Baroness Thatcher has died

[bb21]

That's rather at odds with the usual rubbish we get from Tory sympathisers about how privatisation saved the rail industry from terminal decline. Get your story straight, please.

And your evidence to back up your claim is?

 

[ainsworth74]

Oh no...you have hit my "sore point" with that relevation....

I won't lie I my fingers hesitated on the keyboard before typing that...

 

[4SRKT]

He wasn't really a pal of Maggie and Jimmy though, which was the context of the 'joke'.

I doubt Scargill set out to screw the miners, even if that's how it turned out. Thatcher did, and as for Savile.....

 

[Butts]

ODD COMMUNITY??????????????? THOSE WERE THE LIVES AND FUTURES OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE THROWN AWAY LIKE THEY WERE NOTHING.

I can not, without being banded from this site in an instant, express my contempt, disgust and bewilderment at this kind of ignorant, insulting and condescending twaddle. You are, frankly a fool. I dare not say any more as my anger at this type of post is rising rapidly.

I mentioned this in an earlier post but you obviously survived and moved out of the area.

Whilst all this was going on what happened to the people safe in Public Sector Jobs in the area ? Did they have empathy with those thrown on the scrapheap and how was this manifested ?

 

[4SRKT]

I mentioned this in an earlier post but you obviously survived and moved out of the area.

Whilst all this was going on what happened to the people safe in Public Sector Jobs in the area ? Did they have empathy with those thrown on the scrapheap and how was this manifested ?

Yet more empathy I see. You seem to be suggesting that people with safe public sector jobs (street sweepers perhaps) should have bailed out unemployed miners. If they didn't then surely that must mean the whole community is worthless and deserved what it got.

It's bad enough listening to people saying that bitch 'saved the country' when the reverse is so clearly true in so many places, without also having to listen to them mocking those who point this out.

 

[DarloRich]

I mentioned this in an earlier post but you obviously survived and moved out of the area.

Whilst all this was going on what happened to the people safe in Public Sector Jobs in the area ? Did they have empathy with those thrown on the scrapheap and how was this manifested ?

Whilst I am sure you know best I must have imagined all the public sector (and other union) rallies, support fund contributions, benefits and filling up food parcels for people.

Please do not try and be clever.

 

[4SRKT]

In York there were people collecting all over the city for the miners. And people gave. Even me and my friends who were 13 at the time. Still, I can see jhow someone reared on Thatxherism would find this as alien as men from Mars.

 

[Butts]

Yet more empathy I see. You seem to be suggesting that people with safe public sector jobs (street sweepers perhaps) should have bailed out unemployed miners. If they didn't then surely that must mean the whole community is worthless and deserved what it got.

It's bad enough listening to people saying that bitch 'saved the country' when the reverse is so clearly true in so many places, without also having to listen to them mocking those who point this out.

I'm not suggesting that at all, I was talking about after the mines closed not during the strike !!

 

[4SRKT]

I'm not suggesting that at all, I was talking about after the mines closed not during the strike !!

Good, i'm glad to hear it.

 

[Butts]

Whilst I am sure you know best I must have imagined all the public sector (and other union) rallies, support fund contributions, benefits and filling up food parcels for people.

Please do not try and be clever.

I am not trying to be clever just trying to establish what happened once the mines closed.

Did the Miners feel let down by the other Unions that could possibly have helped them. I read in The Independent today that Railworkers got a good rise whilst it was going on to keep the coal flowing to the Power Stations.

 

[4SRKT]

I am not trying to be clever just trying to establish what happened once the mines closed.

That wasn't at all obvious until you clarified it TBH.

 

[bb21]

I am now confused. When you said,

Get your story straight, please.

Who was it aimed at?

And people who point out something that a Tory government did that is beneficial to the society is automatically a Tory sympathiser?

 

[Butts]

I think what we are talking about is how the decline of traditional industries such a Mining and Steel (which I'm suprised has not been mentioned)resulted in closures throwing thousands of people out of work during Thatchers time and in other periods post-war.

I am trying to establish whether 30 years later the affected areas are still suffering the consequences of those closures or if new jobs have replaced the traditional ones.

Is there still an underclass out there and how is this defined - ie are the ex-miners living standards lower now than before. Balne Wanderer gave a glimpse of what he saw but has not expanded upon it.

If this is the case how do those still in employment relate to this - or is it a case of out of sight and out of mind.

I tried to start a thread ages ago suggesting that people on higher wages should make some sacrifice to help those lower down but it dissolved into acrimony.

Seemingly most people excluded themselves from being able to help as it was those earning more than them who should take the hit regardless of the reality of the matter.

This would seem to demonstrate that most peoples sympathy to the plight of the low paid does not extend to their wallets.

 

[Railsigns]

I am now confused.

It's quite simple:

One lot of Tories tells us the railways were doing just fine under Thatcher.

Another lot of Tories tells us they were in terminal decline until privatisation saved them.

They can't both be right. So which is it?

And people who point out something that a Tory government did that is beneficial to the society is automatically a Tory sympathiser?

I'll get back to you on that just as soon as a Tory government does something that is beneficial to society.

 

[455driver]

During the miners "strike" I used to work in a garage but was let go because the owner wanted to support the miners, by taking 2 of them on to do my job cash in hand, luckily I got a job in a different garage working with another miner (both of us cash in hand ).

Funny enough the local working mens clubs did alright during the miners "strike", there was still plenty of money spare for beer!

Yes the aftermath of that was severe deprivation in some (rather large) areas of the country but to say it all happened on Maggies watch and was all her fault is disingenuous in the extreme.

My mum and dad lived in a pit village (South Elmsall) and the pit (Frickley) was literally at the top of their street (Broadway) so I spent a lot of time down the clubs with my dad and saw it with my own eyes, including the pre-arranged "hit squads" which were set up to "do" the coppers after they had been drawn away from the main bunch (white shirted coppers were highly prized apparently).

 

[ainsworth74]

It's quite simple:

One lot of Tories tells us the railways were doing just fine under Thatcher.

Another lot of Tories tells us they were in terminal decline until privatisation saved them.

They can't both be right. So which is it?

I take it, to clear up my confusion, that I am therefore in your eyes a Tory? I find this a confusing state of affairs for myself if this is what you mean as I've never voted Tory in a Local, European or General election and I don't plan on doing so in the future.

 

[DarloRich]

I think what we are talking about is how the decline of traditional industries such a Mining and Steel (which I'm suprised has not been mentioned)resulted in closures throwing thousands of people out of work during Thatchers time and in other periods post-war.

And ship building and many others. I think the miners are the most well documented.

I am trying to establish whether 30 years later the affected areas are still suffering the consequences of those closures or if new jobs have replaced the traditional ones.

Yes they are still suffering and no, few jobs have come into these areas to replace those lost. There has been a drain of people away from these areas leaving little behind. Obviously there are success stories, like Nissan, but they are few and far between and do not offer anything like the numbers of jobs.

Is there still an underclass out there and how is this defined - ie are the ex-miners living standards lower now than before. Balne Wanderer gave a glimpse of what he saw but has not expanded upon it.

If this is the case how do those still in employment relate to this - or is it a case of out of sight and out of mind.

I tried to start a thread ages ago suggesting that people on higher wages should make some sacrifice to help those lower down but it dissolved into acrimony.

Seemingly most people excluded themselves from being able to help as it was those earning more than them who should take the hit regardless of the reality of the matter.

This would seem to demonstrate that most peoples sympathy to the plight of the low paid does not extend to their wallets.

There are lots of people living in poverty in this country, not just in former industrial areas. To me that is wrong and is a disgrace. after all we live in a rich country. However we live in the I'm all right jack society so you are quite right in suggesting people dont do much to help their fellow man.

I try to help by donating to appropriate charities fro my wages and giving up my time and where I can. Do i do enough. I doubt it really. However it is part of what i believe in and dont understand those who dont. For many I think it IS a case of out of site out of mind.


(anyway this is a bit O/T!)

 

[bb21]

It's quite simple:

One lot of Tories tells us the railways were doing just fine under Thatcher.

Another lot of Tories tells us they were in terminal decline until privatisation saved them.

They can't both be right. So which is it?

Does it automatically make someone a Tory if they can see some of the good work a Thatcher, or any Tory, government did?

I'll get back to you on that just as soon as a Tory government does something that is beneficial to society.

So all these things below,

How so? Because:

• ECML eletrification + IC225s
• Introduction of large numbers of Pacers and Sprinters
• Introduction of Networkers
• Support for Sectorisation
• Authorisations for various light rail schemes
• Beginning of Channel Tunnel as a rail link
• Reopening of quite a number of stations

All happened under her watch. At worst she was Laissez-faire when it came to the railways but I don't quite see how she was anti-railway? At least in terms of policy if not personal politics.

are not positive things and beneficial to society? What are they then?

Having spent some money to improve some parts of the network does not mean that the railway industry as a whole did not need more serious investment to reverse the decline it was in. Two totally separate concepts.

I don't think she did too badly with all those things, but the railway as a whole was still in terminal decline. There could have been a lot more done, but not doing so does not suddenly make her "anti-railway".

 

[Railsigns]

I take it, to clear up my confusion, that I am therefore in your eyes a Tory? I find this a confusing state of affairs for myself if this is what you mean as I've never voted Tory in a Local, European or General election and I don't plan on doing so in the future.

It's not all about you. I've made a valid observation regarding inconsistent claims put forward by some who clearly hold right-wing views, and whether you vote for the Conversatives, for one of the pseudo-Tory loony-right parties (such as UKIP), or for anyone else, it makes no difference at all.

 

[Butts]

And ship building and many others. I think the miners are the most well documented.



Yes they are still suffering and no, few jobs have come into these areas to replace those lost. There has been a drain of people away from these areas leaving little behind. Obviously there are success stories, like Nissan, but they are few and far between and do not offer anything like the numbers of jobs.



There are lots of people living in poverty in this country, not just in former industrial areas. To me that is wrong and is a disgrace. after all we live in a rich country. However we live in the I'm all right jack society so you are quite right in suggesting people dont do much to help their fellow man.

I try to help by donating to appropriate charities fro my wages and giving up my time and where I can. Do i do enough. I doubt it really. However it is part of what i believe in and dont understand those who dont. For many I think it IS a case of out of site out of mind.


(anyway this is a bit O/T!)

I think "The Minimum Living Wage" should be adopted as "The Minimum Wage"-although this may increase costs for consumers it would reduce the benefits bill and help the low paid.

Also "Rent Controls" would stop profiteering by landlords and reduce the Housing Benefit Bill.

It's easy to say tax millionaires to the hilt but the real money comes from "joe public" in terms of significant amounts. Thats not to say they should not contribute as well.

I fear the truth is we will never have "full employment" and the question is how to deal with and come to terms with this fact.

If only we could take Parties out of Politics the world would be a better place.

 

[ainsworth74]

It's not all about you. I've made a valid observation regarding inconsistent claims put forward by some who clearly hold right-wing views, and whether you vote for the Conversatives, for one of the pseudo-Tory loony-right parties (such as UKIP), or for anyone else, it makes no difference at all.

Very well, I'm still unsure why you picked on my post but obviously it's not worth going around and around on.

 

[4SRKT]

I think "The Minimum Living Wage" should be adopted as "The Minimum Wage"-although this may increase costs for consumers it would reduce the benefits bill and help the low paid.

Also "Rent Controls" would stop profiteering by landlords and reduce the Housing Benefit Bill.

It's easy to say tax millionaires to the hilt but the real money comes from "joe public" in terms of significant amounts. Thats not to say they should not contribute as well.

I fear the truth is we will never have "full employment" and the question is how to deal with and come to terms with this fact.

If only we could take Parties out of Politics the world would be a better place.

Much of this makes a great deal of sense.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

I doubt Scargill set out to screw the miners, even if that's how it turned out. Thatcher did, and as for Savile.....

Unfortunately, although the answer was indeed clear, simple, and straightforward, there is some difficulty in justifiably assigning to it the fourth of the epithets you applied to the statement, inasmuch as the precise correlation between the information you communicated and the facts, insofar as they can be determined and demonstrated, is such as to cause epistemological problems, of sufficient magnitude as to lay upon the logical and semantic resources of the English language a heavier burden than they can reasonably be expected to bear.

 

[ainsworth74]

Unfortunately, although the answer was indeed clear, simple, and straightforward, there is some difficulty in justifiably assigning to it the fourth of the epithets you applied to the statement, inasmuch as the precise correlation between the information you communicated and the facts, insofar as they can be determined and demonstrated, is such as to cause epistemological problems, of sufficient magnitude as to lay upon the logical and semantic resources of the English language a heavier burden than they can reasonably be expected to bear.

You are Sir Humphrey Appleby and I claim my £10!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Unfortunately, although the answer was indeed clear, simple, and straightforward, there is some difficulty in justifiably assigning to it the fourth of the epithets you applied to the statement, inasmuch as the precise correlation between the information you communicated and the facts, insofar as they can be determined and demonstrated, is such as to cause epistemological problems, of sufficient magnitude as to lay upon the logical and semantic resources of the English language a heavier burden than they can reasonably be expected to bear.

I appear to have a literary alter-ego upon this forum...

I had to look twice, just to make sure that I had not composed this missive in a moment of loquaciousness.

 

[RichmondCommu]

You mean when they adopted a 'free market' economy for this country that had to compete with state subsidised Australian coal and Communist state produced Polish coal?

Hang on a minute, Michael McGahey was a Communist!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I certainly won't be shedding any tears.

She had no compassion for the 96 who died at Hillsborough, or the mining communities she and her cronies destroyed.

As a lifelong football fan, I would wholly agree with your sentiments regarding Hillsborough and Thatchers backing of the South Yorkshire Police. However, it was Arthur Scargill who destroyed the mining communities.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not only that, but he allowed so much immigration that in traditional London areas like Newham and Barking, the majority of the white British population left, in the space of a decade.

Not that this appears to have the capital any harm. The more the merrier I say; at least they have some kind of work ethic.

 

[swj99]

So we should only remember and learn from history of when she was in power then?

The more history, the greater the breadth of knowledge I guess.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The update from the North is their is a large number of people in ex pit villages that have large hangovers this morning

Well they can't be that badly off if they've been able to afford alcohol.

 

[wintonian]

Apparently she may have been not far off broke, with the ongoing bill for her humble abode at the Ritz being paid for by its owners, those democratic stalwarts that are the Barclay brothers.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I do recall that some of the cars produced weren't actually outstanding! Austin Allegro, Morris Marina and the later rustbucket that was the Metro spring to mind, don't think that their design could be the fault of those people who built them!

No but the build quality itself was shocking. There was a huge difference between the build quality of a Ford Capri built in Dagenham against a Capri built in Germany / Belguim / Spain.