BBC 31/1/12: Man killed at Barlaston level crossing

[GB]

On the contrary, I suspect most fatalities are accidental, ie not done on purpose.

There seems to be more suicides (ie intentional) than accidental.

When driving on the road, I am sure we have all had small lapses that could have been fatal if we hadn't caught on in time.

Maybe, but the blame will always be placed where the blame is due. Unlike the railways where it is always the big bad corporations that are apparently at fault :roll:

We are, after all, all human. A momentary assumption that the line is clear on a foot crossing is all it needs for a serious accident. Another human trait, I'm afraid.

What ever happened to "STOP, LOOK, LISTEN"? If people were not in such a hurry and took a bit more notice of their surroundings many of these accidents won't have happened.

No, even those who deliberately cross against lights are still victims, and are potentially valuable lives that have been snuffed out.

Victims of their own demise no doubt.

Saying, in effect, they deserved what they got is just plain wrong.

I dont think anyone has suggested they deserve it but merely pointing out the fact if you play with fire expect to get burnt.

I agree with MK Tom that the aim should eventually be to eliminate level crossings. But, as the majority of incidents are caused by road and path users, the funding should come from the road and path funding agencies

Millions of people a year traverse level crossings without incident against a tiny number that chance it (for what ever reason) and pay the ultimate price so I don't see the problem.

Given some of the responses on hear I don't know how most of us manage to survive in the big bad world:roll:

 

[TDK]

Not on the railway. The large majority of fatalities are declared non-suspicious (suicides).

Non suspicious does not necessarily nean suicide
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Speed would be more important factor for sighting than damage potential especially due to the optical effect of looming. Some people will defeat any system you put in place if they are determined enough like the idiot I saw nearly creamed at brimsdown, there is a subway right there! But we should make it less possible. I worked at a location where I was searched everyday I left work not because they thought we would steal but it keeps honest people honest. Making safer crossing will keep safe people from making poor choices, there is no way of preventing certain people behaving the way they do.

The BBC quote British Transport Police said the unidentified man was hit 500 yds (457.2m) from the crossing at Wedgwood railway station, near Barlaston. does this mean the man was on the tracks 500 yards from the crossing? Was this actually a crossing incident?

 

[40fan]

The incident was at Wedgwood.

http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk/Man-killed-struck-train/story-15098084-detail/story.html

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

I've noticed from tweets from train companies that there seems to be 3 passengers killed a day, so about 1 a day on crossings? Hmm...
Sincere thoughts to the family, but people really need to cross safely. It's not our fault they're getting killed, although I also believe we need safer crossings and more bridges.

 

[Harlesden]

The incident was at Wedgwood.

http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk/Man-killed-struck-train/story-15098084-detail/story.html

I'm a little puzzled by this sentence
QUOTE A funeral team from Network Rail removed the body UNQUOTE

 

[the sniper]

I've driven trains for 23 years and had one fatality. The ONLY victims are the driver who has to witness this stupidity and the passengers who's day is inconvenienced by the inevitable delay.

Certainly not the only victims. At least there's the family of the deceased and witnesses on the platforms who often have a clearer view than the driver.

On the contrary, I suspect most fatalities are accidental, ie not done on purpose.

You're wrong.

The incident was at Wedgwood.

http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk/Man-killed-struck-train/story-15098084-detail/story.html

I'm a little puzzled by this sentence
QUOTE A funeral team from Network Rail removed the body UNQUOTE

Same thing I was going to post. Typical media though, make up what you don't know. Unless NR are now official calling BTP Officers, their NR MOMs and Private Ambulance crews their 'funeral team'?! :roll:

 

[Bald Rick]

Not on the railway. The large majority of fatalities are declared non-suspicious (suicides).

Fatalities are declared non-suspicious by the BTP only when they have sufficient evidence, usually from an eyewitness (more often than not the train driver), that the individual(s) concerned were in the path of the train of their own free will. This includes suicides, but also trespassers and those who have misused a level crossing (knowingly or not).

Fatalities declared unexplained are those where the BTP can not quickly get such evidence, and then scenes of crime officers are called to recover evidence - this clearly takes time and train services are usually suspended for the duration.

 

[BestWestern]

Real example - Districty Council serves NR with noise abatement order for whistling at a rural crossing that happens to be near one house (the complainant). NR thus applies to County Council for order to close said crossing (very lightly used). County Council says no!

And it's at this point that NR need to stop being so damned compliant and put the high-handed Council pen pushers firmly in their place - "Dear Mr Council man, you may be interested to know that actually WE run the railway, not you, and WE have a set of rules which apply, which WE shall set as necessary, thank you very much indeed"...

A threat to suspend the service due to the council putting the line in breach of the Rulebook requirements, and make the reasons very clear to the media, should hep bring about a swift resolution :roll:

 

[IanXC]

I've noticed from tweets from train companies that there seems to be 3 passengers killed a day, so about 1 a day on crossings? Hmm...

Where do you get 3 a day from? 33 seems to be the total for January, and none of those were passengers.

 

[Oswyntail]

...
You're wrong.
...

Yes, thanks, I get the message What I meant (and expressed extremely badly) was that, of non-suicide fatalities, most will be truly accidental, caused by that one moment lapse of concentration, rather than by an arrogant "I know what I'm doing and can't be harmed" attitude, such as seen by drivers weaving round barriers.

 

[the sniper]

Yes, thanks, I get the message What I meant (and expressed extremely badly) was that, of non-suicide fatalities, most will be truly accidental, caused by that one moment lapse of concentration, rather than by an arrogant "I know what I'm doing and can't be harmed" attitude, such as seen by drivers weaving round barriers.

You're right, probably.

Though in many cases I wouldn't say it's one moments lapse of concentration, but at least one bad decision and a misjudgement. For example, the person who drops their phone on the tracks, they make the decision to retrieve it and misjudge the danger they're in from arriving trains.

Same theory for some user worked crossing crashes in the country side. They don't bother using phone to the signaller as they honestly believe no train will be coming. They pull out onto the crossing to open the other gate and get hit. Misjudgement and a bad decision.

 

[Bald Rick]

And it's at this point that NR need to stop being so damned compliant and put the high-handed Council pen pushers firmly in their place - "Dear Mr Council man, you may be interested to know that actually WE run the railway, not you, and WE have a set of rules which apply, which WE shall set as necessary, thank you very much indeed"...

A threat to suspend the service due to the council putting the line in breach of the Rulebook requirements, and make the reasons very clear to the media, should hep bring about a swift resolution :roll:

Well that's sort of what happened. Although the council did point out that they had one thing on their side - the law. (Hence the need for the law to change!)

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Where do you get 3 a day from? 33 seems to be the total for January, and none of those were passengers.

Not passengers, more like victims. (I expected you knew what I meant but I guess not...)

 

[First class]

I'm a little puzzled by this sentence
QUOTE A funeral team from Network Rail removed the body UNQUOTE

There is a contractor called Autocleanz that deals with the actual collecting of body parts from the railway tracks in the Midlands. The Reaper's ambulance just turns up and takes the remains away. Most of the time I doubt anyone is even asked to identify them, many incidents inflict damage you wouldn't think possible.

One driver I know used to work further up North and mowed down a young chap on an open crossing. A 75mph EMU completely wiped him out, however when BTP and the rest arrived on site, his head was missing despite a huge search. The fitters checked the train (in the dark) and couldn't find it. After a couple of hours the train was moved to the depot and put over a pit to be hosed down, (head still missing). Tech Grade 1 went into the pit with hose and began rinsing the unit. He looked up and found a very damaged head wedged underneath, but with eyes open looking at him. The Technician ended up leaving after all sorts of counselling.

My point is, that warning signs aren't working at crossings, similar to the "smoking kills" warnings you used to see on Cigarette packets. Putting some graphic (reconstructed) pictures at these crossings/ad campaigns etc (like what replaced the ciggy text warnings) may be a good idea. Will certainly draw attention to the consequences of taking the risk.

 

[michael769]

There is a contractor called Autocleanz that deals with the actual collecting of body parts from the railway tracks in the Midlands.

Urgh! That must be a grim job.....

 

[carriageline]

Exactly what I was going to say! (regarding the graphic pictures etc)

Put a picture of a smashed up car, with some blood for good measure and a train, with some hard cold facts, that could make people think twice. At user worked ones (pedestrians) could they go so far as putting picture of a train driving into a dummy? With a "blood explosion"? Shock tactics work, I know people who stopped smoking simply cos they couldn't deal with the pictures on the boxes, if people stopped using the crossings becos of graphic images then even better. Stick the picture on the gate so they definitely see it, make it big and graphic, so they look at it, and most importantly acknowledge it. I think the biggest problem is people just going into autopilot, and crossing without thinking, so a picture (everyone looks at pictures, lets face it) with a caption will definitely get attention.

Another thing, why can't the local police, or even network rail, set up cameras similar to traffic light cameras. Not sure how the situation would work, soon as the red lights come on snap anyone that jumps them? Or a few seconds after the amber comes on? If cameras are a problem, then ANPR (automatic number plate recognition) video cameras could be used, and issue a hefty fine, either NR them selves, or council/police, lets face it it's a bit more serious than jumping a red light. The police around my way have a specially adapted van for use at level crossings and catching people, issuing fines

Side note:
Sorry to everyone on here that has been involved in these incidents, cos it seems harsh me saying that, and I nearly didn't post it cos I can only guess how tragic and tormenting it is, best wishes to you all.

 

[GB]

Some crossings are already fitted with red light cameras and there are a couple of ANPR style vans Network Rail use in conjunction with the BTP. However with the sheer number of level crossings (and that does not include user worked crossings, occupation crossings or foot crossings) policing them all would be prohibitively expensive and a near impossibility.

 

[Bald Rick]

Some crossings are already fitted with red light cameras and there are a couple of ANPR style vans Network Rail use in conjunction with the BTP. However with the sheer number of level crossings (and that does not include user worked crossings, occupation crossings or foot crossings) policing them all would be prohibitively expensive and a near impossibility.

Permanent fixed ANPR cameras are coming to a highway LX near you very soon ....

 

[IanXC]

Permanent fixed ANPR cameras are coming to a highway LX near you very soon ....

I understand the delay compared with local forces was to do with BTP not having the correct legal powers.

 

[Bald Rick]

I understand the delay compared with local forces was to do with BTP not having the correct legal powers.

Partly that, partly them not having the resources to issue and process a couple of thousand fixed penalties a day, and partly because the cameras themselves (and their interface to the LX flashing lights) have yet to receive Home Office approval.