BBC article on other ambitious infrastructure projects (Includes Welwyn)

[LNW-GW Joint]

I thought 4-tracking was at one point supposed to have been a CP5 or medium-term project. It will definitely have to be in place for Huntingdon North (Alconbury Weald) when that comes around. There's only one rail overbridge on that stretch, a 3-track iron bridge over Ermine Street in Huntingdon which will require another span immediately to the town side, or replacement. Which is likely to be disruptive. Only a few overhanging structures in the north of Huntingdon and the south of Peterborough (and I am not referring to the catenary!). Embankments will also need to be built up or dug out; some work but not too major an upheaval.

Do the OHLE masts foul the old 4-track route?
If so that would mean massive disruption to rebuild the structures further back and rewire them.

 

[YorkshireBear]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23672538

More proposals in a similar article today.

Cannot quote from phone apologies.

 

[tbtc]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23672538

More proposals in a similar article today.

Cannot quote from phone apologies.

Here's the article for anyone else on a mobile:

Here are five more projects that are either much desired or slices of blue sky thinking.

Ireland tunnel

A tunnel or bridge between Britain and Ireland has been discussed for decades. It would boost tourism and business activity on both sides of the Irish Sea, supporters argue. But what about the engineering?

A tunnel could provide an alternative to crossing the often choppy Irish Sea
Bridges are normally cheaper. But a UK-Ireland bridge would have to be long. Donghai Bridge at 20.2 miles linking Shanghai and offshore Yangshan is sometimes called the longest sea bridge. In the most realistic locations, a bridge to Northern Ireland or the Republic would be even longer.

A 21-mile bridge from Galloway in Scotland to Northern Ireland was proposed in 2007. Think-tank the Centre for Cross Border Studies put forward the proposal to provide international rail links that could compete with air services.

The Chambers of Commerce of Ireland called in 2005 for a part tunnel, part bridge link to carry trains between Tuskar, County Wexford, in Ireland and Pembrokeshire in Wales. Three-quarters of Irish firms surveyed at the time said that a fixed link with Europe was vital.

The Irish Academy of Engineers has envisaged a 50-mile rail tunnel with a journey time from Dublin to Pembrokeshire of 70 minutes.

Four main routes have been proposed. Two run from Scotland to Northern Ireland - Campbeltown to County Antrim, or Stranraer to Belfast.

Two run from Wales to the Republic, a northern and southern route, where the Welsh peninsula juts into the Irish Sea.

There is controversy over plans for new airport runways in south-east England. But how would the public solve the problem of overcrowding at Heathrow and elsewhere?

From constructing seven runways at Heathrow to banning night flights, we have taken suggestions from ordinary people and had them analysed by various experts.

Bill Grose, former chairman of the British Tunnelling Society, says there are two critical issues for siting the tunnel. First, the location that most supports transport demand, and how well served that location is by rail and road links. Second, the shortest distance across the sea.

Holyhead to Dublin is about 50 miles of water, Fishguard to Waterford is about 45 miles and Stranraer to Belfast is about 20 miles. Kintyre to County Antrim is only 12 miles but is an isolated part of Scotland that would need transport links to be cut through mountainous terrain.

The most financially viable appear to be those from Wales to the Republic, Grose says. "Intuitively Holyhead to Dublin is a more preferable route than the others. It's closer to Manchester and Liverpool and connects straight into Dublin."

Rail rather than road would be more realistic both financially and from an engineering point of view, he says. Rail tunnels cost about £60m a kilometre (accounting for one tunnel in each direction).

Road tunnels need to be about 50% bigger and a tunnel between Holyhead and Dublin would need a ventilation island halfway, which would not be cheap. With the Channel Tunnel historically struggling to make money on a much bigger catchment area - the UK and continental Europe - many will doubt whether there is really the business case for the tunnel.

Also, the benefits would be much greater in Ireland, which would gain a through-route to continental Europe, than in Britain, that would only gain a route to Ireland. The Irish government would be called on to provide at least half the cost, something that might seem unlikely in these straitened times.

Cost: Bridge at £3.5bn (2007 estimate by Centre for Cross Border Studies), tunnel much more

Aerial cycle highways for London


Cycling is booming in London. So much so that at busy times cyclists account for a quarter of all rush hour traffic in central London.

In certain places, such as Southwark Bridge and Theobald's Road, cyclists made up more than 60% of traffic at peak times. London's population is expected to grow by another million people in the next decade.

Sam Martin, director at Exterior Architects, says new space needs to be found for cyclists. His Skycycle idea is for a network of elevated routes that would run over train lines run by Network Rail.

Bikes would remain on the roads. But SkyCycle will bring in a new type of cyclist - people who want a direct route into work and those who feel unsafe cycling on busy London streets.

The highways would be 14m wide, accommodating three or four cyclists abreast in each direction. Lifts and ramps would get cyclists up to the cycleway.

The first route to be planned is a 6.5km artery from the Olympic Park at Stratford in East London to Liverpool Street in the City. It would be able to deliver up to 5,000 cyclists an hour in and out of central London and would cost about £200m to build, Martin predicts.

It sounds a lot but compared with Crossrail is small beer, he argues. The scheme would be operated by Transport for London with cyclists paying by Oyster swipe card, although charges would be lower than Tube fares. Other routes from north, south and west London would follow, he says.

"It's not for your local journey down to the corner shop. It's for people commuting to work or for families at weekends who want to visit the markets." Martin is working with Foster and Partner architects on the project and he says Mayor Boris Johnson is supportive, although no funds have been allocated.

"If we get political will behind it in the next few months, the first one could open in five to six years," Martin says.

But not everyone is convinced. Sustrans, the transport charity says although an impressive "statement of intent", the scheme is likely to cost too much if it comes from existing cycling expenditure. Better to improve the safety of road junctions, for example by creating roundabouts that give cyclists priority over cars.

"You can do more by helping people at ground-level," says Huw Davies, Sustrans network director. "It's less sexy to sort out a traffic junction than to build something in the sky."

Cost: £200m for first 6.5km artery

Hull to Liverpool rail line (with Trans-Pennine tunnel)

A trans-Pennine railway tunnel ran from Derbyshire to South Yorkshire until 1981
To go from Hull to Liverpool takes three or three and a half hours and involves changing in Manchester or Sheffield. Yet it is only 110 miles. London to Derby, at about the same distance, takes half that time and there's no need to change. If the north of England's economy is to be boosted - one of the aims of HS2 - then there should be a new route from Hull to Liverpool, says rail expert Christian Wolmar.

Better this than cutting relatively quick journey times from London north, he says. "That would be far more transformative than a high speed link with London which might just suck firms away from the north." The line should provide better services between Manchester and Leeds. The cities lie only about 40 miles apart but the service is notoriously slow - between 54 minutes and 1 hour 36 minutes, despite being direct.

Wolmar would like to see fast trains between the two cities every 10 minutes. There are plans to electrify the line already but not to speed it up, he says. Crucial to speeding up the Leeds-Manchester line would be new tunnels through the Pennines capable of taking fast trains.

Cost: £1bn-plus

Severn Barrage

With the second highest tidal range on the planet - 14m at spring tides - the Severn estuary has huge potential for renewable energy. The idea of a dam across the estuary has been in circulation for 170 years. In its modern incarnation, the scheme would generate about 5% of the UK's electricity, supporters claim. That is equivalent to two or three nuclear power stations.

There are a variety of proposals on the table. Schemes include a 10-mile barrage between Cardiff and Weston-super-Mare. The barrage would be made from concrete casements that would be towed into the estuary and filled with sand. At high tide sluice gates would trap water. At low tide they would be opened, with the resultant surge powering turbines and providing electricity.

But environmentalists say this would damage wading bird populations. Some favour smaller projects, such as tidal lagoons. Lagoon supporters argue that unlike barrages they can generate on incoming as well as outgoing tides. And they are cheaper to build because they are situated in shallow water. But they are an unproven technology.

Gordon Brown's government seriously considered the scheme. Now it looks less likely. In 2010, then Environment Secretary Chris Huhne said there was no strategic case for the scheme. Nuclear power would be cheaper, he argued.

Cost: £15bn-£30bn

Lower Thames Crossing


The Dartford Crossing is one of the current options to cross the Thames
The Dartford bridge and tunnel are a staple of traffic news bulletins in the capital. Tailbacks are common. London is expanding east and more housing is being developed in the Thames Gateway. Unless another bridge is added soon, the congestion will bring this area east of London to a standstill, says James Hookham, managing director of the Freight Transport Association.

The government is consulting on a new bridge or tunnel over the Lower Thames. There are three locations but no guarantee that any of them will get the green light.

Two proposals suggest new bridges or tunnels be built close to the existing crossing. But, Hookham prefers the more expensive but radical option C. Traffic would cross the Thames further downstream, east of Tilbury. It would keep traffic further away from London. Motorists would cross the Thames without needing to get snarled up in Dartford, he argues. Traffic from the Channel ports would come off the M2 via a new motorway, cross the new bridge and loop north west to the M25.

The scheme could be funded partly with tolls. "We need to think big," Hookham says. "These are key routes from Dover and Folkestone to the east of London." But he wonders if the government will ever press ahead. "The last time the government did this form of consultation was for the tunnel at Stonehenge. It decided to do nothing."

Congestion at the Dartford Crossing is partly due to toll barriers
Cost: £1bn-£3bn depending on route and whether bridge or tunnel

 

[D365]

Do the OHLE masts foul the old 4-track route?
If so that would mean massive disruption to rebuild the structures further back and rewire them.

I think that was why the tracks were reduced, to make it easier to string up the overhead. I'm thinking that in the vasts fens between Huntingdon and Peterborough, the embankment/right-of-way could be widened. Something will need to be done at some point.

 

[philjo]

Do the OHLE masts foul the old 4-track route?
If so that would mean massive disruption to rebuild the structures further back and rewire them.

I believe that there is one 3 track section north of Huntingdon where the masts are standing where the 4th track used to be. So these would need moving (unless it was feasible to put the 4th track on the other side of the masts

 

[DarloRich]

As has been said before, Welwyn Tunnels (and viaduct) are not the worst capacity constraint(s) on the ECML. The long 2/3 track section from Peterborough to Huntingdon is. Then it is Welwyn North station.

Eliminating Welwyn Viaduct as a bottleneck would involving solving the station problem by reconstructing it with a pair of through lines for the fast tracks.

Or just knock it down - greater good and all that

 

[A0]

Or just knock it down - greater good and all that

40 years ago you might have got away with that - but not now.

The ECML was quite lucky in that respect in that alot of the original stations survived electrification largely unscathed.

I'm not sure there would be too many people keen on demolishing Welwyn North station to replace it with something 'modern'.

 

[D365]

I believe that there is one 3 track section north of Huntingdon where the masts are standing where the 4th track used to be. So these would need moving (unless it was feasible to put the 4th track on the other side of the masts

That is correct, should be easy enough to dig out the town-side embankment near to the Huntingdon Link Road (under construction), and build it up along St. Peters Road. Only problem is the Ermine Street iron bridge and two structures which pass overhead around Towerfields Retail Park at the north end. The first is something I have absolutely no clue about, the second is the A141. Need to study it a bit more closely!

Or just knock it down - greater good and all that

You, good sir, have some nerve

 

[HowardGWR]

40 years ago you might have got away with that - but not now.

The ECML was quite lucky in that respect in that alot of the original stations survived electrification largely unscathed.

I'm not sure there would be too many people keen on demolishing Welwyn North station to replace it with something 'modern'.

Did he mean the viaduct or the station? It seems to me you can take some of the car park at the station without demolition (using Google Earth)?

 

[DarloRich]

40 years ago you might have got away with that - but not now.

The ECML was quite lucky in that respect in that alot of the original stations survived electrification largely unscathed.

I'm not sure there would be too many people keen on demolishing Welwyn North station to replace it with something 'modern'.

no i mean just get rid of it as it is in the way. Dont rebuild it or if you do at least not where it is now.

 

[anthony263]

I wouldnt mind a tunnel from Pemrbokshire to Ireland

 

[joeykins82]

Perhaps HS3 will be a route from Crewe to Dublin?

 

[anthony263]

Perhaps HS3 will be a route from Crewe to Dublin?

Through London to Dublin trains via Holyhead & HS2. I can see the ferry operators from Holyhead as well as Ryanair crying out against a tunnel. That said the ferry companies from Dover manage with the channel tunel ok.

 

[Muzer]

Forget London to Dublin - through Paris to Dublin trains


(No, I can't see it happening either)

 

[Chris125]

The realities are that people that are currently forced of the island to be replaced with rich retirees and people with holiday homes would be able to get jobs on the mainland and that the improved transport links would foster increased economic activity on the island beyond tourism and agriculture, which alone are not the foundations on which a stable economy is built.

There will always be upsides and downsides to living on an Island, but quite simply the vast majority of Islanders, myself included, do not want a fixed link - anything which would involve more vehicles using Island roads is wholly impractical, whereas the only concept which might find wider support, a rail tunnel, would be far too expensive.

Chris

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Young people on the Island have a tough time finding jobs

So exactly like the rest of the UK then...

 

[Ironside]

Or just knock it down - greater good and all that

It's grade one listed (or at least the view is), and can't be burnt down by arsonists so short of an earthquake or terrorist incident we are stuck with it. So it's either make it double deck, build a matching one beside it or a tunnel.

It's a pretty bridge but it would be a lot more convenient to have a new four track bridge.

 

[yorksrob]

Widening the viaduct in a "sympathetic" way would be by far the easiest solution for Welwyn. Bear in mind, this has been done countless times before (think Northern section of the Somerset and Dorset joint).

 

[Muzer]

So exactly like the rest of the UK then...

Yep - speaking as a young person, if he thinks this problem is confined to the island, he really IS isolated.

 

[DarloRich]

It's grade one listed (or at least the view is), and can't be burnt down by arsonists so short of an earthquake or terrorist incident we are stuck with it. So it's either make it double deck, build a matching one beside it or a tunnel.

It's a pretty bridge but it would be a lot more convenient to have a new four track bridge.

I am not talking about the bridge. That isnt the problem. The station is.

 

[WestCountry]

I am not talking about the bridge. That isnt the problem. The station is.

But the only reason the station is a problem is because of the 2-track section caused by the bridge and tunnels, and that would still be a problem (albeit slightly less) were the station to be removed. In the long term, doing a proper job and quadding the lot is a much better solution.

 

[jopsuk]

That said the ferry companies from Dover manage with the channel tunel ok.

Hoverspeed (who were already in trouble admittedly before the tunnel opened) attempted to revive themselves with a Catamaran service. This folded. SpeedFerries didn't last long. SeaFrance collapsed.

 

[Rational Plan]

Yep - speaking as a young person, if he thinks this problem is confined to the island, he really IS isolated.

Finding full time employment on the Island has always been tough even during the recent boom. The Island always has a history of it's young leaving to find permanent work on the Mainland. But you be snide if you wish too.

 

[Muzer]

Apologies, I wasn't intending to be snide - I'm just saying that (having experience myself) it's impossible for young people to find a job *ANYWHERE* because there are so many more experienced people who have lost theirs, young people will naturally not be given a chance. Thinking this problem is confined to the island (at this moment in time at least) is not really accurate.


(Also, what recent boom?)

 

[Rational Plan]

There will always be upsides and downsides to living on an Island, but quite simply the vast majority of Islanders, myself included, do not want a fixed link - anything which would involve more vehicles using Island roads is wholly impractical, whereas the only concept which might find wider support, a rail tunnel, would be far too expensive.

Chris

A road bridge on the West side of the Island is very practical, it's as you say not politically popular on the Island, by those people who like the Island isolated. Meanwhile tourism is stunted by high ferry prices and the inconvenience in travel, as a consequence most of the seaside town centres have been declining into dereliction and slum like housing options.

A fixed link would see a big increase in visitors, which would be a good thing. Along the coast you can see the difference between those coastal towns that have become fashionable anf those that have not.

With a fixed link local companies could expand on the Island rather than come to the inevitable point when they have to move off the Island.

For people who don't need to earn money on the Island, or has well paid state job (teacher etc), it is an idyllic retreat. For everyone else it has a combination of high house prices with low wages and lots of seasonal work.

The Island will remain poor until a fixed link is built, there are over a million people on the other side of the Solent, and it might as well be 50 miles away.

 

[Bald Rick]

But the only reason the station is a problem is because of the 2-track section caused by the bridge and tunnels, and that would still be a problem (albeit slightly less) were the station to be removed. In the long term, doing a proper job and quadding the lot is a much better solution.

Being deliberately provocative, 4 tracking provides capacity that can't be used without providing (at least) additional platforms at KX, a flyover at Newark and further grade separation in the Doncaster area. You have to consider the route as a whole.

Taking the station out provides some additional capacity without having to do any of this, whilst making best use of the investment to date at Hitchin, Grantham (Allington), Finsbury Park to Ally Pally, the GN/GE and the soon to be built flyover north of Doncaster.

Anyway, assuming HS 2 happens, the pressure on capacity through Welwyn will reduce as long distance east coast services will terminate 3/4 mile west of KX.

 

[yorksrob]

Being deliberately provocative, 4 tracking provides capacity that can't be used without providing (at least) additional platforms at KX,

Will that still be the case when they're siphoning off trains to Thameslink ?

 

[Bald Rick]

Will that still be the case when they're siphoning off trains to Thameslink ?

Yep. As that capacity is mostly taken up with new services.

 

[yorksrob]

Yep. As that capacity is mostly taken up with new services.

Ah cheers.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Meanwhile tourism is stunted by high ferry prices and the inconvenience in travel

Sounds like some form of government intervention perhaps in the way of subsidy would be ideal, to bring down ferry prices for both tourists and island residents. A shame such thinking is not politically en-vogue.

But the only reason the station is a problem is because of the 2-track section caused by the bridge and tunnels, and that would still be a problem (albeit slightly less) were the station to be removed. In the long term, doing a proper job and quadding the lot is a much better solution.

At previous times when Welwyn quadrupling has been investigated have there been various options of how to do it/how much to do etc.?

I'm not familiar with the geography of the area but I imagine as it's a reasonably lengthy stretch there would be a number of options with varying degrees of benefit/cost/disruption/environmental impact and such.

Am I right in thinking that both the Digswell viaduct and Welwyn North station are listed structures?