how many times are posters told they can't question things as they weren't there?

That's only if the railwayman is being accused of being heavy handed.

If it's a tm who works for old Richard then they'll bey for his blood!

Poor guy!

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[richw]

The day a Guard gets done for that in these circumstances, I'll eat the arresting/reporting Constable's Custodian...

Isn't tipping mainly to do with money laundering anyway or the handling of proceeds of crime? Is it definitely applicable to a case of fraud by false representation in these circumstances? How would telling the suspect that the Police will be at the next station meeting them be any different from just arriving at the station and the Police meeting them, how has the investigation been prejudiced by this?

The possibility of the Guard being done for Tipping is even less likely when the suspect probably wouldn't have even been done for Fraud, and the BTP PC dealing with the situation at Crewe would never in a million years be thinking about doing the Guard for Tipping, that's if they'd ever heard of the offence!

I'm fully in agreement with you, but felt it appropriate to raise as a really jobsworth officer could follow through with such a case. Tipping off is applicable to any fraud investigation, not just money laundering.

 

[Ferret]

I disagree, it was not unprofessional in my opinion. I've hears too much of staff having difficulty with rogue passengers, and by following this example will reduce such difficulties. The approach seen had the best result for nearly all parties. TM had an easy life, passenger got a free ride, other passengers werent impacted, only negatives I see is lost revenue, and a few people on here getting their backs up.

We also dont know what the TM did off camera.did he have the BTP waiting at Crewe? did he take details and report for prosecution. TV editing doesnt allow us to see whether any of this happened. Unless someone can provide evidence none of this happened I dont think it is any where near acceptable to be slating the TM.
Also he isnt going to say "Get off at Crewe, I'll have BTP waiting for you" Come across nice to the rogue, have BTP waiting, but passenger wont suspect as he sees you as being so nice.

We'll have to agree to disagree, but you are so wrong on this, and I've highlighted to you the reasons why you are wrong. If you can't see that, then that is your perogative, but your arguments repeatedly contradict themselves I'm afraid. For instance, you talk of people having problems with rogue passengers, but don't recognise that passing them on to somebody else still doesn't help, and in fact increases the likelihood of the next person having greater difficulties!

We know he didn't take details and report for prosecution because he would not be evicting the passenger if he'd done so. We saw part of an exchange on the platform which suggested BTP weren't called at the time. Now, even his own colleagues are criticising him openly per a post from Pumbaa - that should tell you all you need to know. I strongly suspect that subsequently the BTP have investigated, hence the pixellating of his face in the footage, which is at least something.

You are at least right on one thing though - never threaten them with the Police - something else that's likely to get people's backs up and risk an assault - regardless of the legalities.

 

[BuhSnarf]

But remember the guy did have a ticket - just no YP railcard to accompany it. Likelyhood is that BTP wouldn't have done anything apart from slap his wrist - not exactly a high profile call out and as has been said we don't know whether in the 10 minutes he left the guy we don't know whether he called ahead and was told no one would attend.

In terms of it putting him in a confrontation situation - it didn't. He'd obviously made the judgement call based on behaviour so far. Also the polite way he dealt with him avoided that conflict. Again, we're not seeing the whole exchange so hard to fully comment.

In terms of from a "looking good from a TV PoV" if he knew btp wouldn't attend then we would have just watched a guy get free travel from man picc (?) to Euston with no consequences which would have probably caused more outrage than few people on a niche forum.

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[Ferret]

So he had no valid ticket then, if he had no railcard!

And it did create a conflict - what was all that on the platform regarding 'I'm doing you a favour' and 'millitant TMs' if there was no conflict?

Keep digging!

As for BTP, you don't need them to do much. If you tell BTP that you just want their assistance to verify details of the fare-evader, they are more than happy because it means they don't have to do the paperwork!

 

[bnm]

Now, even his own colleagues are criticising him openly per a post from Pumbaa - that should tell you all you need to know.

And that is what I find particularly unsavoury. In addition to the speculation about the chain of events from the critical posters here. As far as I can see this TM has broken no laws, safety or other rules. A suspected fare dodger was asked to leave a train and said suspected fare dodger did just that.

You weren't there, Pumbaa wasn't there. And yes, I wasn't there. Neither were any of us in the editing suite to see all that was recorded by Century Films.

Despite this it appears to be open season on this Train Manager, at least from some quarters. I feel really sorry that he has colleagues in the industry that feel it is okay to publicly criticise him, based on the flimsiest of evidence - a short sequence in a documentary where all the interaction was either not recorded or not broadcast.

Go find him in his mess room and tear him off a strip if it'll make you feel better. But at least listen to his side of the story before doing so, and find out if his actions led to any criticism or sanction from his superiors.

Maybe, just maybe, the suspected fare dodger went and bought the correct ticket and caused no further problem for VT staff. Or left railway premises having learnt that he won't get to his destination in future if he tries to blag. I'll head off the criticism that such speculation is naïve by pointing out these are just as possible as all the other scenarios posited by those critical of the TMs actions.

I'll reiterate; enough of the criticism of this TM. It really is unsavoury, particularly coming from industry colleagues. People in glass houses....

 

[Ferret]

bnm - of course he'll get to his destination - that's what dodgers do; just jump on the next train. If you do throw them off, you're only extending their journey time. No big deal for a determined dodger really! I'm sorry bnm, but that sequence told me enough to know that he hadn't done his job properly - you aren't talking to somebody with no experience of the job here, you're talking to somebody with well over a decade of railway experience.

With regard to your first point, our Head of Security questioned whether we have the legal authority to throw people off over ticketing issues. I'd not like to comment on that, but the instructions we have are NOT to evict people over ticketing matters. They are unequivocal - those who are successful when the latest positions are filled will learn that on their training course in the coming months.

Lastly, that TM did rather set himself up for criticism by criticising other TMs on the show. The fact that he was doing so having not done his job correctly left him wide open to ridicule.

Of course, what you and some others fail to appreciate is that going around like Rambo throwing off faredodgers is bound to eventually result in far more than somebody shouting the odds at you on Crewe station. And, staff don't always receive support when they are assaulted, especially when they contribute to it by their own actions. Whether you find it unsavoury is of little consequence; I actually hope that TM reads what's been said here and elsewhere and learns what he did wrong and why it's wrong. Before he learns the hard way.

 

[SJN]

Hi. I started my conductor training course last week and at present am learning the rule book. I haven't covered enough to know the correct way of handling this matter but, we have been told that our own safety is the most important thing. Is it better then, if someone refuses to pay, to just leave them and try and get BTP to be there when we arrive at destination?

 

[GNER 373]

Just to bring a little clarification to what has been said about the rules/guidelines of what a TM is expected to do, for the (deliberately unnamed) TOC I work for currently, we were told in our training that TM's/RPI's have what's called a 'Duty of Care' which includes the safe passage of ALL passengers between point A and point B. This goes for people with tickets or without.

If a passenger does not have a valid ticket and no means of payment, then details should then be obtained from that person(s). The details are checked and verified and then they are handed a UPFN or in more serious cases reported for fare evasion and/or ticket fraud via a TIR report that is submitted to a Revenue Department. The person is then handed Zero Fare tickets that are then that persons means of travelling on the same service to wherever they need to be. This is Duty of Care. It is done because if for instance that person was put off the train and then died or fell onto the tracks, then that member of staff who chose to throw them off would be accountable for the death of a passenger. A bit of a stretch of the imagination granted but believe me it's true.

In regards to the BTP being called, only if the person refuses or continually gives wrong details or becomes abusive or threatening do you contemplate getting them involved.

That's it in black and white. Which I think is what Ferret and others are getting at.

However...and here's the greyish area, TM's do a lot of tasks on board none more so than getting trains safely in and out of stations. They do not have ample amounts of time to do thier safety critical jobs AND deal with passengers intent on travelling for free. A lot of TM's find it easier to ask the person to leave the service by their own accord or leave it for RPI's or BTP to deal with at a later point. Getting details is sometimes a long, arduous and tricky task at the best of times so being between say DHM and NCL is very difficult for a TM to do alongside all of the other tasks in hand which is why they sometimes choose this route of detraining the guilty party and informing station staff of their whereabouts.

It isn't exactly by the book but some like to live an easier existence. And I think that this is where the split in opinion has been highlighted in the thread.

As for me I'll sit on the fence on this one!

 

[Ferret]

Hi. I started my conductor training course last week and at present am learning the rule book. I haven't covered enough to know the correct way of handling this matter but, we have been told that our own safety is the most important thing. Is it better then, if someone refuses to pay, to just leave them and try and get BTP to be there when we arrive at destination?

I find it's better to get BTP at their destination if needs be. Takes all of the conflict out of the situation, and reduces the risk to yourself. Never threaten them with it though - aside from richw's point about the legalities of doing that, you look like a right berk if they don't show up!

 

[ainsworth74]

Never threaten them with it though - aside from richw's point about the legalities of doing that, you look like a right berk if they don't show up!

You also end up looking like a berk if you threaten to call the BTP and then decide that the tickets which you've been arguing are invalid, to the point that you're threatening to call the BTP, are in fact valid and that you have been wrong this entire time.