BBC Article "Britain's hidden transport crisis."

[Dai Corner]

The idea people are unaware this is a national problem is untrue.

Look at any of the major operators and they are quick to blame the national bus driver shortage, it's their stock answer.

There is, of course, no shortage, this is just an excuse to avoid admitting how poor they are at running their business.

I live in a fairly ordinary estate, every day we have kids who want to get about or have to go to school, people with no access to a car, disabled, people going for a drink, workers going into town (common here for car owners to travel into the city by public transport, parking prohibitively expensive), people who care about the environment,heavens to Betsy even the odd enthusiast.

Out of maybe 50 people in my immediate locale I can only think of 2 or 3 that never use the buses. For many of those who do, they are vulnerable. Not sure how people imagine bus use is out here in the wilds of Tyne and Wear, it's not like London but we still use them. Or we would if they ran.

I live in a fairly ordinary estate too. Out of the 50 nearest neighbours I can't think of any who ever use the buses except for me and a couple of students who use them to get to college. I don't make the operators any money as I have a concessionary pass and the students probably don't either as they have some sort of discount scheme.

 

[Titfield]

So the Traffic Commissioners find that some journeys are not covered by a bus company. They will interview the company who will show them their staff numbers, sickness numbers etc and show they don't have the resources to run the services in the timetable. So then what? All operators are the same. Taking the route off one operator who can't cover it to another who can't cover it will achieve what exactly?

Potentially loss of licence (revocation), loss of repute (which would lead to loss of licence), loss of repute of the Transport Manager, curtailment of the licence. Not being able to employ sufficient drivers is no excuse for failing the travelling public. The TCs have to get tough because accepting the "its not out fault guv" rationale could lead to maintenance standards falling to the point that public safety could be jeopardised.

 

[DunsBus]

I live in a fairly ordinary estate too. Out of the 50 nearest neighbours I can't think of any who ever use the buses except for me and a couple of students who use them to get to college. I don't make the operators any money as I have a concessionary pass and the students probably don't either as they have some sort of discount scheme.

The national bus driver shortage certainly seems to be West Coast Motors' stock answer whenever the poor level of bus provision in the Borders is pointed out to them.

 

[markymark2000]

The problem over the past few years is that the number of DVSA staff carrying out checks whether they are a TE (Traffic Examiner) or VE (Vehicle Examiner) or BM (Bus Monitor punctuality and reliability) has declined very considerably thus the number of reports being sent to the TC for further action ie Public Inquiry has also reduced. Some of the staff issues are due to budget cuts, some due to recruitment difficulties.

The reality is that if passengers or other interested parties are aware of poor punctuality, reliability, poor maintenance standards they need to report this to both the OTC and DVSA and hope that if sufficient others do likewise it will be escalated for investigation.

I've reported stuff to the Office of the Traffic Commissioner before and they couldn't care less because it was Arriva and Warringtons Own Buses. Big operator pals. I included evidence of the delays but nothing happened. It included Warringtons Own Buses running unofficial duplicate buses which left the bus station as soon as they saw their competitor reversing off stand and they would run the unofficial duplicate all day to try and sweep up passengers. Warrington would block the bus stand at the terminus too to try and avoid passengers from getting on the competitors service. What got done? Absolute sod all. Too busy sat with in the office with a cup of tea and their feet up. IF it was the other way around and it was the smaller competitor who did these things, the TC would have sprung into action immediately but there is a huge bias with the traffic commissioners. It's only taken up if the TC has to do something because it would reflect badly on them to do nothing. Generally though, they do nothing as they are too friendly with big firms. They focus on smaller firms as they are easier targets with less legal backgrounds to fight.

As for bus monitor people, the easy way to do that is get a database of local people who are willing to work and then if intelligence comes in about shoddy services, they get more local people to do the work at any time. Rather than only enforcing 9-5 Mon-Fri and having to pay out for overpaid civil servants and any associated expenses. Pay normal Joe up the road to do it cheaper at any time of day or night. Then you only pay these people when they work and they only work in their area when there is intelligence to act upon.

If they OTC wasn't so spineless, it'd make plenty of money back on fines but sadly it doesn't do fines; it does slaps on the wrist and in which case, the whole system is a waste of time. You may as well let people run what they want, when they want with any vehicle type, in any condition that they want.

So the Traffic Commissioners find that some journeys are not covered by a bus company. They will interview the company who will show them their staff numbers, sickness numbers etc and show they don't have the resources to run the services in the timetable. So then what? All operators are the same. Taking the route off one operator who can't cover it to another who can't cover it will achieve what exactly?

That's no excuse. Traffic Commissioner guidance states that services must be 95% reliably else you risk sanctions. IF you can't fulfil the timetable, the service should be reduced to a level so that you can staff the full service.

Do you advertise a bus half hourly with 40% of services not running or do you advertise an hourly service but all trips run. I know what I and almost all of the public would prefer and that's the issue. Stagecoach especially but also a number of other firms are saying buses run more often and then they can't fulfil the timetable.

There is, of course, no shortage, this is just an excuse to avoid admitting how poor they are at running their business.

I think there certainly is a shortage of drivers but I will 100% agree that it links in to how poor the companies are at running their businesses. The best employers have a lot of drivers available, those with worse management and conditions are now struggling the worst.

Potentially loss of licence (revocation), loss of repute (which would lead to loss of licence), loss of repute of the Transport Manager, curtailment of the licence. Not being able to employ sufficient drivers is no excuse for failing the travelling public. The TCs have to get tough because accepting the "its not out fault guv" rationale could lead to maintenance standards falling to the point that public safety could be jeopardised.

100% agree

 

[Jordan Adam]

You have to wonder why more drivers seem to have left the Arbroath depot? Is it because before covid the Nno73 had conductors so the drivers had an easy life. Now the conductors are gone and well, the same drivers have to do a lot more work and most I bet felt.. nah I'm off.

I think regional factors are at play too, Xplore Dundee are even worse when it comes to running reduced timetables and not being able to cover them.

In contrast First Aberdeen and Stagecoach Bluebird are essentially at pre-covid levels in terms of resources and are generally managing fine, in fact of late with First many cancellations have been due to a lack of bus rather than driver!

 

[PaulMc7]

From what I've experienced, it's definitely very different depending on each depot.

With First in the Greater Glasgow operating area, Overtown and Dumbarton barely seem affected whereas Caledonia, Scotstoun and Blantyre are far more affected although Blantyre seems a bit better than it was a while back.

With Mcgills, Greenock seems fine from what I've seen whereas Johnstone and Inchinnan are a bit short and now posting cancellations on their website for each day.

With Stagecoach in Fife, I don't know too much but from who I've spoken to, Aberhill seems fine whereas other depots are awful for cancellations. I imagine school services needing to be covered is also a huge factor in this as Stagecoach have an awful lot of school services.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I've reported stuff to the Office of the Traffic Commissioner before and they couldn't care less because it was Arriva and Warringtons Own Buses. Big operator pals.

The North West TC for many years was Beverley Bell. One thing you could never say about her is that she didn't care.

 

[Titfield]

If they OTC wasn't so spineless, it'd make plenty of money back on fines but sadly it doesn't do fines; it does slaps on the wrist and in which case, the whole system is a waste of time. You may as well let people run what they want, when they want with any vehicle type, in any condition that they want.

The legislation does not allow for the fining of Operators which imho is a major failing of the legislation because there are circumstances where a fine would be far more appropriate than the range of sanctions currently available.

Apart from the slap on the wrist (a verbal warning or stating that repute is tarnished not lost) the only sanctions open to the TC are revocation, curtailment or suspension.

These sanctions are severe and present the TC with a lack of a suitable option for regulatory action in less serious cases.

The DVSA who can issued Graduated Fixed Penalties (for certain offences) and report for prosecution for other offences should grasp the mettle.

 

[Ken H]

The legislation does not allow for the fining of Operators which imho is a major failing of the legislation because there are circumstances where a fine would be far more appropriate than the range of sanctions currently available.

Apart from the slap on the wrist (a verbal warning or stating that repute is tarnished not lost) the only sanctions open to the TC are revocation, curtailment or suspension.

These sanctions are severe and present the TC with a lack of a suitable option for regulatory action in less serious cases.

The DVSA who can issued Graduated Fixed Penalties (for certain offences) and report for prosecution for other offences should grasp the mettle.

I assume the operator can appeal, and if necessary, challenge a ruling in court. Maybe the TC are afriad of having costs awarded against them. Similar to a local authority refusing planning permission.

 

[Titfield]

I assume the operator can appeal, and if necessary, challenge a ruling in court. Maybe the TC are afriad of having costs awarded against them. Similar to a local authority refusing planning permission.

The Operator can appeal to the Upper Tribunal (Administrative Appeals Chamber). It is a Tribunal and not a Court. The Operator can also apply to the TC for a stay - to halt the TC decision whilst an appeal is submitted and heard - or if the TC refuses a stay apply to the Upper Tribunal for a stay whilst the appeal is submitted and heard. There are legal reasons and precedent decisions as to why these courses of action are permitted. If the Operator is aggrieved with the decision of the UT then they can escalate it higher to the Court of Appeal but that would be most unusual.

I dont think are any circumstances where an Operator can apply for costs.

Failing to run cases are quite unusual. The usual fodder of inquiries held by the TCs are repute, maintenance issues, drivers hours issues, having an engaged / active Transport Manager and for new operator licence applicants, meeting financial standing.

 

[markymark2000]

The North West TC for many years was Beverley Bell. One thing you could never say about her is that she didn't care.

But also targeted and made life hellish for a Blackpool based operator.

The legislation does not allow for the fining of Operators which imho is a major failing of the legislation because there are circumstances where a fine would be far more appropriate than the range of sanctions currently available.

Operators can be fined for not providing the registered service.

Senior Traffic Commissioners Statutory Document No.14

Statutory Document No. 14: local bus services in England (outside London) and Wales

www.gov.uk

Sanctions​

• Traffic commissioners have powers to take regulatory action against operators who do not operate services in accordance with the registered particulars. Section 26 of the TA 1985 enables the traffic commissioner to attach conditions prohibiting the operator from running certain local services or local services of any description.
• Section 155 of the TA 2000 (as amended by section 64 of the Local Transport Act 2008) provides that the traffic commissioner can impose a penalty on the operator where it has failed (without reasonable excuse) to operate a local service under section 6 of the TA 1985, or has operated a local service in contravention of that section. It also provides that traffic commissioners can order:
• that the operator expends a sum of money, limited to the provision or improvement of local services or facilities;
• that the operator provides compensation to passengers; or
• an order of such other description as the Secretary of State (as respects England) or the Welsh Ministers (as respects Wales) may by order prescribe.

The amount of the penalty is up to £550 multiplied by the total number of vehicles which the operator is licensed to use under all the PSV operator licences held by them.

An order for compensation may take the form of payments of money, or other form (including the provision of free travel or travel at a reduced price) and must also not exceed the equivalent of £550 per authorised vehicle.

In section 2.8

The application of a penalty (financial or otherwise) is likely to be most appropriate where an operator makes little or no effort to run reliable and punctual services, or shows a flagrant disregard for compliance or fair competition.

In the interests of consistency, the Senior Traffic Commissioner directs that the following starting points are used when using powers to impose a penalty (financial or otherwise) under section 155 of the TA 2000:

• under 95% compliance – up to £100 per authorised vehicle;
• under 90% compliance – £100 - £250 per authorised vehicle;
• under 85% compliance – £250 - £400 per authorised vehicle;
• under 80% compliance – £400 - £550 per authorised vehicle.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But also targeted and made life hellish for a Blackpool based operator.

IIRC the said Blackpool-based operator instructed private investigators to harass Mrs Bell by scouring theough her private life. Before posting misleading videos on YouTube in an effort to bully and intimidate a public official doing her job.

That's why the Blackpool operator lost their licence. IMO they were lucky not to face criminal charges for their behaviour.

 

[markymark2000]

IIRC the said Blackpool-based operator instructed private investigators to harass Mrs Bell by scouring theough her private life. Before posting misleading videos on YouTube in an effort to bully and intimidate a public official doing her job.

That's why the Blackpool operator lost their licence. IMO they were lucky not to face criminal charges for their behaviour.

The pair were as bad as eachother in my opinion. It can't be that bad as the operator is still trading now and expanding into other areas.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It can't be that bad as the operator is still trading now and expanding into other areas.

He was disqualified for a year, he did his year (after losing several court cases), and now he's back.

IMO that says more about how weak the regulatory system is rather than anything about the individual.

The pair were as bad as eachother in my opinion.

No, she was a public official doing her job and he disagreed with her decision. Maybe she was harsh- First Manchester certainly thought so in a similar case- but that's not the point.

Rather than use the legal processes, he mouthed off about irrelevant stuff on YouTube.

You seem to be simulateously criticising the TC for not taking enforcement action whilst criticising the TC for taking enforcement action.

 

[markymark2000]

He was disqualified for a year, he did his year (after losing several court cases), and now he's back.

IMO that says more about how weak the regulatory system is rather than anything about the individual.



No, she was a public official doing her job and he disagreed with her decision. Maybe she was harsh- First Manchester certainly thought so in a similar case- but that's not the point.

Rather than use the legal processes, he mouthed off about irrelevant stuff on YouTube.

You seem to be simulateously criticising the TC for not taking enforcement action whilst criticising the TC for taking enforcement action.

I think in many instances more enforcement should be taken yes. I am not saying enforcement wasn't needed in that instance just saying that as a person, she disliked certain firms and focussed on that and I know other people have the same opinion.

Enforcement should be there but also fair. IT shouldn't matter if you're an indy with 3 buses or NatEx West Mids with thousands of discs on a single licence. Everyone should be treated the same for enforcement purposes.

 

[Titfield]

But also targeted and made life hellish for a Blackpool based operator.


Operators can be fined for not providing the registered service.

Senior Traffic Commissioners Statutory Document No.14

Statutory Document No. 14: local bus services in England (outside London) and Wales

www.gov.uk

In section 2.8

Thank you. My apologies for not remembering this very specific piece of legislation.

However financial penalties can only be imposed for this failing and not iirc for any other failing which I still contend is an issue with the legislation as it restricts the actions an operator can take,

 

[markymark2000]

However financial penalties can only be imposed for this failing and not iirc for any other failing which I still contend is an issue with the legislation as it restricts the actions an operator can take,

Fines are for failing to operate the service in line with the registration. What other issues are you thinking?

 

[Titfield]

Fines are for failing to operate the service in line with the registration. What other issues are you thinking?

I Reread my post and realised I meant "restricts the actions a TC could take".

I am just considering those issues related to the granting and holding of an operators licence.

Some roadworthiness and maintenance issues can result in fines (or Graduated Fixed Penalties) but these are not imposed by the TC.

 

[Geordie driver]

I think there certainly is a shortage of drivers

My take on it is there is a shortage of decent employers, I know loads of drivers who would love to go back, but not with the way they run their business.

Including me.

 

[317 forever]

It is interesting that the article fails to mention the fact that Stagecoach publish cancellations on their Twitter page daily. Not the most passenger friendly, I agree, but it's not as if they're leaving customers completely "in the dark" - no pun intended.

Even publishing their cancellations on Twitter is only a halfway house as regards letting passengers know the journeys have been cancelled.

They do not always let the programmers of displays at bus stations know. This means that some passengers will only find out the hard way that the bus was being cancelled.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2022 ==

Can't say I'm surprised, the X7 and services run by Arbroath more generally have truly been a farce of late.

I attempted to get the 7:15 X7 from Aberdeen to Dundee a few weeks back, upon boarding I was informed that the bus was only going to Arbroath and I'd need to swap on to a 39 or 73 as there was no driver to take over. I wasn't too bothered by it at that point as I knew there was a 39 from Arbroath to Dundee only 10 minutes or so after the X7.

Upon arriving in to Arbroath at least 30 passengers got off the X7 and joined the already long queue for the 39 to Dundee which turned out to be E200MMC 26113, by the time it had loaded us all on it was 20 minutes late, bus full and had to leave a few people behind, meanwhile the 39 in the other direction and a 27 were also at the bus station, double deckers and left with less than 5 passengers.

On route to Dundee 26113 left behind at least 20 people at various stops - not good on a route with an hourly service! Given the driver of the X7 and therefor control/management knew at least two hours ahead of time that the X7 wouldn't continue past Arbroath I really don't understand why they had 26113 on that 39 when it easily could've been swapped at the bus station with the decker on the other 39. It just shows a serious lack of former planning/leadership and made a bad situation even worse.

I honestly feel sorry for anyone who relies on the EScot X7, each day there's masses of cancellations and on at least one occasion there's been a gap in service of over four hours.

Oh yes, there is this random choice of when to put a single decker or a double decker on the route. In September a journey on Arriva 425/27 Wakefield - Morley - Bradford was cancelled. It is usually double-deck with an occasional Pulsar. However, the bus after the cancelled one was a 9.3 metre Enviro 200!

 

[WAB]

Even publishing their cancellations on Twitter is only a halfway house as regards letting passengers know the journeys have been cancelled.

They do not always let the programmers of displays at bus stations know. This means that some passengers will only find out the hard way that the bus was being cancelled.

And this is one of the reasons why I suspect that buses are seen as inferior to trains. Train cancellation information is clear and available audio-visually at all stops, online via 3rd-party apps, and via personalised alerts. With buses, it's a case of hope it turns up, maybe an obscure Twitter account with long lists of difficult to decipher cancellations which were planned a while in advance, maybe some showing as cancelled on certain information screens at major stops.

 

[overthewater]

Could the recession which many in the media are reporting might finally resolve the bus driver shortages?

 

[Vespa]

I remember at one time Liverpool ran night buses from 23:00 through to 05:00 going to Wirral, Croxteth, Prescot and Speke, it was great, the bus was rammed and it's cheaper than a taxi, concession passes are not valid on them however, I would have thought the bus company would made a mint on these services, they stopped it and they haven't resumed for many years, it was greatly missed especially with the late hours pubs open to.

 

[PG]

Could the recession which many in the media are reporting might finally resolve the bus driver shortages?

As in running fewer buses requires fewer drivers? In that case yes I guess. Downside is wider headways and some routes withdrawn.

 

[johncrossley]

As in running fewer buses requires fewer drivers? In that case yes I guess. Downside is wider headways and some routes withdrawn.

There might also be fewer alternative jobs available, so even if routes don't get cut it might be easier to fill vacancies.

 

[lachlan]

I remember at one time Liverpool ran night buses from 23:00 through to 05:00 going to Wirral, Croxteth, Prescot and Speke, it was great, the bus was rammed and it's cheaper than a taxi, concession passes are not valid on them however, I would have thought the bus company would made a mint on these services, they stopped it and they haven't resumed for many years, it was greatly missed especially with the late hours pubs open to.

Aberdeen also has had all it’s night buses withdrawn during the pandemic

 

[route101]

Could the recession which many in the media are reporting might finally resolve the bus driver shortages?

I had a leaflet from First through the door advertising for drivers, thats a first.

 

[PaulMc7]

I had a leaflet from First through the door advertising for drivers, thats a first.

I've had one of them too a while back. At least they're trying I guess although I do wonder if it got anyone to apply.

 

[Geordie driver]

There might also be fewer alternative jobs available, so even if routes don't get cut it might be easier to fill vacancies.

This, combined with appeals to the government to permit people from abroad to come in as a "skills shortage".

They are desperate for poor people to exploit.

There is no shortage of people with PCV licences.

You want them? Make it a good job.

Poor employers will blame anything but their own behaviour for their failings.

 

[Vespa]

This, combined with appeals to the government to permit people from abroad to come in as a "skills shortage".

They are desperate for poor people to exploit.

There is no shortage of people with PCV licences.

You want them? Make it a good job.

Poor employers will blame anything but their own behaviour for their failings.

Indeed, I've always said people don't leave jobs, they leave bad bosses.