• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Ban on building level crossings

Status
Not open for further replies.

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,578
Location
Northampton
Apologies if this has been mentioned already.
I have not seen any mention of the WIG WAGS in place outside Fire Stations.
They apply to all road users and not seen any mention of unfamiliararity.
It's been mentioned although not in terms of familiarity. There's also been mention of Wigwags at Airports/RAF bases, and they are also present at Swing Bridges.

I suspect, along with other posters, that the familiarity issue is that actually drivers just don't want to admit to themselves that they break the rules because they see themselves as perfectly safe drivers. There are very few instances in life generally where flashing red lights and a siren means anything other than 'Danger' or 'Keep Out'
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

LondonExile

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2020
Messages
90
Location
Durham
It's been mentioned although not in terms of familiarity. There's also been mention of Wigwags at Airports/RAF bases, and they are also present at Swing Bridges.

I suspect, along with other posters, that the familiarity issue is that actually drivers just don't want to admit to themselves that they break the rules because they see themselves as perfectly safe drivers. There are very few instances in life generally where flashing red lights and a siren means anything other than 'Danger' or 'Keep Out'

It's interesting how some warnings can transcend official instructions.

Years ago I was on holiday in Jersey, and whilst walking near the north coast heard an old WWII air raid siren start up. I didn't realise what was going on, but joked that maybe we should find cover. The subsequent explosion came as a bit of a surprise, but in some ways the warning had done its job!

What I didn't know at the time is that we were by the edge of a working quarry! Presumably we were in a safe area, just that the sound of both the siren and the explosion carry beyond the site boundary, but it was also interesting to think that despite not knowing there was a quarry there, I'd correctly worked out there was a chance of an explosion about to go off.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
7,576
Location
Torbay
I know, and that is great. My point was that noone would accept a situation where a light out = go, red light = stop, no matter how many other safeguards are provided to be certain that the light hasn't gone out for another reason. Effectively an AHB crossing is similar to this situation - there is no absolute proof that the crossing is going to work before it is too late to stop the train.
There must be at least two signal pairs visible for each road approach, and each one has two lamps. That all four would fail to illuminate on demand is extraordinarily unlikely, especially considering that crossings are provided with a 12 hour battery back-up facility to maintain normal operation should mains power fail. Lamps are also monitored for current flow and particular combinations of lamp failures will constitute a failure and be reported to the signaller in the crossing alarm, although that doesn't mean they would always have time to stop an approaching train in such an event as the warning time is so short and there's no requirement for a controllable signal within the strike in distance. Most, if not all crossing signal lamps, are of the LED type today, with a much longer life than previous filament types.
 

Llanigraham

On Moderation
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,488
Location
Powys
It's been mentioned although not in terms of familiarity. There's also been mention of Wigwags at Airports/RAF bases, and they are also present at Swing Bridges.

I suspect, along with other posters, that the familiarity issue is that actually drivers just don't want to admit to themselves that they break the rules because they see themselves as perfectly safe drivers. There are very few instances in life generally where flashing red lights and a siren means anything other than 'Danger' or 'Keep Out'

I suspect that an awful lot of canal boaters recognise that "attitude" at this bridge!
 

SynthD

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2020
Messages
2,040
Location
UK
If you’re looking for a go signal, may I suggest the barriers being in the up position, rather than down. This works for all drivers who don’t drive into obstacles in front of them. Nearly idiot proof.
 

Annetts key

Established Member
Joined
13 Feb 2021
Messages
3,816
Location
West is best
Definitely. This is probably the best argument against wig-wags put on this thread so far. The railway, whilst normally so insistent on fail safe systems has let itself down here. (Incidentally, Automatic Half Barrier Crossings also are not fail safe to the best of my knowledge - if the barrier sticks in the open position, then nothing will stop the train from hitting traffic.)
The wig wag road lights are the instruction to road users to stop. The barriers are additional protection.
As MarkyT says, there must be at least two wig wag signals visible to road users at either side of the crossing, each of which has two red lights. Also as he says, most are now LED type. But even when they were 36W or 50W filament lamps, the failure rate was sufficiently low that it’s very unlikely that a second lamp would blow before the first failed lamp was replaced by maintenance staff. All these lamps are current proved, as described above.

With all conventionally controlled level crossings, every effort has been made to make them as fail safe as possible. Hence at AHB crossings, the barriers are held in the raised position by hydraulic fluid which is itself controlled by an electrically controlled valve. Loss of electrical power to the valve releases the hydraulic fluid pressure and the barrier drops to the ground under gravity (the power feed is intentionally cut for normal lowering).

The maintenance frequency of level crossings is set to check that all barriers (as well as other equipment) are fully functional.

If a barrier drops for any reason, or a track circuit (or axle counter) fails safe at or on the approach to the crossing, then the red road lights come on. Plus, on automatic crossings, special rail mounted wheel detectors are used on approach to the crossing, as soon as a wheel passes over these, the crossing sequence is started regardless of anything else.

What would be ideal would perhaps be a signal that effectively says 'line is ready for the train in all ways except for the level crossing', which would mean that both the door closing and level crossing 'buttons' can be pushed so that everything is ready at the same time. A few seconds here and there do make a big difference - the railway is good at minimising delays impacting the trains, equal priority should be given to minimising delays (and so enhancing safety) to level crossing users.
This if done would have to have very careful thought about how it would work and what equipment would be provided. One of the fundamental rules is that any proceed indication to a train driver of a passenger train cannot be given unless it is safe for the train to proceed. The only exception is for a slow speed move on a permissive platform line where one train will join with another (such as DMU or EMU trains).

My point was that noone would accept a situation where a light out = go, red light = stop, no matter how many other safeguards are provided to be certain that the light hasn't gone out for another reason. Effectively an AHB crossing is similar to this situation - there is no absolute proof that the crossing is going to work before it is too late to stop the train.
The railway is stuck with what the legal requirements are. These are highways standards, not railway choices.

As said above, just with normal road traffic signals, failure of one light/lamp is covered by having multiple lights/lamps. Known as redundancy. Failure of a control circuit results in the red road lights coming on. Trust me, the circuitry and wiring is more complex than it needs to be in order to meet all the safety requirements.

If there are any allegations of a level crossing malfunctioning in an unsafe way, a very detailed and comprehensive investigation and testing process is started. All the crossing equipment and the control systems are fully examined and tested. And until the crossing has been proved to be working correctly, it will not be relied on to provide protection.
 
Last edited:

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,828
How many incidents actually fit the confusion excuse anyway?

I have never heard of a case where there was a level crossing incident where a road vehicle driver successfully claimed in their defence that he or she didn’t understand what the red flashing lights mean. It’s a pretty difficult defence argument, as it demonstrates you don’t know the ‘rules of the road’, and by extension should not be driving on it.
 

mmh

Established Member
Joined
13 Aug 2016
Messages
4,284
I know, and that is great. My point was that noone would accept a situation where a light out = go, red light = stop, no matter how many other safeguards are provided to be certain that the light hasn't gone out for another reason. Effectively an AHB crossing is similar to this situation - there is no absolute proof that the crossing is going to work before it is too late to stop the train.
There are many traffic lights where exactly that situation is accepted - part time signals.
 

boing_uk

Member
Joined
18 May 2009
Messages
619
Location
Blackburn
Not sure if this has been raised already but the Vienna Convention defines what level crossing signals look like. Hence why twin flashing red lights are used almost ubiquitously wherever you are in the world.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
33,689
Location
Scotland
Not sure if this has been raised already but the Vienna Convention defines what level crossing signals look like. Hence why twin flashing red lights are used almost ubiquitously wherever you are in the world.
Interesting. I did not know this so looked it up. Article 33 says (my bold):

1. (a) Where a signalling system is installed at a level-crossing to give warning of the approach of trains or of the imminent closing of the gates (barriers) or half-gates (half-barriers), it shall consist of a red flashing light or of red lights flashing alternately, as specified in Article 23, paragraph 1(b), of this Convention. However:

(i) Flashing red lights may be supplemented or replaced by light signals of the three-colour red-amber-green system described in Article 23, paragraph 2, of this Convention, or by such a signal without the green light, if other three-colour light signals are installed on the road near the level-crossing or if the crossing is equipped with gates;​
(ii) On earth-tracks (dirt roads) where traffic is very light and on footpaths, only a sound signal need be used.​
(b) The light signals may be supplemented by a sound signal in all cases.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top