Your suggestion of travelling via Belfast was a no-go because Belfast-Scotland is operated by Stenaline and P&O. Irish Ferries operates Rosslare to Pemboke so that was potentially an option.
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Bank refuses chargeback because Virgin Trains let me down
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paddington
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Section 75 is separate from chargebacks.
Section 75 says that the card company is equally liable with the merchant for fulfilling the contract where the total cost of the goods or services is between £100 and £30000.
Chargebacks can be used for various situations including where the goods or services paid for were not received. However here the card company argues that the service was provided, so will not process the chargeback.
If the legal position is that the service was not provided and a refund is due, the card company is just as liable as Irish Ferries, whether the card company chooses to charge back the transaction or not, and whether it successfully gets any money from Irish Ferries or not. Furthermore AFAIK the consumer is not even obliged to pursue Irish Ferries first although it may be reasonable for them to do this.
Going to the Financial Ombudsman will cost the card company £500. Going to the FOS does not preclude you from going to court via MCOL if the response is not satisfactory. The court won't award compensation (other than any due legally), only the additional costs incurred, but the FOS may award compensation if they find the consumer was mistreated. All three companies involved can be taken to court provided that you can draw up a clear legal case that the money paid should be refunded.
If I am wrong about any of the above then please enlighten me.
Section 75 says that the card company is equally liable with the merchant for fulfilling the contract where the total cost of the goods or services is between £100 and £30000.
Chargebacks can be used for various situations including where the goods or services paid for were not received. However here the card company argues that the service was provided, so will not process the chargeback.
If the legal position is that the service was not provided and a refund is due, the card company is just as liable as Irish Ferries, whether the card company chooses to charge back the transaction or not, and whether it successfully gets any money from Irish Ferries or not. Furthermore AFAIK the consumer is not even obliged to pursue Irish Ferries first although it may be reasonable for them to do this.
Going to the Financial Ombudsman will cost the card company £500. Going to the FOS does not preclude you from going to court via MCOL if the response is not satisfactory. The court won't award compensation (other than any due legally), only the additional costs incurred, but the FOS may award compensation if they find the consumer was mistreated. All three companies involved can be taken to court provided that you can draw up a clear legal case that the money paid should be refunded.
If I am wrong about any of the above then please enlighten me.
To answer a few questions:
1. I think the charge back was issued because I received the disputed money in my account, Virgin Trains then disputed this and my bank then removed the money from my credit card.
2. Jcollins, apparently it was wrong that the chat operative had told me I'd have to buy new tickets and Virgin Trains gave a half apology for that but by then it was too late.
3. The Rosslare route was also cancelled and the only route available was Belfast to Stranraer; however like you point it's a different ferry company so no luck there
1. I think the charge back was issued because I received the disputed money in my account, Virgin Trains then disputed this and my bank then removed the money from my credit card.
2. Jcollins, apparently it was wrong that the chat operative had told me I'd have to buy new tickets and Virgin Trains gave a half apology for that but by then it was too late.
3. The Rosslare route was also cancelled and the only route available was Belfast to Stranraer; however like you point it's a different ferry company so no luck there
You might be best off contacting Transport Focus (formerly Passenger Focus) to try and get them to intervene (as they have successfully done in many other cases) before resorting to the Financial Ombudsman or the small claims court. See www.transportfocus.org.uk
FWIW the bank is under no obligation to issue a chargeback if it does not think it is more likely than not to succeed.
I wouldn't bother. This case is so unusual they will be completely unprepared to help, I'm afraid. They're good in most run-of-the-mill disputes, but I'm not sure they will be much use here.
Haywain
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It seems to me that the issue could be a simple one of terminology. Virgin would rightly refuse compensation for a delay that was caused by the ferry company, but it would be expected that they would issue a refund if requested through the normal refund channels, given that the journey could not be completed. I can see no reason that Irish Ferries would issue a refund for something that they did not sell.
The Sail/Rail & Irish Ferries T&Cs and the legislation all seem to place the responsibility for full reimbursement of the ticket cost (including the rail component of the ticket) within 7 days firmly with the ferry company in the case of cancellation due to adverse weather. (Whether or not they have made some additional arrangement to effect that refund via Virgin is a private matter for them, but it's not provided for in any of the public documentation I can find. Perhaps they're confusing these tickets with travel as part of a package deal for which different rules might apply - I haven't checked?)
It is outside their scope.
furlong has explained why it is Irish Ferries who should have refunded the ticket. Irish Ferries' reply suggest that they have confused "refund" with "compensation".
If you have gone through the Irish Ferries complaints procedure the next step would be to contact the relevant National Enforcement Body (NEB) which, as the (non) departure was from Dublin, is the Irish National Transport Authority. However, if you resident in the UK you could contact the UK NEB in the first instance as they may be willing/able to assist*. Contact details for the NEBs are in this document http://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...doc/2010_1177_national_enforcement_bodies.pdf
*The UK NEB did assist me, but my issue involved a country who do not use English as an official language, which obviously is not the case with Ireland
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Indeed. Their own T&Cs make it clear that Kenny888 is entitled to a refund of the amount paid and that they are responsible for refunding it.
In itself that would not preclude a re-route, in the same way as TOCs here might re-route someone onto a different TOC at times of disruption. Airlines too sometimes re-route between each other (not just within the same alliance) and have even been known to re-route onto trains.
Of course, there is every chance that Irish Ferries/Stenaline/P&O do not have reciprocal arrangements with each other and so such re-routes are not possible, but in similar circumstances I would always ask, as you never know.
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
There's some other complications. If the journey starts in Ireland they have to charge a fare in Euros which presumably Virgin got exchanged in pounds and it's likely the exchange rate has changed since the ticket was purchased. Also because it starts in Ireland Irish law would apply not British law.
Whether or not it's Virgin's responsibility they presumably want to sell Rail Sail tickets so should be more helpful than they are being e.g. by submitting correspondence to Irish Ferries on the passenger's behalf, otherwise they'll put off passengers and they'll switch to Aer Lingus and Rynair instead.
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Not true. Depends on how/where the ticket was sold. I've travelled back from Ireland several times with a ticket bought and paid for in the UK with pounds.
According to the T&Cs linked to by furlong earlier, it is the entire fare.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
You misunderstand. A single ferry or a return ferry journey starting in Ireland has to be priced in Euros - if it's not true then they are breaking the law....
Moderator's note: for further discussion on this topic, see Debate regarding whether products sold in Ireland have to be priced in Euros
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In that case, Arriva Trains Wales and Virgin must be taking a hosing as the Euro/Pound rate has plummeted since the referendum but the SailRail ticket price has stayed the same.
Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons, SailRail tickets to/from the Republic of Ireland are, presumably, issued under CIV rules.
Article 1 § 3 of said rules states:
COTIF Article 24 § 1 states:
CIV Article 32 is the one that deals with failure to keep to timetable:
It could be argued that § 2a applies in this instance, given the weather is (obviously) outside the control of Irish Ferries. Having said that, it's usual in such circumstances to rebook passengers onto the normal ferry instead, so I'm not entirely sure why that didn't happen in this case...
Article 1 § 3 of said rules states:
CIV Rules said:
COTIF Article 24 § 1 states:
COTIF said:
CIV Article 32 is the one that deals with failure to keep to timetable:
CIV Rules said:
It could be argued that § 2a applies in this instance, given the weather is (obviously) outside the control of Irish Ferries. Having said that, it's usual in such circumstances to rebook passengers onto the normal ferry instead, so I'm not entirely sure why that didn't happen in this case...
As above, chargeback isn't the same as s75.
Briefly, chargeback is your card issuer processing a claim on the merchant. The merchant's view can prevail. S75 is a direct liability on the bank. Claim again explicitly under s75 and be careful about mirroring the language (unless we think the agent thing prevents it applying)
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/how-do-i-use-chargeback
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act
Briefly, chargeback is your card issuer processing a claim on the merchant. The merchant's view can prevail. S75 is a direct liability on the bank. Claim again explicitly under s75 and be careful about mirroring the language (unless we think the agent thing prevents it applying)
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/how-do-i-use-chargeback
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act
DelayRepay
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I used to deal with second stage complaints for a bank (the ones that were complex and couldn't be resolved by the call centre staff). I did get quite a few complaints about Chargebacks. A common issue was customers quoting "Section 75" which only applies to credit cards, and our bank only issued debit cards. But even then the bank should understand what the customer is trying to achieve and explain the correct route to follow.
Chargebacks are not well understood by most bank staff and a common reason for rejection is the wrong reason code being used.
I would suggest asking the bank to supply a copy of the paperwork which I think I and a few others on this thread will be happy to look at.
I would however continue to pursue Virgin Trains and Irish Ferries over this. Whilst you have every right to refer the complaint to FOS, as Chargebacks are not a legal right the FOS will only consider whether the bank followed the correct process. If the FOS conclude that the bank did indeed follow correct process but were unable to obtain a refund for you, they won't compel the bank to reimburse you.
There is more here about the FOS approach: http://www.financial-ombudsman.org....an-news/78/78-claiming-back-payments.html#cs4
If you go to: http://www.ombudsman-decisions.org.uk/ and put "chargeback" in the search box, you can see previous cases the FOS have dealt with.
Chargebacks are not well understood by most bank staff and a common reason for rejection is the wrong reason code being used.
I would suggest asking the bank to supply a copy of the paperwork which I think I and a few others on this thread will be happy to look at.
I would however continue to pursue Virgin Trains and Irish Ferries over this. Whilst you have every right to refer the complaint to FOS, as Chargebacks are not a legal right the FOS will only consider whether the bank followed the correct process. If the FOS conclude that the bank did indeed follow correct process but were unable to obtain a refund for you, they won't compel the bank to reimburse you.
There is more here about the FOS approach: http://www.financial-ombudsman.org....an-news/78/78-claiming-back-payments.html#cs4
If you go to: http://www.ombudsman-decisions.org.uk/ and put "chargeback" in the search box, you can see previous cases the FOS have dealt with.
Contacting the 'Consumer Champion's at The Guardian may be the quickest route to satisfactory resolution.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/series/bachelor-and-brignall-consumer-champions
https://www.theguardian.com/money/series/bachelor-and-brignall-consumer-champions
Sorry I should never have said charge-back. I paid with a credit card and both mine and my partner's tickets were over £100 each so I should have been able to use section 75 protection if not for my bank refusing on the service of providing cheap tickets argument.
DelayRepay
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In that case read here: http://www.financial-ombudsman.org....goods-and-services-bought-with-credit.html#1a
I think where a FOS complaint might fail is: "For section 75 to apply, there must be an unbroken connection between the consumer, the lender and the supplier. Without this connection, the law says that section 75 cannot apply - and so we could not find that the credit card provider was liable to put things right for the consumer." I think FOS may take the view that the supplier was Irish Ferries and you did not have a direct, unbroken relationship with them as you paid Virgin Trains.
So a Section 75 claim would have to be on the basis that Virgin Trains were the supplier who had outsourced provision of part of the journey to Irish Ferries.
In the hopes that this might help someone in the future I have an update; albeit a disappointing one.
So my fight against my bank's section 75 protection, Irish Ferries and Virgin Trains were all unsuccessful.
My bank successfully argued that Virgin Trains provided the service of allowing me to choose the cheapest ticket and so the financial ombudsman ruled in their favour.
Virgin Trains, refused to discuss the matter further and from what I understand they're technically not liable.
Finally, trying to talk to Irish Ferries has been like pulling teeth. As they refuse to acknowledge that EU Regulation No 1177/2010 means they needed to reroute me to my final destination and not just take me on their ferry route.
Also, any attempt at asking for a refund by pointing to the legislation is swiftly followed by them quoting their terms and conditions as if their T&C's are above the law. "Please note that no refund is applicable if due to adverse weather conditions, the Dublin Swift is cancelled and travel is undertaken on our cruise ferry service."
As a last resort, I've forwarded the issue to the Irish Transport Authority and Customer affairs, but not holding out a lot of hope.
However, huge thanks to everyone who helped! Especially Furlong who provided some excellent advice.
So my fight against my bank's section 75 protection, Irish Ferries and Virgin Trains were all unsuccessful.
My bank successfully argued that Virgin Trains provided the service of allowing me to choose the cheapest ticket and so the financial ombudsman ruled in their favour.
Virgin Trains, refused to discuss the matter further and from what I understand they're technically not liable.
Finally, trying to talk to Irish Ferries has been like pulling teeth. As they refuse to acknowledge that EU Regulation No 1177/2010 means they needed to reroute me to my final destination and not just take me on their ferry route.
Also, any attempt at asking for a refund by pointing to the legislation is swiftly followed by them quoting their terms and conditions as if their T&C's are above the law. "Please note that no refund is applicable if due to adverse weather conditions, the Dublin Swift is cancelled and travel is undertaken on our cruise ferry service."
As a last resort, I've forwarded the issue to the Irish Transport Authority and Customer affairs, but not holding out a lot of hope.
However, huge thanks to everyone who helped! Especially Furlong who provided some excellent advice.
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