Basingstoke to Southampton Electrification

[GRALISTAIR]

Are there any plans to progressively improve the OHLE on the ECML over a period of time. It seems the WCML OHLE reliablity has improved or am I mistaken?

 

[swt_passenger]

Are there any plans to progressively improve the OHLE on the ECML over a period of time. It seems the WCML OHLE reliablity has improved or am I mistaken?

Yes. A £30million package of modifications is currently taking place, IIRC they are about half way through a three year programme which completes at the end of CP4, ie March 2014.

This project is split into six distinct tasks:
 defect survey – full survey of the ECML to record all defects, all outstanding campaign changes
and any existing non-conformances;
 campaign changes – the implementation of 11 campaign changes. This is the removal of
components or designs with known reliability problems with a modern fit-for-purpose equivalent;
 defect removal – in line with the campaign change delivery, all defects identified as a risk to
performance will be removed with highest priorities being delivered first. A separate work stream
will be used for tunnels where a non-intrusive survey is not practicable. Additional wire runs to
those listed below will be worked on as part of the additional scope;
 vegetation – in conjunction with the lineside team, a detailed survey of all areas of critical
vegetation with specific regard to OLE will be undertaken. This will completed with due regard for
the Group Standards for new infrastructure with consideration of future schemes (such as Auto-
Transformer) being considered. This will include, where required, clearance back to maintainable
boundaries;
 neutral sections – the upgrade of 78 neutral sections to a more reliable type; and
 renewal of crossover and contact wire – the renewal of crossover/contact wire between Kings
Cross and Wood Green

 

[GRALISTAIR]

THANKS VERY MUCH FOR THAT INFORMATION - I just hope the politicians in future can get more balance "Do not do things on the cheap, but do not throw money at it either".

I think we are so used to the Railways being the Cinderella, we have been grateful for anything even stuff done on the cheap.

 

[Robsignals]

Perhaps it will but Network Rail certainly think that it's worthwhile and they'd be in a position to know.

I have no inside info but from past experience of politics in big organisations third rail may now be seen as 'unfashionable' with renewals speced to the max to ensure OHL comes out cheaper...just wild speculation. Out of interest, if it was possible, would you like to see LU converted to 25kV?
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THANKS VERY MUCH FOR THAT INFORMATION - I just hope the politicians in future can get more balance "Do not do things on the cheap, but do not throw money at it either".

Perhaps when the ECML scheme was designed there was an assumption, or hope, that the latest design of rolling stock would be so much beter that it could cope with cheaper, lower specced OHL.

 

[ainsworth74]

Out of interest, if it was possible, would you like to see LU converted to 25kV?

Probably not. As I mentioned earlier I have no issue with third (or fourth as it is on the LU) rail operations for metro services.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Only slightly off topic but I remember when the standard was an ETH index of 66. I thought the 37/4s were woefully inadequate and remember the Class 87s at an ETH index of 74? I think. Is there such a thing as ETH index anymore? What does a pendolino or other rate at now. It must consume a helluva lotta current?

 

[Robsignals]

Probably not. As I mentioned earlier I have no issue with third (or fourth as it is on the LU) rail operations for metro services.

So we can agree DC has the advantage on high density urban systems, the question is where to draw the line - I'd suggest the boundary of the London surburban area etc.
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Only slightly off topic but I remember when the standard was an ETH index of 66. I thought the 37/4s were woefully inadequate and remember the Class 87s at an ETH index of 74? I think. Is there such a thing as ETH index anymore? What does a pendolino or other rate at now. It must consume a helluva lotta current?

Isn't ETH = Electric Train Heating index to specify max no. of coaches the loco can supply depending on their individual rating - air con etc.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'd suggest the boundary of the London surburban area etc.

Seems reasonable, certainly not beyond that and I'd still be looking to convert it to OHLE in due course so that we're operating one system only out of the major London terminals.

 

[Kali]

Only slightly off topic but I remember when the standard was an ETH index of 66. I thought the 37/4s were woefully inadequate and remember the Class 87s at an ETH index of 74? I think. Is there such a thing as ETH index anymore? What does a pendolino or other rate at now. It must consume a helluva lotta current?

57/3 appears to have an ETS ( Electric Train Supply, same thing ) index of 100. The 67s are 66, so yes Pendos appear to be a bit of a glutton ( and I'd like to know what the power-at-rail of a 57/3 pulling a Pendo actually is... ). Wrong thread though, might be worth another?

 

[455/8]

I've noticed a lot of work has been taking place on substations and TP huts as I've been driving around recently, Ash Vale Substation has recently had things removed and knocked down and replaced. Weybridge Substation seems to be having something new built at the moment, so it would appear that there can't be any plans in the pipe line to convert the rest of the SWML from 3rd Rail to OHL.

I personally would rather keep 3rd rail as it's less of an eyesore, when taking a train through the country side you can look out the window and there's nothing to spoil the view but on OHL areas you look out the window and every so often you see the support for the electric supply cables which altough not a major thing I felt does spoil the view somewhat and if your walking through the countryside the OHL doesn't look so picturesque, however growing up with 3rd rail and non electric lines I could be a bit biased against OHL. As a driver on 3rd rail lines it's already hard to spot certain signals I could be wrong but I feel that if OHL is installed this could make difficult to spot signals even harder to see and considering all drivers on the SWML will have never seen OHL this could cause issuses when first installed, however this is just my personal opinion.

 

[Robsignals]

I've noticed a lot of work has been taking place on substations and TP huts as I've been driving around recently, Ash Vale Substation has recently had things removed and knocked down and replaced. Weybridge Substation seems to be having something new built at the moment, so it would appear that there can't be any plans in the pipe line to convert the rest of the SWML from 3rd Rail to OHL.

I personally would rather keep 3rd rail as it's less of an eyesore, when taking a train through the country side you can look out the window and there's nothing to spoil the view but on OHL areas you look out the window and every so often you see the support for the electric supply cables which altough not a major thing I felt does spoil the view somewhat and if your walking through the countryside the OHL doesn't look so picturesque, however growing up with 3rd rail and non electric lines I could be a bit biased against OHL. As a driver on 3rd rail lines it's already hard to spot certain signals I could be wrong but I feel that if OHL is installed this could make difficult to spot signals even harder to see and considering all drivers on the SWML will have never seen OHL this could cause issuses when first installed, however this is just my personal opinion.

The work may be upgrading control and monitoring systems after last years severe delays. When OHL is designed and installed signal sighting is a major concern and some signals will almost certainly have to be moved to ensure minimum sighting times are maintained. You might even find those difficult signals end up better placed.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've noticed a lot of work has been taking place on substations and TP huts as I've been driving around recently, Ash Vale Substation has recently had things removed and knocked down and replaced. Weybridge Substation seems to be having something new built at the moment, so it would appear that there can't be any plans in the pipe line to convert the rest of the SWML from 3rd Rail to OHL.

That's the CP4 project that's been underway for a couple of years to upgrade the DC power supplies in the suburban area to 750 volts DC nominal, as part of the 10 car train strengthening.

All it really shows is that the existing network is operating on the limits, similar schemes are still underway in the Kent and Sussex regions of NRas well. These jobs were being planned a few years ago, so have little bearing on future intentions from 2014 onwards. In any case, OHLE conversion would be spread over so many years, a decision to fit it in a few years time west of Basingstoke wouldn't mean the rest of the network would cease to be upgraded or maintained. Hence the discussion in this (and earlier threads on this particular subject) suggesting that the newer equipment fitted recently on the SWML for Desiro power reinforcement will probably be recycled elsewhere in the 'Southern' region once removed from the SWML.

 

[3141]

I personally would rather keep 3rd rail as it's less of an eyesore, when taking a train through the country side you can look out the window and there's nothing to spoil the view but on OHL areas you look out the window and every so often you see the support for the electric supply cables which altough not a major thing I felt does spoil the view somewhat

If you were as old as I am you'd remember when there were telegraph wires beside most railway lines. As you looked out of the window there was a telegraph pole every so often, and probably more often than the supports for OHLE. The wires hung down between the poles so as the train went along they seemed to swoop downwards after one pole and then up again towards the next.

But only on one side of the line, so if you sat on the other side of the compartment you wouldn't see them...though you might instead be looking at the corridor.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If you were as old as I am you'd remember when there were telegraph wires beside most railway lines. As you looked out of the window there was a telegraph pole every so often, and probably more often than the supports for OHLE. The wires hung down between the poles so as the train went along they seemed to swoop downwards after one pole and then up again towards the next.

But only on one side of the line, so if you sat on the other side of the compartment you wouldn't see them...though you might instead be looking at the corridor.

I am 55 and remember them well. Outside where I lived too, backing on to the WCML just north of Preston - before electrification - which I remember very well also incidentally.

 

[joeykins82]

Good Link, I can see merit in what you are saying, as regards the MML but it just the hit of schemes in one go. Obviously if BR had not been so cash starved it might have achieved these schemes.

Whilst the announcement is a hit of schemes in one go remember this covers a 5-year period so the actual execution of the schemes will (probably) be a continuous, rolling programme

 

[cjmillsnun]

Perhaps when the ECML scheme was designed there was an assumption, or hope, that the latest design of rolling stock would be so much beter that it could cope with cheaper, lower specced OHL.

I don't think the 91s are the problem. More the weather, in particular the wind. The slightest puff can bring the knitting down on parts of the ECML.

 

[ainsworth74]

The slightest puff can bring the knitting down on parts of the ECML.

It's been pretty windy today and they seem to have stayed up...

 

[Robsignals]

It's been pretty windy today and they seem to have stayed up...

Perhaps they got tired of having to keep tying it back up and started using thicker string!

 

[DXMachina]

Or the ultimate weapon - cable ties & duck tape

 

[joeykins82]

I don't know whether it's just that I notice more because there are more people in the office who use the WCML and Thameslink but there seems to be much more frequent issues with power lines on those routes than the ECML, at least in the last 18 months. Are there any hard stats on the reliability of the knitting? Ideally with the cause of each incident (brought down directly by winds, trees or other objects, train/pantograph malfunctions or whatever).

 

[TGV]

The wind doesn't directly bring down the catenary. It is usually pushed out of alignment by wind, then a pantograph comes along and the contact wire is off the end of the horn, pushed underneath and hooked. Or a tree or structure near the line is blown onto it and the first thing to get hit is the OLE.

The other failure that can happen is that the wires resonate in the wind and a dropper or two will fail, but that itself won't bring it all down - you'll need the above scenario with a pan head coming along to really screw it up.

The wires themselves are very robust and extremely unlikely to break simply by the wind alone.

 

[Robsignals]

The wires don't break but the support system can only withstand so much force, or is it designed to give way rather than risk pulling posts/gantrys down. Notice that Eurostar was disrupted today, Mon, due to catenary fault in France so we're not the only ones to have problems!

 

[TGV]

The wires don't break but the support system can only withstand so much force, or is it designed to give way rather than risk pulling posts/gantrys down. Notice that Eurostar was disrupted today, Mon, due to catenary fault in France so we're not the only ones to have problems!

That was caused by a Thalys set on service 9810 bringing the wires down on LGV Nord ligne 2 early in the morning. It was resolved overnight. Caused a lot of damage to the catenaire that did....

EDIT: apologies for veering off topic... Must be the first time that "Thalys" and "Basingstoke" have been joined in a thread. Someone will be along in a moment to bring it back in line.
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The advantage in DC electrification around the time of it's widespread introduction in the first half of the 20th century was that the train-mounted systems were simple for the economically and reliabily available technology at the time. Series DC motors which were wound at the full line potential controlled by switching series to parallel resistors was (and is) simple. DC drives still have an advantage in their relatively compact dimensions (and lack of need for a transformer).

AC transmission (as has been said at length elsewhere) is more economical for high speed, long distance railways or where heavy freight will be electrically hauled. See the Iron Ore Line in northern Sweden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IORE_beim_Tornetr%C3%A4sk.jpg - which, incidentally is one of many examples that disproves the myth that overhead lines suffer disproportionately in cold or snowy weather. Also, in most of mainland Europe, there are thousands of miles of DC electrification with overhead lines rather than 3rd rail - the lines to the ski resorts of the Alps are electrified mostly to 1.5kV DC. I think they'd laugh at the concept of a 3rd rail system in such conditions.

Higher catenary voltages as is typical with AC overheads (15kv to 50kV depending on the system, and with a variety of frequencies) results in lower currents and smaller losses (excluing reactance) - fewer substations are required (but booster transformers every couple of miles are), and current collection at high speeds is far more favourable than with a 3rd rail. Switches and crossings are also simpler. Ideally, 3 phase AC supplies would be used as it is more efficient still than the standard use of single phase - it also has advantages with modern 3-phase drives and regenerative braking, but the problem is in the current collection of 3 phases. There have been solutions to this on some trams, but it's not suitable for a main line high speed railway.

I think the only advantage in the 21st century that remains for a 3rd rail DC network is that it is simpler to construct and integrate with the existing environment - you don't need to worry about gauge clearances, or disturbing areas of natural sensitivity with ugly masts or wires.

Personally, I applaud the decision to convert a main part of the 3rd rail network to the 25kV standard. Dual voltage traction is nothing new, and I think I'm correct in thinking that most DC units in the UK are either already dual voltage 750DC/25kV AC or have provision to be simply modified in having space for a main transformer and a roof well for pantograph and VCBs.

 

[themiller]

Also, in most of mainland Europe, there are thousands of miles of DC electrification with overhead lines rather than 3rd rail - the lines to the ski resorts of the Alps are electrified mostly to 1.5kV DC. I think they'd laugh at the concept of a 3rd rail system in such conditions.

If you think that there is no instance of third rail electrification in the Alps, go to Chamonix in France where you'll find the line which goes to Martigny in Switzerland and you'll find one in an area overlooked by Mont Blanc and which is subject to avalanches in the season. SNCF work the line in conjunction with the Swiss company Transports Martigny et Regions. SNCF trains only run to the last station before the border at Vallorcine but TMR sets run south to Chamonix and beyond. At the northern end the line is overhead supply only and TMR are slowly converting their part of the line from third rail (you may speculate on the reason).

 

[TGV]

Is that the little metre gauge line? I know of it, but it is a very unusual railway. You are correct though it does have 3rd rail DC feed (I don't know the voltage or if it is top, side or underside contact). However I was referring to having a main line involving high speeds and long distances. That route is shorter than most metro/underground lines.