Battery powered trains

[NLC1072]

If your lifestyle is causing harm, you need to change your lifestyle. Period.

It's not lifestyle, it's the wealthier usually...

*Edit: Nym got to post first!

 

[Eagle]

If we're on about PV Cells here, then theres just too much silicon and Gallium Arsenide in them to be viable IMO, indirect solar has more of a future

What about dye-sensitized PV cells or organic polymer solar cells? Both are cheap to make (and also crap, but we're hoping to make them less crap enough that the cheapness outweighs that).

 

[90019]

Seems a bit odd that the ConDems chose this one with which to even things out between rich and poor..

Ah, so it's political now, is it?
They got rid of a grant system which was a load of sh*te, it's no bad thing.

The point was they could have done over the last several decades, as usual economics stopped (and is still stopping) it.

No, limits of technology at the time was the main thing that prevented the improvement of PV. It is only in recent times that they have had the abilities to make any significant improvements, and because it's so recent they are still prohibitively expensive.

If your lifestyle is causing harm, you need to change your lifestyle. Period.

How about an actual answer instead of a cliche?
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Sorry was thinking about wave power... whole different kettle of fish, I remember seeing a long jointed cylinder floating on the waters surface and using the waves power to operate the joints and collect power from them IIRC a couple of years back in the paper about it

Pelamis. They're based not too far from me, and it's something I'm very interested in and have been keeping an eye on.

 

[NLC1072]

What about dye-sensitized PV cells or organic polymer solar cells? Both are cheap to make (and also crap, but we're hoping to make them less crap enough that the cheapness outweighs that).

But just how many of those would you need to generate a substantial amount of electricity for it to be worth while? I.e. the space/land value of where they are distributed may out weigh economical benefits of using the space for other things... and maintanance costs...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...
Pelamis. They're based not too far from me, and it's something I'm very interested in and have been keeping an eye on.

That's the one!

Also could a mod alter the thread title/and maybe location please?... this thread really isn't just about battery powered trains anymore! =) insanely interesting though!

 

[HSTEd]

What about dye-sensitized PV cells or organic polymer solar cells? Both are cheap to make (and also crap, but we're hoping to make them less crap enough that the cheapness outweighs that).

One of the people from my lab bay in first and second years has ended up attached to a research group working on dye sensitised PV cells....
It will be decades until they are cheap enough and good enough to be much use, and at that point they will be so cheap we could literally paper the outsides of buildings with them.

Still would require nuclear for nightime (and industrial loads) though.

 

[NLC1072]

One of the people from my lab bay in first and second years has ended up attached to a research group working on dye sensitised PV cells....
It will be decades until they are cheap enough and good enough to be much use, and at that point they will be so cheap we could literally paper the outsides of buildings with them.

Still would require nuclear for nightime (and industrial loads) though.

unless you can find an economical way to store and release the energy from the cells to make them less light dependant on their output times... otherwise it kind of makes our dependance on fosil fueled power stations all that more permanent, i.e something that can be turned on and off according to demand.

 

[Nym]

What about dye-sensitized PV cells or organic polymer solar cells? Both are cheap to make (and also crap, but we're hoping to make them less crap enough that the cheapness outweighs that).

Well, I prefer thinking about technology we have NOW and we know works...

Pelamis. They're based not too far from me, and it's something I'm very interested in and have been keeping an eye on.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of wave power, makes a lot less sense than the likes of tidal IMO.

Still would require nuclear for nightime (and industrial loads) though.

And a shed tonne of power electronics for anything to work off them, it's the same problem with any non-synchronous generation method, this includes wind, PV solar, wave, tidal (to a certain extent), etc.

The traditional synchronous turbine systems provide a much 'better' solution for grid connection. Nuclear, Coal, CCGT, OCGT and most bigger Diesel installations.

unless you can find an economical way to store and release the energy from the cells to make them less light dependant on their output times... otherwise it kind of makes our dependance on fosil fueled power stations all that more permanent, i.e something that can be turned on and off according to demand.

Such as?

The only viable way to store massess of energy is by water and gravity.

Flywheels would need to be too big and can't run synchronously like dams and pumps can, batteries are stupid, capacitors are more stupid, and the only other thing I can think of uses heat, but that also has an insanely low energy density.

 

[HSTEd]

Well dye sensitised PV cells all over buildings would atleast provide a nice easy source for air conditioning loads.
But beyond that I got nothing.

 

[Nym]

Well dye sensitised PV cells all over buildings would atleast provide a nice easy source for air conditioning loads.
But beyond that I got nothing.

Anything that currently uses motor drives can be nicely run from any kind of DC sources, but even then it might require level shifts so you take what is currently a 3 stage controller and it becomes a four or five stage controller, running through 1ph or 3ph AC anyway.

Currently, HVAC and Motor Controllers use:

415VAC3P or 230VAC1P (415LN1P) == Rectifier == DC Link == Invertor == Frequency & Voltage controlled 3Phase AC == Motor

You'd need the DC from the PV Cells to be running very close to that of the current DC Links (about 550V) or you'd need to have a level shifter in there, and they are VERY complicated... I've seen one that uses 5 stages of transformers and power electronics before now.

 

[NLC1072]

Well, I prefer thinking about technology we have NOW and we know works...



Yeah, I'm not a fan of wave power, makes a lot less sense than the likes of tidal IMO.



And a shed tonne of power electronics for anything to work off them, it's the same problem with any non-synchronous generation method, this includes wind, PV solar, wave, tidal (to a certain extent), etc.

The traditional synchronous turbine systems provide a much 'better' solution for grid connection. Nuclear, Coal, CCGT, OCGT and most bigger Diesel installations.



Such as?
The only viable way to store massess of energy is by water and gravity.

Flywheels would need to be too big and can't run synchronously like dams and pumps can, batteries are stupid, capacitors are more stupid, and the only other thing I can think of uses heat, but that also has an insanely low energy density.

Precisly what I was thinking, it's why I didn't come up with any suggestion because quite simply there is none, yet... a better idea might be to cover buildings with those black water container things on the roofs (excuse the cruedness of this, I have no idea what it's called) that heat water and then the water is used to heat offices etc, would probably be a better use of space than the PV cells on buildings anyway... and reduce electricity usage...

 

[Nym]

Precisly what I was thinking, it's why I didn't come up with any suggestion because quite simply there is none, yet... a better idea might be to cover buildings with those black water container things on the roofs (excuse the cruedness of this, I have no idea what it's called) that heat water and then the water is used to heat offices etc, would probably be a better use of space than the PV cells on buildings anyway... and reduce electricity usage...

Solar Heating Cells or Solar Heat Exchangers.

And I'm doing really well at the moment, havn't directly called anyone stupid yet or anything... Wonder if anyone in the "Sustainable Living" thread is reading any of this...

 

[NLC1072]

Solar Heating Cells or Solar Heat Exchangers.

And I'm doing really well at the moment, havn't directly called anyone stupid yet or anything... Wonder if anyone in the "Sustainable Living" thread is reading any of this...

... Thanks! lol!

 

[HSTEd]

I project:

54 ESBWRs
40 Enhanced CANDU 6s.

Probably formed as 47 twin unit plants, with all plants being homogenous.
The EC6 plants would eat DUPIC fuel produced from the spent fuel produced by the ESBWRs.
Such a configuration would have a total output of roughly 110GWe at max, with roughly ~90GWe available during the summer or what not due to timing all the refueling and maintenence outages to occur during the summer.

Thats sufficient easily to replace all current electricity generation, all current natural gas use either with computer controlled immersion heaters on economy seven (for hot water) or high tech heat pumps (space heating), or induction cookers and so on (for cooking).
And this still allows the production of ten million tonnes of hydrogen per year.

10 million tonnes of hydrogen per year is enough to hydrogenate all current British coal production to make 200,000bbl per day of synthetic fuel, manufacture all the fertilisers we could ever want and support all current British steel production.
With plenty left over for whatever other uses people can come up with.

Then you can use the waste heat dispersed by these platns to support vast greenhouse complexes (perhaps setting up some sort of Job Guarantee scheme in them).

I calculated a 77% carbon dioxide cut year on year once the project is completed, without accounting for all the out of season foodstuffs that would be produced by teh greenhouse complexes attached to the reactors, thus reducing dependence on imports flown in from Kenya.

 

[fsmr]

One fact has been completely missed by the "greens" and that is when we get the coldest weather conditions with freezing fog, neither solar nor wind power work

Also the local didtribution networks in towns and villages are not designed for 100 % electrical demand, i.e they use a diversity approach with solid fuel, oli and gas supplmenting the heat load which can be over 15 kw alone per house!! Dont beliive me, a few years back the area of Belgarve in Leicester sufffered a serious gas failure for over 3 weeks and residents were given portable electric heaters, resulting in the local grid being shut down. Now with no gas or electric they resorted to portable LPG heaters Add to this the not inconsiderable load of electric car cahrging and you have a major rebuuilding excerside. Not too bad for overhead rural lines, but replacing or doubling up underground power lines in cities and towns with be a mamouth task.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

@fmsr
I'm not persuaded that 'the greens' have failed to recognise the variability of the potential capacity of solar or wind power. In fact, I'm very concerned that you or anyone else might think there is any evidence for such a fundamental error.
But whether that has any truth or not, the UK Government has, finally, made the distinction clear.

In forecasting future demand, it may have been true that the UK Government had been slow in responding to the underinvestment in generating capacity, but that is now in the past. The DECC Report in December (2011) was abundantly clear in forecasting within the 2010's "multiple voltage reductions" and possible "power cuts affecting millions of homes" and has chosen to create binding requirements for generators (electricity power producers) to provide the generating capacity to meet the full potential demand of consumers (incl industy) referring to a 'Capacity Market' as distinct from the traditional market economics concept of a 'Supply Market'..

 

[HSTEd]

One fact has been completely missed by the "greens" and that is when we get the coldest weather conditions with freezing fog, neither solar nor wind power work

Also the local didtribution networks in towns and villages are not designed for 100 % electrical demand, i.e they use a diversity approach with solid fuel, oli and gas supplmenting the heat load which can be over 15 kw alone per house!! Dont beliive me, a few years back the area of Belgarve in Leicester sufffered a serious gas failure for over 3 weeks and residents were given portable electric heaters, resulting in the local grid being shut down. Now with no gas or electric they resorted to portable LPG heaters Add to this the not inconsiderable load of electric car cahrging and you have a major rebuuilding excerside. Not too bad for overhead rural lines, but replacing or doubling up underground power lines in cities and towns with be a mamouth task.

A modern direct air to air heat pump can have a COP approaching 5 for space heating.

This means your 15kW Spaceheating load comes to a rather more reasonable 3kWe draw.
Resistive heaters for space heating are the worst idea in history, unless they are some sort of hyper advanced computer controlled grid-frequency sensitive storage heater.