Baroness Thatcher has died

[4SRKT]

In 1992, the Lib Dems made a special effort in Bath and they almost certainly got the student vote.

Oh, the irony!

I think you are getting a little carried away with the rhetoric....no one would deliberately set out to destroy the lives of millions....how would they ever be reelected ?

By the millions more whose lives appeared to be improved (and in some cases were improved, at least temporarily) by the destruction of the rest? The heartless Me First culture is evident in spades.

 

[Buttsy]

I grew up in the 70s and 80s and had the fear of being unemployed when I left school as year on year the unemployment figures increased, year on year, the industries where I might get a job reduced. I stayed on at school in 1985 as there was nothing out there for me to go into.

To the most reviled prime minister in 1981, I wish your legacy had died before you. I abhor the 'me me me' culture we now have.

 

[Butts]

I grew up in the 70s and 80s and had the fear of being unemployed when I left school as year on year the unemployment figures increased, year on year, the industries where I might get a job reduced. I stayed on at school in 1985 as there was nothing out there for me to go into.

To the most reviled prime minister in 1981, I wish your legacy had died before you. I abhor the 'me me me' culture we now have.

Believe me this has existed as long as man has - it didn't start in 1979

 

[4SRKT]

[/B]

Believe me this has existed as long as man has - it didn't start in 1979

It was officially endorsed and enshrined in our body politic though. A big change from the post-war concensus.

 

[Buttsy]

[/B]

Believe me this has existed as long as man has - it didn't start in 1979

Do you speak to your neighbours? We did in the 70s and 80s, we don't now. Everybody is in their little castle and screw everyone else...

 

[SS4]

All at taxpayers expense no doubt...

Give it to G4S I say! The architect of privatisation deserves nothing more than having it go out to tender


I wonder what her reputation is in the Falkland Islands? I reckon it's quite high and I hope our biased press doesn't block too much international reaction

 

[Butts]

It was officially endorsed and enshrined in our body politic though. A big change from the post-war concensus.

The same post-war consensus whereby Doctors in the form of the BMA objected to the introduction of The NHS on the grounds it would curtail their members earnings ?

 

[4SRKT]

The same post-war consensus whereby Doctors in the form of the BMA objected to the introduction of The NHS on the grounds it would curtail their members earnings ?

No. The one after the NHS was created. Of course greed has always existed, but for 30-40 years after the war a conscious effort was made to mitigate its effects. Not any more.

 

[soil]

Bath used to be staunch Conservative territory in Thatcher's day. The MP was the party chairman Chris Patten, who was one of the main casualties in the 1992 election when Don Foster surprisingly unseated him. Of course, he has since had a good career as the Governor of Hong Kong until it passed to China and now he is chairman of the BBC Trust.

Labour won 41% of the vote in 1966. It was never a truly safe seat - in 1987, the Liberals (SDP) came with in 2.7% of the Tories, and in the 1992 election, which the Tories won, the Tories got more votes than Labour in 1997, so for the Lib Dems to win in 1992 , when the Tories were still an election-winning party, it shows that Bath was not staunchly Conservative at all.

Quite a few Tory seats fell to the Lib Dems in 1997 (Enfield Southgate for one), that could more reasonably be described as staunchly Conservative, but in 1992, the Lib Dems only won 22 seats, a net loss of 2, so Bath definitely is not one.

 

[radamfi]

Ed Milliband is not likely to openly celebrate Maggie's death! It would be seen to be offensive. He has to be diplomatic.

 

[Butts]

Give it to G4S I say! The architect of privatisation deserves nothing more than having it go out to tender


I wonder what her reputation is in the Falkland Islands? I reckon it's quite high and I hope our biased press doesn't block too much international reaction

You will find that she has a good reputation on the International Scene (except possibly Argentina) somewhat similar to her protege a certain Mr Blair.

 

[SS4]

You will find that she has a good reputation on the International Scene (except possibly Argentina) somewhat similar to her protege a certain Mr Blair.

I always knew Blair was a mini Tory so it's no shock

 

[northwichcat]

Americans aren't happy with the use of the Twitter hashtag #nowthatchersdead because to them it reads as "now that Cher's dead."

 

[Butts]

No. The one after the NHS was created. Of course greed has always existed, but for 30-40 years after the war a conscious effort was made to mitigate its effects. Not any more.

You mean like in the early seventies Conservative Prime Minister Edward Heath bailed out Rolls Royce and Upper Clyde Shipbuilders.

Perhaps if he had won in 1974 a form of Conservative Government in a more moderate form would have come into being.

 

[SS4]

Breaking News: ATOS declare Margaret Thatcher fit for work!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Interesting typo on an early revision of the BBC article
http://i.imgur.com/QHAzZsK.jpg

"Thatcher dies following a strike"

 

[4SRKT]

You mean like in the early seventies Conservative Prime Minister Edward Heath bailed out Rolls Royce and Upper Clyde Shipbuilders.

Perhaps if he had won in 1974 a form of Conservative Government in a more moderate form would have come into being.

Perhaps. Who can tell, but it seems possible.

 

[Butts]

Breaking News: ATOS declare Margaret Thatcher fit for work!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Interesting typo on an early revision of the BBC article
http://i.imgur.com/QHAzZsK.jpg

"Thatcher dies following a strike"

I suspect "Deadly Doug" would have been one of her supporters

 

[SS4]

I suspect "Deadly Doug" would have been one of her supporters

Lowton's strike at the weekend was killer

 

[ainsworth74]

Interesting typo on an early revision of the BBC article
http://i.imgur.com/QHAzZsK.jpg

"Thatcher dies following a strike"

Better than that, one of the anchors on BBC News actually said on air 'strike' rather than 'stroke'!

A briefing paper on state/ceremonial funerals which might be interesting to some. Thatcher will be getting a ceremonial rather than state funeral.

 

[soil]

Breaking News: ATOS declare Margaret Thatcher fit for work!

Under the terms of the Employment and Support Allowance Regulations 2008, passed by the last Labour government, under the contract awarded by the last Labour government, you mean?

Or are you talking about a different ATOS which is all the fault of those nasty Tories.:roll:

 

[Oswyntail]

...Why should we 'agree with him'? Are you saying you think all Thatcher-haters are paid up Labour supporters? Or just mindless automatons?

Not at all. Just that, for once in his life, he is spot on.

It was officially endorsed and enshrined in our body politic though. A big change from the post-war concensus.

The study of the period 1945-79 is fascinating. The consensus that arose after the war, probably lasted until the mid-fifties, when the reality of Britain's declining industrial power became unavoidable. To compete on the world markets, you need at least one (preferably two) of three factors: skilled labour; cheap labour; raw materials. Britain did not have the latter so was already vulnerable. Other countries, particularly Germany, were outstripping Britain in terms of skill, and a heavily unionised workforce was pushing up labour costs. Decline was inevitable, but the policies of Wilson and Heath tried to ignore this: Wilson tried to foster hi-tech industry but found the results were not fast or great enough to help; Heath tried to control wages, but ended up simply in conflicts which ended in bail-outs. It could easily be argued that it was the "me me me" attitude of the unions from 1960-79, and their unwillingness to work with government of whatever shade that meant the rebalancing in the early 80s was harsher than it might have been.

 

[SS4]

Under the terms of the Employment and Support Allowance Regulations 2008, passed by the last Labour government, under the contract awarded by the last Labour government, you mean?

Or are you talking about a different ATOS which is all the fault of those nasty Tories.:roll:

The very same ATOS empowered by the previous government. The WCA has been a farce ever since it's introduction. It amazes me how many people think New Labour were left of centre :roll:

 

[Butts]

Not at all. Just that, for once in his life, he is spot on.

The study of the period 1945-79 is fascinating. The consensus that arose after the war, probably lasted until the mid-fifties, when the reality of Britain's declining industrial power became unavoidable. To compete on the world markets, you need at least one (preferably two) of three factors: skilled labour; cheap labour; raw materials. Britain did not have the latter so was already vulnerable. Other countries, particularly Germany, were outstripping Britain in terms of skill, and a heavily unionised workforce was pushing up labour costs. Decline was inevitable, but the policies of Wilson and Heath tried to ignore this: Wilson tried to foster hi-tech industry but found the results were not fast or great enough to help; Heath tried to control wages, but ended up simply in conflicts which ended in bail-outs. It could easily be argued that it was the "me me me" attitude of the unions from 1960-79, and their unwillingness to work with government of whatever shade that meant the rebalancing in the early 80s was harsher than it might have been.

How would this compare to our closest contemporary who also had to give away an Empire and faced similar economic factors - namely The Republic of France ?

 

[northwichcat]

The very same ATOS empowered by the previous government. The WCA has been a farce ever since it's introduction.

It's been David Cameron who's been claiming for the past couple of years that it's his government that are reforming the benefit scheme.

 

[bb21]

But has any other PM ever been so disliked by so many?

The country was in a mess when Thatcher took over in 79. While she got inflation under control, the same can't be said about unemployment. The graph at http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/unemployment-rate makes interesting reading - in the years leading up to 1984, unemployment more than doubled to almost 12%.

She did not exactly become PM at a good time though. The country was a mess and something had to be done.

Unemployment would probably have gone up regardless in the years to come. The industries were in decline, and all the signs were there. We simply cannot compete with overseas manufacturers if we do not modernise. The unions had far too much power and the country was being brought to its knees. She made a judgement call and decided that if nothing was done then worse was to come, and it probably would have because our industries were not going to be competitive the way they were at the time. Whether what she did was the best course available is open to debate, however she did what she thought was the best for this country. Some people don't seem to understand that if the terminal decline in our industries continued there would likely have been no industries left anyway. In some way she has almost become a scapegoat for what happened simply because she tried to do something about it.

I just cannot understand people who openly celebrate her death. By all means don't mourn her if one doesn't have anything positive to say about her, but to openly celebrate a human being's passing strikes me as being incredibly spiteful and childish. She is no Stalin, nor Fred West, so why all this vitriol?

 

[Butts]

She did not exactly become PM at a good time though. The country was a mess and something had to be done.


I just cannot understand people who openly celebrate her death. By all means don't mourn her if one doesn't have anything positive to say about her, but to openly celebrate a human being's passing strikes me as being incredibly spiteful and childish. She is no Stalin, nor Fred West, so why all this vitriol?

Because the "Left" have never come to terms with the fact she garnered so much support from the "working classes" whom they consider their natural "voting fodder".

 

[Harlesden]

A senior politician is someone who
(a) loves the salary
(b) loves the power
(c) loves the public adulation (outbursts of public condemnation go with the territory)
(d) is prepared to acknowledge the fact that some voters will support him/her while others will not.
Senior politicians are all basically the same type of human being with human failings. For example, a Minister of Sport who can't personally stand one specific sport will not do so much to support that sport as he would support the sport he particularly enjoys.
Nothing particularly good or evil about Baroness Thatcher because no PM acts alone. Many real life Ministers acknowledge that the BBC comedy "Yes Minister/Prime Minister" was fairly accurate in its portrayal of life in the corridors of power. My point being that all PM's have "advisors" and other senior firgures who advise them. Any PM who acts on his/her own initiative ignoring the advice of his/her advisors will become unpopular among those closest to him/her and a PM operating in what has become a frosty working environment cannot last long. In Baroness Thatcher's case, many of those closest to her had something of a "crush" on her - simply because she was a female with power, courage and intelligence - and so she probably did get her own way more than most PM's would.
As I said in my first post in this thread, I feel neither grief nor happiness over her passing, but I do feel disappointment over the way this thread has developed in terms of the lack of respect. My mum taught me that if you have nothing good to say, then say nothing at all. I would have thought that those with a strong aversion to Baroness Thatcher and her policies and therefore almost "celebrating" her passing, would "celebrate" privately and leave the thread clear wishing to share their memories of her achievements and her courage and her dedication even thought at some stage, they may have disagreed with particular things she said or did.
No human being can be liked by everybody. Real life doesn't work that way.

 

[soil]

It's been David Cameron who's been claiming for the past couple of years that it's his government that are reforming the benefit scheme.

Indeed they are, but this particular scheme (ESA) was introduced in 2008. Labour farmed a lot out to the private sector under terms generally described as tails they win, heads we lose.

 

[4SRKT]

I would have thought that those with a strong aversion to Baroness Thatcher and her policies and therefore almost "celebrating" her passing, would "celebrate" privately and leave the thread clear wishing to share their memories of her achievements and her courage and her dedication even thought at some stage, they may have disagreed with particular things she said or did.
No human being can be liked by everybody. Real life doesn't work that way.

Why would you have thought this? You'd like just a thread with people saying how wonderful she was? I thought real life didn't work that way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed they are, but this particular scheme (ESA) was introduced in 2008. Labour farmed a lot out to the private sector under terms generally described as tails they win, heads we lose.

New Labour were knobs. What more can be said?

 

[soil]

The very same ATOS empowered by the previous government. The WCA has been a farce ever since it's introduction. It amazes me how many people think New Labour were left of centre :roll:

One of the things people don't realise is that the original tax credits were brought in by the Tories in 1971, numbers claiming expanded massively in the 1980s, as did the amounts on offer, and then Labour increased rates a lot again, in 1998, when they brought in the tax credits scheme.

So the welfare state really is a consensus scheme, as apparently are high house prices and a casino banking economy fully underwritten by taxpayers.

The idea that the Tories are against the welfare state is clearly nonsense, as they are responsible for much of it.