Bank refuses chargeback because Virgin Trains let me down

[headshot119]

You can appeal the bank's decision to the Financial Ombudsman Service.

Take your back to the financial service ombudsman.

My advice here would be to escalate it to your banks complaints team. Twice I've had issues when a chargeback has been refused and the complaints department have sorted the issue quickly. Always a good step before going to the ombudsman.

 

[najaB]

Virgin give non-transport examples as third party services on their website.

I think the important part of what you've quoted is "Each third party product and service has its own price independent of any other products or services booked at the same time. We do not sell, organise, or arrange any packages."

That doesn't apply to SailRail tickets as they are sold as a single combined fare. I would say you would get pretty far with an argument that the ferry journey isn't a third-party service on that basis.

 

[sheff1]

Indeed they do not. However, the passenger has paid a TOC the relevant fare for transportation between the two points listed on their ticket. If they aren't able to make the journey they want to make they are entitled to a refund based on the ticket price paid. Or are you suggesting that they need to apply for separate refunds for the rail and ferry components of the ticket? If so, how much is each company liable for?

I am not suggesting anything until the OP tells us where and when they abandoned their journey.

 

[najaB]

I am not suggesting anything until the OP tells us where and when they abandoned their journey.

That's a reasonable position to take. Hopefully they will return to provide some more information.

 

[island]

My advice here would be to escalate it to your banks complaints team. Twice I've had issues when a chargeback has been refused and the complaints department have sorted the issue quickly. Always a good step before going to the ombudsman.

The OP mentioned receiving a Final Response which ordinarily means the bank is not taking the matter any further and you have six months to raise it with the Ombudsman.

 

[Marklund]

There's Money Claim Online (MCOL) as well.

 

[furlong]

Irish ferries refused to refund us as they said Virgin Trains were responsible as the retailer

It's very disappointing that you say that Transport Focus lacked the basic knowledge to advise you of the correct way to deal with this situation.

On the face of what you've written and assuming there isn't some key information that you've withheld, a good starting point is the Irish Ferries website

Regulation EU No 1177/2010 concerning the rights of passengers when travelling by sea and inland waterway
Irish Ferries Charter – Disrupted Travel
Obligations Of Carriers In The Event Of Interrupted Travel
EU Regulation 1177/2010 became applicable on December 18th 2012. This Regulation establishes the rights of all passengers to assistance in cases of delayed or cancelled departures and, in some circumstances, to compensation in case of delay of arrival. This document outlines your rights, the responsibility of the operator(Irish Ferries) and how complaints should be handled under the Regulation.

Delays or Cancellations
In all cases, if the sailing you are booked on is cancelled, or delayed by more than 90 minutes, you are entitled to re-routing onto an alternative sailing to your destination at no extra cost, or reimbursement of the ticket price.

So that's the complete ticket price, not just some notional ferry component of it.

Process for Refunds and Claims for Costs Incurred
Application for reimbursement of the cost of travel, or any other costs incurred, should be made in writing to Irish Ferries ( contact details below).
...
In the case of a Sail/Rail ticket...all claims for a disrupted ferry service should be made directly to Irish Ferries. You should ensure that you include copies of any ticket purchased and copies of all receipts for any expenses claimed e.g. accommodation.

 

[najaB]

Thanks Furlong. I had looked for the T&Cs but missed them. I suppose it depends now on when the OP decided not to travel.

 

[Abpj17]

Find the T&Cs (particularly the ones you sign up to in the booking process)

FOS won't take the issue until you've exhausted your banks complaints process.

This kind of protection is only provided by banks if you paid by credit card, not if you paid by debit card.

 

[Kenny888]

I apologise for not providing more details in my original post and thank you all for your really helpful and insightful posts.

I planned to travel from Belfast to London by Dublin but on arriving at Dublin port we were informed that due to bad weather the ferry would not be traveling that night and that due to expected adverse weather there wasn't likely to be ferry service for two days. Irish Ferries then and there refused to help as they argued that our contract was with Virgin Trains and that in their own terms and conditions if there's adverse weather they supposedly don't have any responsibility to help you.

We then called Virgin Trains and after a lot of waiting (we were roaming so very expensive waiting) we got through to someone who said that if we did not complete the journey that day we'd have to buy new tickets. I had suggested to them we could complete the journey by taking the ferry from Belfast to Scotland that was due to go early the next morning but they argued that nope despite the ferry issues in Dublin we would have to buy new tickets if we wanted to do that.

So knowing we could no longer continue the journey we at huge expense flew from Dublin to London.




If it is of interest here are some brief bits of the replies from Irish ferries, Virgin Trains and my bank.

Irish Ferries:
" We are compliant with EU passenger regulation 1177/2010 which defines the rights of passengers to compensation/refunds in certain circumstances. Because the cancellation was due to adverse weather conditions you are not due any refund of fare ( article 14 of the regulations) however you should contact Virgin Trains for a refund as they were the retailer for the journey. "

Virgin Trains:
"I understand your frustration following your severely delayed Sail Rail journey. However, I feel I must reiterate my colleague's advice that, although you have purchased your tickets through Virgin Trains, any compensation due for this delay is the responsibility of the service operator who you have booked to travel with on the affected leg of your journey. In this instance, as your pre-book Irish Ferries service was cancelled, your claim for compensation should be submitted to Irish Ferries for their team to consider. I am pleased to note that my colleague has already forwarded the details of your complaint directly onto Irish Ferries and so trust that you will hear from them in regards to this shortly."

My bank:
"Thanks again for your time on the phone earlier today.

As discussed, I have contacted both Irish Ferries and Virgin Trains on your behalf. When I spoke with Irish Ferries, they advised me that in a situation like yours the correct procedure is for the customer (yourself) to contact the retailer (Virgin Trains) who sold the ticket or tickets. I advised them that you had already done so previously but had not received a response, however Irish Ferries confirmed that, again, this must be chased up with the retailer directly.

I then called Virgin Trains about this but was told they were unable to discuss the matter with me for data protection purposes. Whilst on the phone to them I did ask, hypothetically, what the procedure a customer should follow if they had already been in touch about a complaint and had been told by Virgin Trains that this had been passed on to Irish Ferries but the customer had still not heard anything. I was advised to give you the following number for Virgin Trains to contact about your concerns: 03331 031 031 (select option 1, then option 4, then option 3).

I am sorry we have not been able to help you any more with this matter and would like to advise you that I will now send you my final response letter explaining a bit more about my investigation and what we have discussed."


Also just to add I did use my credit card and my purchase should be eligible for section 75 protection; however my bank for the above reason refused

 

[island]

Was your ticket priced over £100?

 

[Kenny888]

Was your ticket priced over £100?

Yes. I am eligible for section 75 protection; however the bank during their call with me and their final letter stated that I can't use my section 75 protection on my card as Virgin Trains provided me the service of choosing and buying a rail and sail ticket. No idea how they can argue that.

 

[furlong]

Irish Ferries:
" We are compliant with EU passenger regulation 1177/2010 which defines the rights of passengers to compensation/refunds in certain circumstances. Because the cancellation was due to adverse weather conditions you are not due any refund of fare ( article 14 of the regulations) however you should contact Virgin Trains for a refund as they were the retailer for the journey. "

I would suggest that is simply an incorrect reading of the document. While additional compensation is specifically excluded after a cancellation due to adverse weather, I do not see anything that excludes entitlement to a full refund.

Article 14 is of no relevance - it's about training.

Article*14
Training and instructions

There is a paragraph (14) in the section explaining the rationale behind the document but that does not seem to be directly applicable and is anyway in respect of compensation, not refunds.

Article*18
Re-routing and reimbursement in the event of cancelled or delayed departures

1. Where a carrier reasonably expects a passenger service to be cancelled or delayed in departure from a port terminal for more than 90*minutes, the passenger shall immediately be offered the choice between:
...
(b) reimbursement of the ticket price and, where relevant, a return service free of charge to the first point of departure, as set out in the transport contract, at the earliest opportunity.

2. Where a passenger service is cancelled or delayed in departure from a port for more than 90*minutes, passengers shall have the right to such re-routing or reimbursement of the ticket price from the carrier.

3. The payment of the reimbursement provided for in paragraphs 1(b) and*2 shall be made within 7 days, in cash, by electronic bank transfer, bank order or bank cheque, of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was purchased, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made where the journey no longer serves any purpose in relation to the passenger’s original travel plan. Where the passenger agrees, the full reimbursement may also be paid in the form of vouchers and/or other services in an amount equivalent to the price for which the ticket was purchased, provided that the conditions are flexible, particularly regarding the period of validity and the destination.
...
Article* 20
Exemptions
...
3. Article*17(2) shall not apply where the carrier proves that the cancellation or delay is caused by weather conditions endangering the safe operation of the ship

There is no such exemption for Article 18, so I would suggest they may also be in breach of the requirement to have provided a refund within 7 days.

Further, the DfT's guidance is:

7. A passenger travelling on an integrated rail and ferry ticket is considered to have a transport contract with both the rail operator and the carrier and is therefore entitled to be re-routed, refunded or compensated. A passenger can expect any refund to be for the full cost of the ticket in accordance with the relevant section of this document. Details of how to access these entitlements should be available in the carrier’s Terms and Conditions.

and the exemption

Article 17(2) shall not apply where the carrier proves that the cancellation or delay is caused by weather conditions endangering the safe operation of the ship.

Article 19 shall not apply where the carrier proves that the cancellation or delay is caused by weather conditions endangering the safe operation of the ship or by extraordinary circumstances hindering the performance of the ferry service which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.

But you're relying on Article 18.

 

[furlong]

as Virgin Trains provided me the service of choosing and buying a rail and sail ticket. No idea how they can argue that.

By thinking it works like a ticket agency? It doesn't. As I pasted above:

7. A passenger travelling on an integrated rail and ferry ticket is considered to have a transport contract with both the rail operator and the carrier

 

[furlong]

I'd suggest the section of the document on their website I pasted is both correct in terms of the legislation and contractual.

Delays or Cancellations
In all cases, if the sailing you are booked on is cancelled, or delayed by more than 90 minutes, you are entitled to re-routing onto an alternative sailing to your destination at no extra cost, or reimbursement of the ticket price.

Compare that with another section of the document that excludes weather-related problems.

(If this involved me and there isn't something else relevant you haven't told us, I'd have escalated it to the Irish Ferries MD by now, copied to ABTA, as the complaints handling body, and the DfT.)

 

[furlong]

Virgin Trains:
"I understand your frustration following your severely delayed Sail Rail journey. However, I feel I must reiterate my colleague's advice that, although you have purchased your tickets through Virgin Trains, any compensation due for this delay is the responsibility of the service operator who you have booked to travel with on the affected leg of your journey. In this instance, as your pre-book Irish Ferries service was cancelled, your claim for compensation should be submitted to Irish Ferries for their team to consider.

I would agree.

My bank:

"...As discussed, I have contacted both Irish Ferries and Virgin Trains on your behalf. When I spoke with Irish Ferries, they advised me that in a situation like yours the correct procedure is for the customer (yourself) to contact the retailer (Virgin Trains) who sold the ticket or tickets.

In a chargeback situation, I'd also expect Virgin to be the one dealing with the matter.

Also just to add I did use my credit card and my purchase should be eligible for section 75 protection; however my bank for the above reason refused

So has the bank actually submitted a chargeback claim yet or not? What scheme is this? Visa? Mastercard?

It becomes important to understand the different methods of redress available and the nuances of the different arguments you would need to use to support the different types of claim.

 

[philthetube]

I admit I don't know if consumer legislation specifically exempts transport but if not the claim is against Virgin as the customer did not get what he paid for, just as much s if he ordered groceries from a supermarket, virgin then have a claim against North Sea Ferries,

Unless it is written in law that the NRCoT overides consumer law then Virgin should pay.

Which seems to me to be a good route to go here as they love this stuff.

 

[Kenny888]

Furlong, that is some incredible research!

However I think they might be able to argue that technically they did offer rerouting in that they said their ferries would be running as normal after two days.

"2. Where a passenger service is cancelled or delayed in departure from a port for more than 90*minutes, passengers shall have the right to such re-routing or reimbursement of the ticket price from the carrier."

It was Virgin Trains that said that even if we took another ferry (such as the one from Belfast to Scotland) that firstly we couldn't use another ferry company and secondarily if the journey was not completed that day we'd have to buy new tickets.

From what I understand my bank did submit a visa charge-back request using the section 75 protection on my credit card which Virgin successfully argued against because they argue they simply provide the service of choosing tickets and are not responsible for the journey.

The bank then attempted to find out who was responsible for the journey but was unsuccessful.

 

[furlong]

From what I understand my bank did submit a visa charge-back request using the section 75 protection on my credit card which Virgin successfully argued against because they argue they simply provide the service of choosing tickets and are not responsible for the journey.

I'm familiar with the Mastercard system rather than the Visa one, but there you (the bank) would refute the argument (resubmit it), and if they in turn deny it again, you push it to arbitration under the scheme (which has an expensive fixed fee banks don't like to have to pay).

 

[furlong]

However I think they might be able to argue that technically they did offer rerouting in that they said their ferries would be running as normal after two days.

I can't see how that counts. It clearly states that the passenger has the right to reimbursement - and no re-routing was offered to you anyway, was it? A later ferry on the same route is not re-routing. To re-route - "To send by or along a different route; to divert, redirect." (OED)

Remember, underlying all this would be a breach of contract claim.

 

[Kenny888]

I'm familiar with the Mastercard system rather than the Visa one, but there you (the bank) would refute the argument (resubmit it), and if they in turn deny it again, you push it to arbitration under the scheme (which has an expensive fixed fee banks don't like to have to pay).

There is no appeal beyond the financial ombudsman once you've exhausted your bank's appeals/complaints procedure for visa chargeback.

 

[Kenny888]

I can't see how that counts. It clearly states that the passenger has the right to reimbursement - and no re-routing was offered to you anyway, was it? A later ferry on the same route is not re-routing. To re-route - "To send by or along a different route; to divert, redirect." (OED)

Remember, underlying all this would be a breach of contract claim.

I have to admit I always thought that allowing you to go on a later ferry counted as re-routing otherwise why would they have that as a separate clause because they never re-route and therefore end up giving the same rights to a refund to passengers if there is adverse weather.

Btw this seems to happen all the time!
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/irish-ferries-cancels-six-sailings-for-friday-1.2915363

 

[furlong]

It's in their normal T&Cs that it is the passenger's choice.

26. In the event of a cancelled sailing or delayed sailing likely to exceed 90 minutes after the scheduled departure time, passengers will also be offered the choice between (a) re-routing to the final destination under comparable conditions as set out in these Conditions of Travel at the earliest opportunity and at no additional cost, or (b) reimbursement of the ticket price, [and where relevant, a return service free of charge to the first point of departure at the earliest opportunity]. Such reimbursement of the ticket price at the full cost as purchased shall be made within 7 days in cash, by electronic bank transfer, bank order or bank cheque. Alternatively, if the passenger agrees, the full reimbursement may also be paid in the form of vouchers and/or other flexible services in an amount equivalent to the price for which the ticket was purchased.

No, the dispute here seems not to be about the entitlement to a refund, but merely which party is contractually responsible for paying it, and as I set out already, I believe the answer is the ferry company under the Sail/Rail contract, the train company under the chargeback system, or additionally the bank under a section 75 claim.

 

[Kenny888]

It's in their normal T&Cs that it is the passenger's choice.



No, the dispute here seems not to be about the entitlement to a refund, but merely which party is contractually responsible for paying it, and as I set out already, I believe the answer is the ferry company under the Sail/Rail contract, the train company under the chargeback system, or additionally the bank under a section 75 claim.

Seriously thank you so much for your help!

I will pursue all three at once and see how far I get.

 

[northwichcat]

It was Virgin Trains that said that even if we took another ferry (such as the one from Belfast to Scotland) that firstly we couldn't use another ferry company and secondarily if the journey was not completed that day we'd have to buy new tickets.

I'd question if that is correct as well.

 

[TrainfanBen]

I smell a rat with Virgin here.

If the OP had of been just taking a multi leg domestic train service they'd have assumed liability straight away?

Don't let them wriggle out of this.

 

[furlong]

There is no appeal beyond the financial ombudsman once you've exhausted your bank's appeals/complaints procedure for visa chargeback.

Are you sure there's actually been a chargeback issued? I'm struggling to see how a correctly-issued one could have been defended successfully. Ask for a copy of the chargeback paperwork, showing what Reason Code the bank used, what evidence (of yours) it supplied, and for a copy of the responses. (When I've been involved in one, the bank has always sent me that paperwork without needing to ask for it.)

 

[AlterEgo]

I smell a rat with Virgin here.

If the OP had of been just taking a multi leg domestic train service they'd have assumed liability straight away?

Don't let them wriggle out of this.

Please read the NRCoT and show us where a train company retailing tickets for SailRail has responsibility for a *ferry* cancellation.

 

[northwichcat]

I smell a rat with Virgin here.

If the OP had of been just taking a multi leg domestic train service they'd have assumed liability straight away?

Not quite. Virgin are known to say things which are wrong to passengers. For instance, when passengers travelling on Advance tickets ask about what happens if they are delayed on the first leg and missed the booked train for the second leg they have a script saying if both legs are Virgin then it's OK to catch a later train but if the first leg isn't Virgin then you should ask the train manager before boarding a Virgin service.

 

[furlong]

The Visa chargeback process is detailed in this document page 607 onwards. Details of the Arbitration process follow.