Bakerloo Extension: Alternative Route

[DynamicSpirit]

I was thinking, the proposed Bakerloo Line extension could be even more useful, if it was routed a little further South than currently proposed, so it could interchange with the Windrush line at Queens Road Peckham. This would replace the planned Old Kent Road station, so the route from Elephant and Castle would be Burgess Park - Queens Road Peckham - New Cross Gate - Lewisham. If funding allowed you could put an additional station at Willowbrook Estate, between Burgess Park and Queens Road:



With this rerouting, you could then close the New Cross branch of the Windrush line, instead diverting all New Cross trains to Clapham Junction and providing that branch with a 7-8 minute frequency., taking advantage of the new connection opportunities with the Bakerloo line. I'd expect closing the New Cross branch would cause very little inconvenience since anyone wanting to join at New Cross can simply get the more frequent service at New Cross Gate, while anyone coming up from Lewisham and wanting the Windrush line would in any case be better served by taking the Bakerloo line and changing at New Cross Gate, getting a much more frequent service.

 

[brad465]

I can see a couple of problems:

1) Old Kent road is very poorly connected and lots of housing growth is currently not permitted without this extension, so is hard to ignore.
2) Can the route to Clapham Jct handle that increased frequency? Passing through the Denmark Hill-Latchmere corridor isn't the quietest of routes, with freight and three passenger operators alike. Doubling the frequency of one of them would require some expensive upgrade works.

 

[MPW]

I can't find a detailed comment on Queens Road Peckham other than that it was considered but the OKR corridor was deemed more useful as those areas are further from any existing station. Passengers from QRP already have many interchange options at London bridge and the ELL corridor, noting Jubilee Line parallels the bakerloo through the west end.

 

[CMS1]

Could there be a larger hub created in the south incorporating new cross Gate and new Cross, by restoring the mainline platforms at new cross and having the DLR extending to both from Greenwich with a central bakerloo station between them. Windrush already goes to both. To create a 'stratford' in the south east which most mainline services stop at (Lewisham is not on the main line).

 

[30907]

Could there be a larger hub created in the south incorporating new cross Gate and new Cross, by restoring the mainline platforms at new cross and having the DLR extending to both from Greenwich with a central bakerloo station between them. Windrush already goes to both. To create a 'stratford' in the south east which most mainline services stop at (Lewisham is not on the main line).

First thought: has the DLR capacity for these extra trains (I assume you don't propose to close Lewisham).
Second: is it likely that longer distance services (Tonbridge and beyond) would call at Newer Cross? Bear in mind also that there are 20tph ex CHX even on the post-Covid timetable, and LBG requires 4 platforms to handle them; even 3 would be a challenge at New X.

 

[brad465]

Could there be a larger hub created in the south incorporating new cross Gate and new Cross, by restoring the mainline platforms at new cross and having the DLR extending to both from Greenwich with a central bakerloo station between them. Windrush already goes to both. To create a 'stratford' in the south east which most mainline services stop at (Lewisham is not on the main line).

First thought: has the DLR capacity for these extra trains (I assume you don't propose to close Lewisham).
Second: is it likely that longer distance services (Tonbridge and beyond) would call at Newer Cross? Bear in mind also that there are 20tph ex CHX even on the post-Covid timetable, and LBG requires 4 platforms to handle them; even 3 would be a challenge at New X.

There's also no real need for a hub in the New X area, as there are no huge urban regeneration proposals. Stratford had a major regeneration spearheaded by the 2012 Olympics being centred there.

 

[LLivery]

I wouldn't send it to Queen's Road Peckham, but from 'Old Kent Road 2' station, building a 500m walkway would connecting to QRP be nice. I also wouldn't close the New Cross branch; you're making people take three trains from Southeastern land, rather than two. Not really a benefit.

In all honesty, I think you could do several things here for cheaper than serving QPR though - increase Thameslink Catford loop back to 4tph, with all going through Core, and building Nunhead Link platforms at Brockley, diverting something along there to get 4tph.

With some significant bucks - rebuild Elephant Thameslink, connecting directly to Underground (really should be private funding with all the development there) and getting a Walworth-Camberwell Thameslink station, also should have decent private contributions.

All of those things would achieve all you need.

 

[stevieinselby]

Surely it's better to bring the Underground to a densely populated area that doesn't have any rail services than to potentially improve some journeys that people can already make by rail.
Closing the New Cross branch of the Windrush Line would worsen connectivity as it would leave passengers having to make 1 or even 2 additional changes – only about half of SouthEastern trains through New Cross call at Lewisham.

What actual journeys would be improved by moving the Bakerloo Extension to Queens Road Peckham that aren't already easily made by changing somewhere else?
Lewisham already has a half-hourly service via Peckham Rye and Clapham Junction.
Bakerloo to Windrush (core) can be done by changing at New Cross Gate, which has 8 trains per hour on the Windrush line.
Bakerloo to Clapham Junction will be quicker changing at Waterloo onto South Western Railway.

It feels like the only journeys that would actually be measurably better would be journeys between the Bakerloo and Peckham itself, rather than those interchanging at Peckham.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I also wouldn't close the New Cross branch; you're making people take three trains from Southeastern land, rather than two. Not really a benefit.

There are no places South of Lewisham that have a turn-up-and-go frequency to New Cross - and with the current infrastructure very little chance of improvement there. People from 'Southeastern land' wanting to connect with the Windrush line at New Cross are for the most part changing from a half-hourly service to a 4tph service, which in London is pretty crap. (And the Hayes line appears to have no direct trains to New Cross at all). Most places have a much more frequent service to Lewisham, from where the Bakerloo line would run every few minutes. In my experience, if there are trains every few minutes, then an additional change isn't that much of an issue, and arguably could lead to shorter journey times if it means much less waiting for infrequent trains. I regularly make journeys into central London, changing tube trains multiple times - something I wouldn't dream of doing if the trains only ran every half an hour.

From what I've seen when I've travelled, the Clapham Junction Windrush branch is very well used, with trains typically being very crowded - probably not surprising since you have only a 15 minute frequency serving a lot of densely populated areas, so could really use the additional trains. And if there was an opportunity to connect to the Bakerloo line at Queens Road, you can bet those trains would become even busier.

 

[LLivery]

There are no places South of Lewisham that have a turn-up-and-go frequency to New Cross - and with the current infrastructure very little chance of improvement there. People from 'Southeastern land' wanting to connect with the Windrush line at New Cross are for the most part changing from a half-hourly service to a 4tph service, which in London is pretty crap. (And the Hayes line appears to have no direct trains to New Cross at all). Most places have a much more frequent service to Lewisham, from where the Bakerloo line would run every few minutes. In my experience, if there are trains every few minutes, then an additional change isn't that much of an issue, and arguably could lead to shorter journey times if it means much less waiting for infrequent trains. I regularly make journeys into central London, changing tube trains multiple times - something I wouldn't dream of doing if the trains only ran every half an hour.

From what I've seen when I've travelled, the Clapham Junction Windrush branch is very well used, with trains typically being very crowded - probably not surprising since you have only a 15 minute frequency serving a lot of densely populated areas, so could really use the additional trains. And if there was an opportunity to connect to the Bakerloo line at Queens Road, you can bet those trains would become even busier.

No, they don't, there's not many places that have 15 min frequency to Lewisham either, only the Bexleyheath line and Hither Green. Everywhere else is every 30 and from experience, commuters are willing to wait for the 30 min service for the DLR if needed, but not leisure as it does indeed tend to be different story. Ideally, everything would stop at Lewisham, but we've ended up with this pretty inflexible layout.

The Sydenham corridor ELL are the most overcrowded, partly I feel due to the low frequency Southern. As for Clapham Junction, with only one ELL platform, it'd be a problem to get to 8tph, unless they manage to re-open the original platform 1