Battersby to Edinburgh Disputed Delay Repay

[Esker-pades]

I bought an advance ticket for the 6th of October from Battersby to Edinburgh. It turned out to be one of the many Northern strike days and the service I was booked to use did not run. I could not submit my request using the form because it kept throwing up error messages. I therefore sent a request manually via e-mail. This was the e-mail:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I attempted to use your delay repay online form, but it kept giving me error messages which I could not solve. Therefore, I would like to make my request manually via this e-mail.

I made 1 journey on the 6th of October 2018 with Northern which was delayed.
This journey was from Battersby to Edinburgh Waverley on an advance single ticket. My intinerary was as follows:
17:45 Battersby to Newcastle Central arr 19:47.
20:03 Newcastle Central to Edinburgh Waverley arr 22:59.

The 17:45 services from Battersby was cancelled on the 6th of October. This meant I incurred a delay on my journey long enough to qualify for a rull refund of the ticket.

Ticket Details:
Advance Single
From Battersby
To Edinburgh
Valid on the 6th of October 2018
1 Adult with a 16-25 Railcard
Standard Class
£13.20

I have uploaded both a picture of my ticket and a screenshot of the itinerary I was provided with when I bought said ticket as proof of my journey and evidence that I am entitled to the full £13.20 compensation for my journey. My transaction reference given was <string of letters and numbers>.

Method of Compensation:
<Section redacted as it contains personal information.>

Yours faithfully,
Felix <Surname>

I received a response from them today as follows:

Dear Mr Felix <Surname>,

Thank you for your correspondence in respect to the Northern service on 06
October 2018 with our reference <string of letters and numbers>.

Unfortunately, we cannot process such a claim without evidence of purchasing
a ticket; if you are not in possession of the tickets in question anymore
then I am afraid that we cannot validate that you travelled the
aforementioned journey.

As it states in our Customer Promise, you must keep hold of your ticket for
any Delay Repay claims. If you are departing at a station where ticket
barriers are in operation then you must present your ticket to a staff member
explaining your intention to claim for compensation and they will let you
through accordingly.

I hope that the information provided above has clarified the situation for
you and adequately explained why, on this occasion, I am unable to process
your Delay Repay request. However if you have any other queries or require
any further assistance then please do not hesitate to contact us again.


Delay repay does not in any way limit or exclude your other legal rights to
compensation as a consumer where we are at fault, under the Consumer Rights
Act 2015 or otherwise.

Should you have any further queries or concerns then please do not hesitate
to contact us again at delayrepay@northernrailway.co.uk

Kind regards,
Northern

As I provided them with an attached picture of my ticket (as is standard with all delay repay requests I have ever done) and a screenshot of the itinerary that I bought my ticket for and a transaction reference number, I'm not sure what else they could need in order to verify. What have I missed?


Possibly important extra information:
I bought my tickets through LNER's website.

 

[najaB]

Your email doesn't seem to say what services you actually used.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I bought an advance ticket for the 6th of October from Battersby to Edinburgh. It turned out to be one of the many Northern strike days and the service I was booked to use did not run. I could not submit my request using the form because it kept throwing up error messages. I therefore sent a request manually via e-mail. This was the e-mail:


I received a response from them today as follows:


As I provided them with an attached picture of my ticket (as is standard with all delay repay requests I have ever done) and a screenshot of the itinerary that I bought my ticket for and a transaction reference number, I'm not sure what else they could need in order to verify. What have I missed?


Possibly important extra information:
I bought my tickets through LNER's website.

Do you still have the ticket?

The NRCoT does not permit TOCs to refuse to pay compensation where you no longer hold the ticket. So Northern are bang out of line here (as usual!).

 

[Esker-pades]

Do you still have the ticket?

The NRCoT does not permit TOCs to refuse to pay compensation where you no longer hold the ticket. So Northern are bang out of line here (as usual!).

I still have the physical ticket. And a picture.

 

[najaB]

Do you still have the ticket?

It would appear so...

As I provided them with an attached picture of my ticket (as is standard with all delay repay requests I have ever done) and a screenshot of the itinerary that I bought my ticket for and a transaction reference number

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I still have the physical ticket. And a picture.

I don't see what their problem is then. Perhaps they've what they say is "erroneously" rejected your claim.

Respond to them and ask them to check your original claim again, seeing as you have submitted a picture of your ticket and still have your ticket.

 

[Esker-pades]

I've responded to Northern with the following:

Dear Sir/Madam,

In my original e-mail I attached both a picture of my ticket and a picture of the itinerary which I bought the ticket for. I also supplied you with a transaction reference number. Please inform me what additional information you require to prove that I bought this ticket.

Yours faithfully,
Felix <Surname>

 

[yorkie]

If Northern still refuse to pay out then you need to contact Transport Focus.

In addition, you could contact the retailer (LNER) to see if they will provide any assistance. While the issue is between you and Northern, a good retailer might help back you up.

 

[Esker-pades]

Your email doesn't seem to say what services you actually used.

In the event, I had to board an earlier service from Battersby to Newcastle (the 17:04). That meant I could get my booked 20:03 Newcastle to Edinburgh service. I decided it would be much simpler to claim a delay repay as I didn't abandon my journey, but I did have to amend my journey plans at significant inconvenience.
If I had just turned up at Battersby for the 17:45, there would have been no trains until the Sunday.

 

[najaB]

In the event, I had to board an earlier service from Battersby to Newcastle (the 17:04). That meant I could get my booked 20:03 Newcastle to Edinburgh service.

Hmm... That may complicate things. I think that morally you're entitled to compensation since you had to make a longer journey, but Northern are going to try to argue that you didn't arrive later than you planned - so technically you weren't delayed.

Fight the good fight and let us know how you get on.

 

[yorkie]

In the event, I had to board an earlier service from Battersby to Newcastle (the 17:04). That meant I could get my booked 20:03 Newcastle to Edinburgh service. I decided it would be much simpler to claim a delay repay as I didn't abandon my journey, but I did have to amend my journey plans at significant inconvenience.
If I had just turned up at Battersby for the 17:45, there would have been no trains until the Sunday.

If you were not delayed, it's unclear if you have a valid Delay Repay claim.

You were inconvenienced but there doesn't appear to be any clarification regarding what level of conpencompen you are entitled to.

I believe the rail industry should clarify this matter.

I believe you acted beyond any obligations you had, and this has minimised Northern's liabilities.

Had you turned up at the contracted time and found no train, I believe you'd have been entitled to a taxi (or a refund of the taxi cost) and, if your onward train was missed or became delayed, Delay Repay on top of that.

 

[Esker-pades]

If you were not delayed, it's unclear if you have a valid Delay Repay claim.

You were inconvenienced but there doesn't appear to be any clarification regarding what level of conpencompen you are entitled to.

I believe the rail industry should clarify this matter.

I effectively lost 40 minutes through an amended timetable (plus stress etc. after realising my plans for the day were up in the air).
I also would have been delayed if I hadn't done my own research following the booking (which one should not have to do) in order to work out how I would make the journey. In that case, Northern would have a taxi, hotel and replacement tickets to refund.

In this kind of case, I find the framework for compensation/refunds far too restrictive. I can't claim a refund because I didn't abandon my journey. I think delay repay is the most appropriate method to go about claiming money back for this. A full explanation to TOCs about complicated compensation/refund requests often leaves them confused. Experience has taught me to keep everything as simple as possible.

The current hurdle to cross is proving that I actually bought this ticket in the first place. I have contacted LNER (at your advice - thanks) asking if there's anything they can do to prove to Northern that I made the purchase.

 

[alistairlees]

Did you get on at Battersby? I was on the 15.59 Whitby to Middlesbrough that day (17.04 from Battersby).

 

[Haywain]

In the event, I had to board an earlier service from Battersby to Newcastle (the 17:04). That meant I could get my booked 20:03 Newcastle to Edinburgh service. I decided it would be much simpler to claim a delay repay as I didn't abandon my journey, but I did have to amend my journey plans at significant inconvenience.
If I had just turned up at Battersby for the 17:45, there would have been no trains until the Sunday.

I effectively lost 40 minutes

You were not delayed. You would equally not have a claim if you had simply arrived at the station 40 minutes before the departure of a train, but you could still argue you had lost 40 minutes.

f you were not delayed, it's unclear if you have a valid Delay Repay claim.

In my view, it's very clear - there is no valid claim.

 

[island]

If you were not delayed you are not entitled to DelayRepay.

 

[Esker-pades]

Did you get on at Battersby? I was on the 15.59 Whitby to Middlesbrough that day (17.04 from Battersby).

Did you enjoy getting squased by all those football fans at Middlesbrough or were you off by then?

You were not delayed. You would equally not have a claim if you had simply arrived at the station 40 minutes before the departure of a train, but you could still argue you had lost 40 minutes.

No, that's a silly argument. The time one chooses to turn up for a train is one's own choice. I was forced to turn up 41 minutes earlier because Northern had cancelled the train I was booked on.

My other choice was to abandon my journey because Northern had cancelled my train. I didn't want to do that because I didn't want to be stranded and left further out of pocket.


Other points to consider:
At no point did anyone actively inform me of the planned cancellation of my train.
It was only through my own research that I discovered that my train would not run and that I would have to re-consider my journey plans.
I purchased my ticket on the basis that Northern and LNER would provide the trains specified. As Northern did not, they breached the contract of said ticket.
If I had known my train would be cancelled outright, I would not have booked tickets for that train. At the time of booking, I did not have this information. Nobody made any effort to tell me that the service was cancelled until I looked it up (as I tend to do when making a long-distance journey).

I'm not going to dispute that this may not fall under delay repay, but as Northern broke the terms of the ticket, I am entitled to a refund. Especially as they made no effort to tell me that my journey that I intended to make was now no longer possible due to a planned cancellation. I have already attempted to explain why I chose to submit it as a delay repay.


Final thoughts:
This may be an interesting test case. I clearly experienced inconvenience. Northern clearly broke the terms of my ticket. But, the compensation/refund framework may not allow such a claim.
I may have forgone all rights to anything by trying to keep things too simple. That's one of problems with a combination of past bad experiences and cronic overthinking.

 

[Esker-pades]

<Snip>
I believe you acted beyond any obligations you had, and this has minimised Northern's liabilities.
<Snip>

I did, yes. I would do the same again if I was put in a similar position. If this has meant Northern has got out of a refund, then it's annoying but not a great loss.

Sorry, I've been re-reading a lot of this thread and missed that section the first time.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I did, yes. I would do the same again if I was put in a similar position. If this has meant Northern has got out of a refund, then it's annoying but not a great loss.

Sorry, I've been re-reading a lot of this thread and missed that section the first time.

Well I think the solution here is that next time you should delay your journey by turning up only in time for when you were originally scheduled to depart - unless you are desperate to arrive at your destination on time!

 

[Esker-pades]

Well I think the solution here is that next time you should delay your journey by turning up only in time for when you were originally scheduled to depart - unless you are desperate to arrive at your destination on time!

The 20:03 was the last train of the day from Newcastle to Edinburgh (Saturday diverts via the Tyne Valley). I am not in the mental position to put myself through huge amounts of stress for the sake of an easier compensation claim!

 

[alistairlees]

Did you enjoy getting squased by all those football fans at Middlesbrough or were you off by then?

Fortunately I had got off, so I could watch that (and the same on the TPE train to Manchester Airport) from the platform. There were quite a few on my train to Redcar East (and no BTP or other staff, apart from the guard, and unlike the other trains), but the fans were actually fairly quiet and certainly no trouble. I can see why it put other people off though.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The 20:03 was the last train of the day from Newcastle to Edinburgh (Saturday diverts via the Tyne Valley). I am not in the mental position to put myself through huge amounts of stress for the sake of an easier compensation claim!

It may have been the last train, but any Train Company able to procure a taxi or hotel at Newcastle would have been obliged to provide you with one or the other. The delay compensation payable would also have been based on that, inevitably much longer, delay.

A comfortable journey? In most peoples' view, certainly not (unless you are lucky enough to be given a hotel, which seems unlikely). But the way to maximise your rights? Yes.

 

[najaB]

I'm not going to dispute that this may not fall under delay repay, but as Northern broke the terms of the ticket, I am entitled to a refund.

You aren't. You were entitled to a fee-free refund if you chose not to travel, but by travelling you accepted the variation.

That's not to say that I disagree that some compensation should be due, but you can't (quite literally) eat your cake and have it too.

 

[Esker-pades]

You aren't. You were entitled to a fee-free refund if you chose not to travel, but by travelling you accepted the variation.

That's not to say that I disagree that some compensation should be due.

I'll see how far I get with them. They currently don't think I even have a ticket, so I doubt I'll even get to the "is there any compensation due" issue.

 

[some bloke]

I suggest a different way of looking at it.

You did decide not to travel - meaning to use that ticket - following the cancellation.

The fact that you decided to take a different train does not alter that.

So,

"I apologise if I made a mistake in claiming Delay Repay when I should instead have claimed a refund for the cancellation. I request a refund of the cost of this unused ticket, which I enclose in line with National Rail Condition of Travel 30.1.

My itinerary was as follows:
17:45 Battersby to Newcastle Central arr 19:47.
20:03 Newcastle Central to Edinburgh Waverley arr 22:59.
The 17:45 service from Battersby was cancelled on the 6th of October.

As I stated earlier, I did make a journey on that day. However, for the purposes of this request, the main fact seems to be that due to the cancellation I was unable to use the above ticket."

 

[Darandio]

As I stated earlier, I did make a journey on that day. However, for the purposes of this request, the main fact seems to be that due to the cancellation I was unable to use the above ticket I bought."

But they did use the ticket, just on an earlier service. Unless i'm missing something obvious here?

 

[najaB]

But they did use the ticket, just on an earlier service. Unless i'm missing something obvious here?

No, you're not.

 

[Starmill]

In the event, I had to board an earlier service from Battersby to Newcastle (the 17:04). That meant I could get my booked 20:03 Newcastle to Edinburgh service. I decided it would be much simpler to claim a delay repay as I didn't abandon my journey, but I did have to amend my journey plans at significant inconvenience.
If I had just turned up at Battersby for the 17:45, there would have been no trains until the Sunday.

This was a pretty important piece of information to leave it out of the opening post! It's difficult or impossible to give good advice when people choose to leave out details such as the time they actually departed.

As far as I can see, there is nothing to add. If one does not arrive late, it isn't clear that one is entitled to compensation. It could and in my view more than likely should still be paid, but the policy is the policy.

It would be worth having a dedicated thread to discuss that as a policy matter, rather than replying here, if anyone wishes to create one.

 

[Esker-pades]

This was a pretty important piece of information to leave it out of the opening post! It's difficult or impossible to give good advice when people choose to leave out details such as the time they actually departed.

As far as I can see, there is nothing to add. If one does not arrive late, it isn't clear that one is entitled to compensation. It could and in my view more than likely should still be paid, but the policy is the policy.

It would be worth having a dedicated thread to discuss that as a policy matter, rather than replying here, if anyone wishes to create one.

To be fair, the original post was "what extra information can I give Northern so they think I've bought a ticket?" rather than "am I entitled to compensation?". It wasn't relavent to the specific question I was asking.

 

[Esker-pades]

I suggest a different way of looking at it.

You did decide not to travel - meaning to use that ticket - following the cancellation.

The fact that you decided to take a different train does not alter that.

So,

"I apologise if I made a mistake in claiming Delay Repay when I should instead have claimed a refund for the cancellation. I request a refund of the cost of this unused ticket, which I enclose in line with National Rail Condition of Travel 30.1.

My itinerary was as follows:
17:45 Battersby to Newcastle Central arr 19:47.
20:03 Newcastle Central to Edinburgh Waverley arr 22:59.
The 17:45 service from Battersby was cancelled on the 6th of October.

As I stated earlier, I did make a journey on that day. However, for the purposes of this request, the main fact seems to be that due to the cancellation I was unable to use the above ticket."

That is an interesting way to approach it. I did use the ticket for travel though. I would go through that method if I had had to buy a new ticket, but none of the guards who checked my ticket queried it (and before anyone asks, Battersby is unstaffed and doesn't have a ticket machine, so I had no opportunity to buy before I boarded).

The problem here is that because I was pro-active and got an earlier train, my somewhat intelligent response (dispute that if you wish) to being messed around has cost me a refund.

 

[Haywain]

my somewhat intelligent response (dispute that if you wish) to being messed around has cost me a refund.

Your response has cost you nothing as you applied for something that you were not entitled to. You should, instead, write to the TOCs customer relations and explain the inconvenience you feel you incurred and ask them if they would consider compensating you (either monetarily or with one of their free tickets). Going to the appropriate route can often yield better results, and the worst case is you'll have spent a little time in contacting them.