Bay Platforms at York

[Aictos]

Came across this photo and not being a regular traveller though York, can anyone tell me what platforms they used to be and what the still in use platform is numbered please?

Also, why did the track got lifted from the platform nearest the camera and lastly could it be reinstated?

If it did get reinstated, would it improve the capacity of terminating services, have no idea on the length of the platform,

Thanks to Railway Herald for hosting said pictures.

 

[philjo]

It is the northbound bay platform used for Harrogate trains.
I think the one in use is now Platform 8.
It is generally only 1 train per hour from Harrogate to York on the current timetable, so presumably there wasn't much need to use the other platform as not much else terminates from the north (the Scarborough line cannot be accessed from these platforms)


I did read somewhere that its reinstatement might be a possibility if the Wensleydale Railway was ever wanting to run through services beyond Northallerton to York.

 

[Aictos]

Could the Harrogate to York service be extended to half hourly or is the demand not there?

 

[brompton rail]

The demand is probably there, though the required trains are not!

 

[Capybara]

I'm going from memory here, right back into the 70s, but I believe that these were platforms 12 and 13. The main up platform was platform 8 (N & S) and the main down platform was 9. The next through platform was 14 (currently 9) while the two on the outside were 15 and 16 (now 10 & 11). As I recall, the platform you are referring to was used for the DMU stopping service to Darlington and Newcastle which used to run in those days but also, occasionally, for Harrogate trains.

The main problem with a half-hourly timetable would be that there are two significant stretches of single track on the line between Knaresborough and Poppleton with the double track between Cattal and Hammerton serving as the passing point. They do run more than one train per hour for periods in the morning and evening peak however.

 

[Muttley]

The biggest capacity problem is York to Skelton Jn, not platform spaces.

 

[Aictos]

The biggest capacity problem is York to Skelton Jn, not platform spaces.

Which is why I'm asking, I'm not familiar with the layout.

Thanks for the replies anyway so far guys,

 

[dk1]

There was a grand plan for York announced a couple of years ago that planned for Harrogate trains to leave from the South end & veer right via the avoiding lines at York North yard. This would avoid any confliction with the East Coast main line at & from Skelton Junc.

 

[FLHH East Anglia]

There was a grand plan for York announced a couple of years ago that planned for Harrogate trains to leave from the South end & veer right via the avoiding lines at York North yard. This would avoid any confliction with the East Coast main line at & from Skelton Junc.

Now that would make sense!!:roll:

 

[4SRKT]

I'm going from memory here, right back into the 70s, but I believe that these were platforms 12 and 13. The main up platform was platform 8 (N & S) and the main down platform was 9. The next through platform was 14 (currently 9) while the two on the outside were 15 and 16 (now 10 & 11). As I recall, the platform you are referring to was used for the DMU stopping service to Darlington and Newcastle which used to run in those days but also, occasionally, for Harrogate trains.

Pretty much spot on. I'm a York man myself and up until the remodelling in about 1987(?), the layout was:

Platforms 1-3. South facing bays on up side of main trainshed. The current platform 1 is all that remains here (was previously 3), although the original platform 1 had been lifted many years before I became interested in the railway.

Platforms 4-7. Bays facing the Scarborough line. So many platforms because Hull services used to terminate in them as well in steam days. By the 1980s, only 6 and 7 were in any regular use, with 4 and 5 used to stable stock. Platform 7 survives as the current platform 2, the rest now a car park.

Platform 8. Very long platform encompassing what is now 3 and 4. Roughly speaking the current 3 was 8A and 4 was 8B (northbound facing the Scarborough line only). Because of the centre roads, a southbound train could depart from 8B while another train was sitting in 8A.

Platform 9 was the current platform 5. Was originally longer and, like platform 8 was subdivided into 9A and 9B, which could also be separately accessed from the centre roads. When the station was remodelled, it was truncated at the north end to reduce the severity of the curve on the ECML.

Platforms 10 and 11 were south facing bays on the down side of the main trainshed. Now platforms 6 and 7.

Platforms 12 and 13 were north facing bays on the down side. Platform 13 survives as platform 8, still performing its main function as the Harrogate bay. The now trackless and truncated (other face of the former platform 9B) platform 12 was occassionally used by Harrogate trains, and by the handful of local York-Darlington DMUs that ran then.

The remainder is simple: the current platforms 9-11 were 14-16, although there was a centre road between 14 and 15 then.

 

[theblackwatch]

Spot on there 4SRKT saved me typing it all out. The platforms were renumbered in 1989, I got some pictures of the old signs the day before the platforms were all renumbered. Quite a few of us still refer to the platforms by their old numbers...

Spent a fair bit of my early years there myself, on a Deltic tour a year or two back, someone commented that I used to be there more often that the station porters!

 

[4SRKT]

Those were the days. Spent a lot of my spare time down at the old cattle docks by Holgate Junction. There were 4 roads coming round from York Yard North, and at least 6 coming out of the station. Look at it now!

 

[142094]

Platform 8 has also been used for north bound TPEs orginating at York, as it is easy to store them there when they come out of the Siemens depot early in the morning.

 

[D6975]

I caught a Newcastle stopper from that platform back in the late 80s, just before the ECML electrification was extended. It was a class 110 and the driver left the blinds up on the secondman's side, so I had an excellent view. The service was very early in the morning 05.XX IIRC. I'd just got off 1S19, the Bristol-Glasgow/Edinburgh sleeper which was taking an unplanned scenic route!
I had been planning to do Motherwell and Eastfield that day, but ended up doing Thornaby and Frodingham instead.

 

[4SRKT]

I caught a Newcastle stopper from that platform back in the late 80s, just before the ECML electrification was extended. It was a class 110 and the driver left the blinds up on the secondman's side, so I had an excellent view. The service was very early in the morning 05.XX IIRC. I'd just got off 1S19, the Bristol-Glasgow/Edinburgh sleeper which was taking an unplanned scenic route!
I had been planning to do Motherwell and Eastfield that day, but ended up doing Thornaby and Frodingham instead.

I remember that train! I also remember being in Newcastle early one morning trying to get to York, and the tram had failed. The 3-car 110 off this working was what they provided as a replacement to York, where someone had arranged another tram to take it from there! I decided not to get this, but wait for the Liverpool train instead!

 

[Spartacus]

Even if you managed to find the stock and track capacity at the York end you'd fall down with the lack of track and platform capacity at Leeds. I don't know how much call there would be for a regular York - Harrogate service using platform 2 at Harrogate but realistically that's all there's room for.

Can imagine the squeal from the 14xs going round the triangle curve at Holgate to reach the station from that end, I'd hate to live nearby!

 

[philjo]

There is already a half-hourly service between Leeds-Harrogate-Knaresborough (with one per hour continuing to York), so extending the existing Leeds-Knaresborough service to York would not have any effect on Leeds.
I think that a couple of additional trains run to York in the peak making it half-hourly, but not sure if this is in both directions. (i.e. is it one or 2 extra services using the single-track section during that hour?)

 

[4SRKT]

Even if you managed to find the stock and track capacity at the York end you'd fall down with the lack of track and platform capacity at Leeds. I don't know how much call there would be for a regular York - Harrogate service using platform 2 at Harrogate but realistically that's all there's room for.

You could just make the Knaresborough short workings go through to York every time, then there'd be no extra trains in or out of Leeds.

This really wouldn't be a problem. The current hourly service crosses between Cattal and Hammerton. Tack fifteen minutes on to this back towards York and you're crossing between Poppleton and York. Platform 13 (sorry, 8) would just end up being very intensively used, with a train departing every half hour, and another one arriving 4-5 minutes after the previous departure. Of course this is a very long layover (same as now in fact, but twice an hour instead of once is even more wasteful). You could rejig the timetable so that trains passed between Starbeck and Knaresborough, and then at Hammerton. York-Hammerton is 12 minutes, so you'd only have 6 minutes layover at York each half hour. You'd probably cut out a set this way, but expose yourself to instability when things started to run late.

 

[NorthernDriver]

Platform 8 has also been used for north bound TPEs orginating at York, as it is easy to store them there when they come out of the Siemens depot early in the morning.

that wont happen in a month of sundays now!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is already a half-hourly service between Leeds-Harrogate-Knaresborough (with one per hour continuing to York), so extending the existing Leeds-Knaresborough service to York would not have any effect on Leeds.
I think that a couple of additional trains run to York in the peak making it half-hourly, but not sure if this is in both directions. (i.e. is it one or 2 extra services using the single-track section during that hour?)

there is an extra service between peak times york-leeds / leeds-york. making it 1/2 hrly. so your just about spot on!

 

[142094]

that wont happen in a month of sundays now!

Probably not, travelled on them twice but thought it was odd they were going from a bay platform and not a through one.

 

[HaxbyFur]

I don't really think there's a big enough demand for the route.

York to Leeds is 25 minutes if you pick a non-stop service which are fairly common and I think it took me about 40/50 minutes to just get to Harrogate last time I used the route, so then the demand comes from how many people need to travel to York or Leeds from Harrogate and Knaresborough, considering either side of these stations it would probably be quicker to get a train to Leeds or York then a faster connecting service. Which again I don't think there is demand for, the A59 and B1220 (i think) connecting York and Harrogate seem to cope perfectly fine minus one or two tractors in summer.

 

[theblackwatch]

I don't really think there's a big enough demand for the route.

York to Leeds is 25 minutes if you pick a non-stop service which are fairly common and I think it took me about 40/50 minutes to just get to Harrogate last time I used the route, so then the demand comes from how many people need to travel to York or Leeds from Harrogate and Knaresborough, considering either side of these stations it would probably be quicker to get a train to Leeds or York then a faster connecting service. Which again I don't think there is demand for, the A59 and B1220 (i think) connecting York and Harrogate seem to cope perfectly fine minus one or two tractors in summer.

You may not think there is demand, you should take a look at the 10.05 from Harrogate to York on Saturdays, last weekend it was full and standing leaving Harrogate and by Knaresboro people were struggling to get on. The problem would be somewhat alleviated if Northern put on more than 2 coaches - on Saturdays, there are three diagrams on Leeds-Harrogate-York services in the daytime. One is a pair of 2-car units, the other 2 are single sets. Annoyingly, another unit spends all day sat in platform 8 (13) at York and comes out for the 17.17 service. Whilst I agree the line may not need more frequent trains, it certainly needs more capacity.

 

[Aictos]

Annoyingly, another unit spends all day sat in platform 8 (13) at York and comes out for the 17.17 service. Whilst I agree the line may not need more frequent trains, it certainly needs more capacity.

That unit sitting in York all day may well be the standby unit to use in case, there's any problems with the other units in use and they need to swap a unit.

It's the same at Kings Cross, there's a 365 sat on platform 9 during the weekday which is the standby unit while at weekends it's a 317 which uses platform 8.

Had a 313 yesterday which had a door problem so FCC used the standby unit which was a 317 as I said above to keep the service going instead of cancelling the remaining workings of the failed 313, that is probably the reason why Northern do the same as do any other TOC.

 

[HaxbyFur]

You may not think there is demand, you should take a look at the 10.05 from Harrogate to York on Saturdays, last weekend it was full and standing leaving Harrogate and by Knaresboro people were struggling to get on. The problem would be somewhat alleviated if Northern put on more than 2 coaches - on Saturdays, there are three diagrams on Leeds-Harrogate-York services in the daytime. One is a pair of 2-car units, the other 2 are single sets. Annoyingly, another unit spends all day sat in platform 8 (13) at York and comes out for the 17.17 service. Whilst I agree the line may not need more frequent trains, it certainly needs more capacity.

Wow, had no idea, I'll pop down and have a look this Saturday because I'm going to be waiting for someone at the station for a bit, what time does it leave?

Also regarding capacity, could Northern not integrate it with an existing route? For example, make the route York > Huddersfield (via Harrogate) and use an extra unit or two on the route? Its just an unresearched theory but still.. or even Leeds > Scarborough via Harrogate if the train was to use Platform 5 at York then change direction.

 

[theblackwatch]

Wow, had no idea, I'll pop down and have a look this Saturday because I'm going to be waiting for someone at the station for a bit, what time does it leave?

Also regarding capacity, could Northern not integrate it with an existing route? For example, make the route York > Huddersfield (via Harrogate) and use an extra unit or two on the route? Its just an unresearched theory but still.. or even Leeds > Scarborough via Harrogate if the train was to use Platform 5 at York then change direction.

If you're going to be at York to see it arrive at around 10.40-10.45, it will be pretty full. There are actually people who avoid travelling on this train and get the one an hour earlier (which is normally 4 vehicles) to ensure they have a comfortable journey.

Nobody in their right mind would want to travel from Leeds to York or vv via Harrogate, the journey takes around over twice as long, if I was wanting to go from Leeds to Scarborough I certainly wouldn't want the train to go via Harrogate! The majority of the passengers on the line are those travelling from intermediate stations to Leeds or York. It's not surprising really - parking in York is expensive with traffic queues to contend with and using the park and ride adds time and cost to the journey.

 

[yorksrob]

Nobody in their right mind would want to travel from Leeds to York or vv via Harrogate, the journey takes around over twice as long, if I was wanting to go from Leeds to Scarborough I certainly wouldn't want the train to go via Harrogate!

Ha ha, I've done that before - the route's far more picturesque than the direct one.

 

[Vulcan]

At Leeds they call it the Poppleton train, in the hope that nobody knows where that is and don't catch it for York.

Looking at the OP's pictures, nobody can say the railway's arn't as good as they were, the clean and shiny 144 of today vs the dirty 141 with skewed blind of then.

 

[142094]

Still called Burley Park at the York end, but I guess there are still people who run down the stairs and see the blind showing Leeds and get on.

Just thinking, is a York - Leeds single the same price as a York - Leeds via Harrogate single?

 

[4SRKT]

Still called Burley Park at the York end, but I guess there are still people who run down the stairs and see the blind showing Leeds and get on.

Just thinking, is a York - Leeds single the same price as a York - Leeds via Harrogate single?

Not sure. A few months ago I travelled Shipley - York on a normal return, and went via Harrogate because there was a replacement bus which I didn't fancy at all on the direct route. I got gripped and the ticket inspector didn't sling me off at Weeton or demand any extra dollar, so I guess it is a valid route.

 

[yorksrob]

Still called Burley Park at the York end, but I guess there are still people who run down the stairs and see the blind showing Leeds and get on.

Just thinking, is a York - Leeds single the same price as a York - Leeds via Harrogate single?

As far as I'm aware it is. I've certainly never been challenged by any of the guards on it.