• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Bali bombers executed.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bighat

Member
Joined
19 Jul 2005
Messages
429
Location
Ilford
It has been claimed that execution will make them martyrs.

So what?

The sooner they bring back capital punishment WORLDWIDE, not only for those who engage in such outrages, but also for those who aid and assist them, the better.

Forget all the religious claptrap, they are terorists, no more, no less.

No TRUE believer or person of faith, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddist or whatever can find any REAL justification in his or her religious belief to support this kind of behaviour.
 

Spaceflower

Established Member
Joined
13 Jul 2007
Messages
1,506
There was just as much filth around in the 90's , 80's, 1900's, 1800's and so on.....

The very existance of the 'wrong or right' division in behaviour, morals, politics or whatever, will mean some will be seen to be wrong and some will be seen as right and some will be confused by what is right and wrong.

The way I see it, we are all hypocrits. We slam terrorists (rightly so), but then impoverish poorer nations like Africa, and then theres those who think we started it in the first place over our thirst for oil (in the case of the middle east).

Who decides what is right and wrong?
 

Pumbaa

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2008
Messages
5,022
The sooner they bring back capital punishment WORLDWIDE, not only for those who engage in such outrages, but also for those who aid and assist them, the better.

Forget all the religious claptrap, they are terorists, no more, no less.

Yes, but here we go with the whole syllogism argument.

What is POPULAR is not necessarily RIGHT. Countries world over have been crying out for capital punishment, Argentina, Ecuador, Sweden (pre unified Europe), several Eastern European countries etc.

It would be a POPULAR choice to bring back capital punishment, but it may not necessarily RIGHT, which is why the politicians have never done it.

Forget all the religious claptrap, they are terorists, no more, no less.

No TRUE believer or person of faith, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddist or whatever can find any REAL justification in his or her religious belief to support this kind of behaviour.

That's the whole point of Religion though - it's a justification of your existence. If the justification for your living is that this behaviour is acceptable, then it is. Again, syllogistic thought needed here. If you are prepared to believe that you belong to a Religion, and you believe in it's values, then it must be right, or it wouldn't be there....

If what you believe is represented by (M) and reality is represented by (R), you have the following possible options of existence:

a - Religion exists in (M) for you, and it exists in (R)
b - Religion exists in (M) for you, but does not exist in (R)
c - Religion does not exist in (M) for you, and does not exist in (R)
d - Religion does not exist in (M) but does exist in (R)

We know that for anything to be valid, it has to be supported in general. Therefore, the only two possible sides to the coin are a) and c), where you believe in religion because it exists, or you don't because it doesn't. Perfect syllogism.

If you are c), you cannot accept the thought of a God, and religion, and therefore it cannot possibly exist at all, because if it did, you would have to believe in it. These are the atheists.

If you are a), you do accept the thought of a God and religion, and therefore it must exist, because to accept it, it must exist. These are believers.

Agnostics are d), they accept that they do not accept the thought of a God and religion, and therefore it does exist, as if it didn't they wouldn't be able to even acknowledge the idea of God and religion.

b) cannot be, as if you thought it, it would have to exist.

For those people, they were a) obviously. Religion can be the meaning of life for people. The only way to understand them is to understand the concept of religion. Difficult process. Very few people are able to do it. Most like to think they can, but it takes years of simply trying to navigate the notion of other being.
 
Last edited:

Bighat

Member
Joined
19 Jul 2005
Messages
429
Location
Ilford
There was just as much filth around in the 90's , 80's, 1900's, 1800's and so on.....

The very existance of the 'wrong or right' division in behaviour, morals, politics or whatever, will mean some will be seen to be wrong and some will be seen as right and some will be confused by what is right and wrong.

The way I see it, we are all hypocrits. We slam terrorists (rightly so), but then impoverish poorer nations like Africa, and then theres those who think we started it in the first place over our thirst for oil (in the case of the middle east).

Who decides what is right and wrong?

Oh, elploitation has been going on since time immemorial.

Think of the British in India and the far east in the 19th century, the Vikings here, raping, looting and pillaging, the entire roman empire for 600 years, the Spartans in ancient Greece.

It's not a new phenomina, and it's probably not going to stop now.
 

Metroland

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2005
Messages
3,212
Location
Midlands
Well yes quite so. We have been cultured to believe certain things are right and wrong, but the truth is far more subjective.

In some countries, corruption and bribery (especially in the Middle East) are seen as a way of life. In some cultures, no overall person in in charge, there are no leaders. One persons terrorist is another persons freedom fighter and so on. Remember Nelson Mandela, did some pretty awful things in the fight for his cause. Killing could be deemed right in some circumstances, eg Capital punishment or war, or fighting for a cause.

In some countries intellectual property like patents and copyright are not respected.

Then there is land laws, what was it someone said, all property is theft? Just think about this: You live in a country or culture that shares common resources and land, eg Water. Then some US corporation moves in and privatises the water supply and even the rain falling from the sky, what would you think? That happened in South America.

Is the patenting of life forms right? Well that's legal in some countries - corporations and individuals actually own life blueprints.

There are many religions with differing views.

We all have views what is right and wrong, I dare say my view of what is right and wrong is much the same as most British people with a few amendments here and there.
 
Last edited:

Pumbaa

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2008
Messages
5,022
Not for me I'm afraid - the return of capital punishment would be one step too far in the direction of an autocracy or alike for my liking. Zero tolerance does little but create fear in people. The wrong kind of people can use fear to their advantage.

Whilst democracy has it's flaws, it is the best of a bad bunch.

The point you make about Mandela is interesting - not least because it's particularly personal to me. But saying "killing could be deemed right in circumstances" is a tad extreme I think! You then have the whole cloudy issue, as already mentioned, of who is to decide what is right and wrong, and who to decide whether or not death is a suitable punishment. Again, all you need is for these decisions to be left to those who want to use them to their advantage.

Having seen first hand (albeit as a child) the power of fear, I am staunchly against capital punishment, or the desire to have any fear creating, people suppressing punishment. Help is more welcome than punishment, in any circumstance.
 

Metroland

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2005
Messages
3,212
Location
Midlands
Point you make about Mandela is interesting - not least because it's particularly personal to me. But saying "killing could be deemed right in circumstances" is a tad extreme I think! .

Don't get me wrong, I am against war as a rule and try to be a peaceful and fair person who sees the big picture - though would be first in the line of defence should this country or my nearest or dearest be attacked.

Ideally, killing is wrong. But if your country is attacked and its people raped and pillaged, to put up no resistance would be remarkable in itself, and most countries, including this one, would declare war on the other side, with no scruples about killing and expect soldiers to fulfil their duties.

That said, I am wholly against things like resource wars and enlargement of empires - which is the main reason wars are fought. Those that are against (rumoured) oil wars such as Iraq, should however realise, they are the indirect cause of them by demanding that resource from their politicians. People blame the politicians for 'oh its all about oil in the middle east', but are quite happy to run 3 cars and fly 6 times per year and totally fail to see the irony. This might not be a popular statement, but as I said, most people do not see the big picture. They do not see the consequences of cheap goods made by child labour, but are quite happy to buy them. They complain about traffic, but are quite happy to drive. They complain about airport expansion, but are quite happy to fly. They moan about unions, but like to enjoy the rights they have fought for.

Personally am for capital punishment for very serious crimes, there is no point in wasting tax payers money on people that will never change or are intrinsically evil.

How about health and safety? Should be aim for total safety? Or is the stark realism, we can never have it. People will always die in accidents. In the end that comes down to a certain extent to money, despite some people saying money is no object, we do not as a society have unlimited resources.

People moan about the railways being expensive, but want them safe. People don't like high fuel prices, but the reality is, its saved far more lives than the billions spent of rail safety post Hatfield.

I really wish life was black and white, and easy, but the reality is it's a million shades of grey and full of compromises.
 
Last edited:

Snapper

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2006
Messages
2,460
Location
All over the place
I do wonder at the idea that the death penalty woud be a deterrent to those willing to die for their cause. I'm sure it would make suicide bombers think twice. don't you? :roll:
 

Spaceflower

Established Member
Joined
13 Jul 2007
Messages
1,506
That said, I am wholly against things like resource wars and enlargement of empires

But if it comes to the crunch, as many academics are predicting may happen in the future, would you really be against it (the 'it's me or you' game)?
A significant number of British people wouldn't give up some eccentric luxuries to save an unseen life, never mind if it came to a fight for the bare essentials.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Personally am for capital punishment for very serious crimes, there is no point in wasting tax payers money on people that will never change or are intrinsically evil.

Who decides?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Pumbaa

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2008
Messages
5,022
I really wish life was black and white, and easy, but the reality is it's a million shades of grey and full of compromises.

Nicely put. I think we all do to an extent, but that would be boring. Millions of shades of uncertainty make it a little more interesting.

Ideally, killing is wrong. But if your country is attacked and its people raped and pillaged, to put up no resistance would be remarkable in itself, and most countries, including this one, would declare war on the other side, with no scruples about killing and expect soldiers to fulfil their duties.

Isn't that the same as what we are seeing now with religion? We are only in this situation because of the past 'blasphemies' we as a society have committed.

Personally am for capital punishment for very serious crimes, there is no point in wasting tax payers money on people that will never change or are intrinsically evil.

Again though, with definite way of saying what's right, what's wrong and who is to judge it is far from easy. A continuum is one solution, but far from trouble free.

Don't get me wrong, I am against war as a rule and try to be a peaceful and fair person who sees the big picture - though would be first in the line of defence should this country or my nearest or dearest be attacked.

A wonderfully ironic statement! Surely the big picture would allow you to see the reason for whatever that has happened happening. Even if it appears random, and for no reason, there is always a reason. Regarding the country, the big picture would surely allow you to see the place the countries involved have in the world? *Not a criticism/insult/a go at you, just a thought*

That said, I am wholly against things like resource wars and enlargement of empires - which is the main reason wars are fought. Those that are against (rumoured) oil wars such as Iraq, should however realise, they are the indirect cause of them by demanding that resource from their politicians. People blame the politicians for 'oh its all about oil in the middle east', but are quite happy to run 3 cars and fly 6 times per year and totally fail to see the irony. This might not be a popular statement, but as I said, most people do not see the big picture. They do not see the consequences of cheap goods made by child labour, but are quite happy to buy them. They complain about traffic, but are quite happy to drive. They complain about airport expansion, but are quite happy to fly. They moan about unions, but like to enjoy the rights they have fought for.

Of course, the moral coin is here. On one side, it is economically efficient for this to occur. Morally right, it probably isn't. But then, who is to decide what is RIGHT and what is POPULAR, which to me underpins this entire sort of area of life. And as we live in a democracy, by default the politicians are right. Damn.
 

Spaceflower

Established Member
Joined
13 Jul 2007
Messages
1,506
And as we live in a democracy, by default the politicians are right. Damn.
__________________
No they aren't. Sometimes they DO right and sometimes they DO wrong, sometimes at the same time.:o In fact probably all of the time.
 

Metroland

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2005
Messages
3,212
Location
Midlands
But if it comes to the crunch, as many academics are predicting may happen in the future, would you really be against it (the 'it's me or you' game)?
A significant number of British people wouldn't give up some eccentric luxuries to save an unseen life, never mind if it came to a fight for the bare essentials.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think that was the point I made about about seeing the big picture. I believe in trade, grass roots democracy, innovation, co-ops and small business, hard work and understanding. I would never advise a zero sum game in order to maintain a specific standard of living. All this historical evidence is, empires and cultures who do this [Expand their reach and have social/technological complexity for the sake of it] eventually collapse.
 
Last edited:

Pumbaa

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2008
Messages
5,022
No they aren't. Sometimes they DO right and sometimes they DO wrong, sometimes at the same time.:o In fact probably all of the time.

Well, they are right, as the key ideal underpinning a democracy is the choosing of people to make choices on the behalf of everybody. Whether or not the choices are the right choices are subjective and a matter of personal opinion, but as a collective the choices made in a democracy by people chosen by people are RIGHT at the time, or it would not be a democracy.
 

Metroland

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2005
Messages
3,212
Location
Midlands
A wonderfully ironic statement! Surely the big picture would allow you to see the reason for whatever that has happened happening. Even if it appears random, and for no reason, there is always a reason. Regarding the country, the big picture would surely allow you to see the place the countries involved have in the world? *Not a criticism/insult/a go at you, just a thought*.

Its not ironic at all! Just because I see the big picture, doesn't mean I don't have to make a compromise - which was the whole point of the post. Killing is wrong...except sometimes we don't have the luxury not to kill. For example in war. IE its not black and white. Equally so, its no good people complaining about things they contribute to. I'm not disagreeing with the benefits/disbenefits, I'm saying were all hypocrites to a certain extent and right and wrong are subjective and not absolute.
 
Last edited:

Spaceflower

Established Member
Joined
13 Jul 2007
Messages
1,506
Just because I see the big picture,

Who made you god?

(That's my way of saying you are coming across as sounding quite arrogant)

Besides, I'm right, everyone else is wrong ;)
 

Metroland

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2005
Messages
3,212
Location
Midlands
Nobody, and that comment is unhelpful.

The post is about seeing both sides of things and making a compromise, nothing more, nothing less. Its not arrogant at all, its designed to make people think by posing questions. Perhaps some of those thoughts are uncomfortable?
 

Spaceflower

Established Member
Joined
13 Jul 2007
Messages
1,506
Equally so, its no good people complaining about things they contribute to. I'm not disagreeing with the benefits/disbenefits, I'm saying were all hypocrites to a certain extent and right and wrong are subjective and not absolute.

I partly agree with this, but partly disagree, especially this bit...

its no good people complaining about things they contribute to.

They may not have a choice (realistically).
 

Metroland

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2005
Messages
3,212
Location
Midlands
nonsense! There are always choices to be made, and not always to our advantage in some regard. That doesn't mean we are stupid or wrong either.

I'm not sure what you are arguing with, I have just posed a series of questions. I haven't actually given my opinion on much, just posed a series of questions to think a little more about the bigger picture. Don't make any assumptions what I agree with.
 

Spaceflower

Established Member
Joined
13 Jul 2007
Messages
1,506
Don't make any assumptions what I agree with.

:lol: I didn't. Don't make assumptions that I am making assumptions, ok?

For the record, I was doing the same as you (I think), that is exploring issues and generating discussion and debate.
I'm not arguing with you.:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
nonsense! There are always choices to be made, and not always to our advantage in some regard. That doesn't mean we are stupid or wrong either.

I don't think this is nonsense, but then it depends on the specific example.

We all have families to feed at the end of the day.

For example, a farmer might complain about unfair trade and poor wages in third world countries, but cant lower his prices without putting himself out of business (if he is not out of business already)

or a working class man may not be able to afford fair trade/organic products, but doesn't mean he can't complain about environmental degradation, does it?

or

the man/woman who needs a car to get to work because public transport is non-existant/too expensive?

etc, etc (I did say realistically, not absolutely)

We all have families to feed at the end of the day.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Metroland

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2005
Messages
3,212
Location
Midlands
Still not sure what you are arguing with chap, I made a point the is no absolutes, if we look at the world as a whole.

I don't disagree about most of the examples you have given with choices, although I could attempt to rub you up the wrong way and say the moral choice, might actually involve spending on less goods, changing jobs or homes - although that's not always the easy choice. In some cases, its not possible, and I never once said that made people 'bad', because like you say, it depends on the circumstances. It is relative. *Some* people make excuses, in fact we all do to a certain extent because things aren't black and white.

If I was to nail my flag to the pole, the point about owing 3 cars and flying 6 times a year (note I never said 1 car and 2 flights per year) was a dig a lefty middle class liberals who do have choice, yet feel fit to write to the guardian about the Governments oil wars. They are as much of a problem as the Government is, because if the Government restrict these sorts of activities they [the middle class left liberals] are the first to complain too. Take this as an observation and a talking point, nothing more. Same as the students that go on the make poverty history rallies, and buy *cheap* designer gear made by kids in India.

In short, the posts are about moral relativism (which some people disagree with, preferring a much more prescriptivism approach) taking responsibility and co-operation, instead of guns and bullets (as a first solution) and blaming others.
 
Last edited:

Spaceflower

Established Member
Joined
13 Jul 2007
Messages
1,506
But couldn't this behaviour be 'socially engineered' into us all?
I agree with your observation, but disagree with your 'digs'. Both you and me are both guilty of the same (I'll risk a gambit on that one). For example, I buy Nike trainers, because I like the style?, they are comfortable for running? and/or I was brainwashed as a kid into thinking they were top shoes?. The point is I still buy them, but disagree with the way they are produced. Is this wrong?
 

Metroland

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2005
Messages
3,212
Location
Midlands
That's for you to decide! As I said, I wouldn't take them as digs, more observations. We live in a capitalist democracy, I fully realise the difficulty and compromise and struggle with them myself. Just because I point out the downsides of things, doesn't mean I'm against them, its about weighing up each side and deciding the logical way forward.

In the end you must decide and take responsibility, all change generally comes from the grass roots.

As for the terrorists, i'd shoot em :) :)
 
Last edited:

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
21,173
Location
0035
Or not shoot them, and leave them to rot in some cell for the rest of there lives?

Much better than giving them what they want surely?

Yep, surely it's more painful to sit locked up for 23 hrs per day on your own for the rest of your life?
 

me123

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2007
Messages
8,510
Yep, surely it's more painful to sit locked up for 23 hrs per day on your own for the rest of your life?

I concur. Not only do I oppose the Death Penalty, but doing this ensures that they aren't conceived as Martyrs. Also, I believe that whichever country allows the execution is as bad as the murderer, so it keeps the country "clean" as well.
 

Metroland

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2005
Messages
3,212
Location
Midlands
What you mean like our country who went to invade another and killed a few thousand :)

The martyrdom point is a good one though. I'm not sure who is more cruel in the end, a quick bullet through the head or years of suffering at tax payers expense lol

Question is, are some people born evil?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7714072.stm
 

Bighat

Member
Joined
19 Jul 2005
Messages
429
Location
Ilford
I do wonder at the idea that the death penalty woud be a deterrent to those willing to die for their cause. I'm sure it would make suicide bombers think twice. don't you? :roll:

Obviously not.

In my view, in respect of terorists, it is NOT intended to be a deterent to them, as you say, with suicide bombers it wouldn't cut much ice.

The idea of executing ALL involved is:-

1) to ensure that they are NEVER able to repeat their heinous deeds, and to save vast sums of money incarcerating them for perhaps many years.

2) to deter those on the periphery who THINK they support the 'ideal'. Without the small army of 'helpers' and sympathisers (who MAY be deterred), it would make the job of the extremist FAR more difficult.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top