Baggage on Voyagers

[crewmeal]

I was horrified to hear about the overcrowding on the 10.20 ex B'ham New Street to Scotland last Friday. My family were travelling on that train and all was well until they reached Crewe. Apparently it became so overcrowded on this 5 car voyager, that no one could move and a lady who was travelling to Lancaster could not get off because there was so much baggage at the exits. She was told to go to Oxenholme get off and go back to Lancaster. I have also seen similar problems on the pendlinos in and out of Euston.

I guess this has probably been discussed before but why is Virgin allowed to flaunt safety rules in this way?

 

[Surreytraveller]

I guess this has probably been discussed before but why is Virgin allowed to flaunt safety rules in this way?

What safety rules? And if the doors close before you've had a chance to get off, just pull the egress.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

There are no "safety rules" when it comes to overcrowding on trains, unlike buses in theory we can ram as many in as we physically can. Unfortunately it does happen, what doesn't help is where there are services that run frequently every couple of minutes, yet still people insist on cramming into a 2 car unit then whinge "they should put more carriages on" what's the point when 5mins behind there is a HST?
Virgin wanted longer trains when they ordered the voyagers, but the DFT wouldn't let them... so you now know who really is to blame

 

[87031]

The DFT have a lot to answer for if this is what its come too. Voyagers in standard 5 car form cannot cope with the capacity on busy routes..it seems Pendolinos would of been a better option instead of Vomiters under the wires. A sad state of affairs when people cannot get off the train at there desired stop. Back when there where cross country loco hauled services most Plymouth/Poole/Penzance - Glasgow/Edinburgh these where normally load 12 so how on earth they expect 5 car Voyagers can cope is beyond me :roll:

 

[Geezertronic]

I have been on a Pendolino at Coventry when it was joined by other patrons who had got off a diverted service (issues at Berkswell meant some Birmingham/Wolverhampton services were diverted down the TV) and the driver/train manager said that the train would not move unless people left carriages B & C due to safety and weight reasons.

Apart from this, I have never seen a Pendolino this full during normal service. The DfT did cock up when the Voyagers were ordered and it is no wonder that XC have brought back some HSTs. Maybe VirginTrains should do the same along with doubling the Super Voyagers up on a permenant basis.

 

[northwichcat]

In theory no-one's allowed to block drivers or conductors doors or stand in the aisle if there is a 3+2 seating pattern. However, I was on an off-peak Northern 142 last week which didn't comply with either of those but I don't suppose the conductor wanted to tell 50 people that they had to wait for the next train.

 

[Mojo]

Virgin's refurbishments of Voyagers have drastically cut luggage space, particularly in the coach that contains the shop where it is almost non existant.

 

[gordonthemoron]

the luggage space on Voyagers wouldn't be so bad if the overhead racks could hold anything larger than a briefcase

 

[northwichcat]

the luggage space on Voyagers wouldn't be so bad if the overhead racks could hold anything larger than a briefcase

But then they don't want very heavy items on overhead racks on tilting 221s.

 

[Aictos]

The DFT have a lot to answer for if this is what its come too. Voyagers in standard 5 car form cannot cope with the capacity on busy routes..it seems Pendolinos would of been a better option instead of Vomiters under the wires. A sad state of affairs when people cannot get off the train at there desired stop. Back when there where cross country loco hauled services most Plymouth/Poole/Penzance - Glasgow/Edinburgh these where normally load 12 so how on earth they expect 5 car Voyagers can cope is beyond me :roll:

Exactly, 9 car Voyagers probably would have been better for the XC route, Midland Mainline got it right with 9 car 222s intending to use them on the St Pancras to Leeds service but sadly the Strategic Rail Authority decided not to allow them to run the service.

Now I'm only guessing but if Virgin went with 222s rather then 220s, okay this might mean no tilting available but it's just a luxury which could be added at a later date.

Coach B - Standard Class with driving cab and space for four bikes
Coach C - Standard Class
Coach D - Standard Class
Coach E - Standard Class
Coach F - Standard Class
Coach H - Standard Class with Shop/Buffet counter
Coach J - First Class
Coach K - First Class
Coach M - First Class and driving cab

Don't think that's a bad layout if I might say,

 

[Turbostar]

Surely it's also up to the conductor on duty on the train to ensure that the exits & vestibules are not clogged up with luggage, as per H&S rules? Also, as well as the racks situted in each coach end, isn't there space behind each cab, albeit limited, & providing it's not blocking entry to the cab?

 

[devon_metro]

In theory no-one's allowed to {snip} stand in the aisle if there is a 3+2 seating pattern.

Try telling that to commuters on the Southern cramming into a 12 car 377 at London Bridge/Clapham/Victoria etc

 

[starrymarkb]

The DFT have a lot to answer for if this is what its come too. Voyagers in standard 5 car form cannot cope with the capacity on busy routes..it seems Pendolinos would of been a better option instead of Vomiters under the wires. A sad state of affairs when people cannot get off the train at there desired stop. Back when there where cross country loco hauled services most Plymouth/Poole/Penzance - Glasgow/Edinburgh these where normally load 12 so how on earth they expect 5 car Voyagers can cope is beyond me :roll:

Load 12? You must be joking, they were mostly 5 mk2s and a Duff :P
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Exactly, 9 car Voyagers probably would have been better for the XC route, Midland Mainline got it right with 9 car 222s intending to use them on the St Pancras to Leeds service but sadly the Strategic Rail Authority decided not to allow them to run the service.

Now I'm only guessing but if Virgin went with 222s rather then 220s, okay this might mean no tilting available but it's just a luxury which could be added at a later date.

Coach B - Standard Class with driving cab and space for four bikes
Coach C - Standard Class
Coach D - Standard Class
Coach E - Standard Class
Coach F - Standard Class
Coach H - Standard Class with Shop/Buffet counter
Coach J - First Class
Coach K - First Class
Coach M - First Class and driving cab

Don't think that's a bad layout if I might say,

There is nothing to stop 220s or 221s being 9 car - you just need the extra vehicles

 

[driver9000]

Pre Voyagers the standard XC formation was 7 coaches, 1 First class and 6 standard trailers behind a loco or between HST power cars. I dont remember crowding being as bad as it is since Voyagers came along and since made worse since the trains shrank even more when 185s appeared on the Anglo-Scottish scene.....

 

[Burkitt]

In theory no-one's allowed to {snip} stand in the aisle if there is a 3+2 seating pattern.

Try telling that to commuters on the Southern cramming into a 12 car 377 at London Bridge/Clapham/Victoria etc

Try telling that to the announcer at London Bridge/Clapham/Victoria telling everyone to move right right down inside the carriage!

 

[Oswyntail]

I believe we are coming back to Operation Princess here - good in theory but lousy in practice. If you have a plentiful supply of frequent services, then the shorter formations would suffice. They could then be combined to cover the core sections, more heavily in demand. Unfortunately, VXC were forced to rejig things to make their schedules more robust, so could not provide the required frequency. Much the same thing happened when they introduced 158s on teh Transpennine routes - same theory, same end result. And, of course, it didn't help that DfT cut a coach from each formation (IIRC)

 

[Drsatan]

As well as not allowing Virgin to add extra coaches to its Voyagers in 2003, the SRA forbade it from keeping any HST sets, which meant XC couldn't serve Liverpool or Pompey. That decision was only made to satisfy the urges of some pen-pusher who'd have revelled in the thought of people standing all the way from Leeds to Birmingham New Street in a train that smelt of ****

 

[royaloak]

Pre Voyagers the standard XC formation was 7 coaches, 1 First class and 6 standard trailers behind a loco or between HST power cars. I dont remember crowding being as bad as it is since Voyagers came along and since made worse since the trains shrank even more when 185s appeared on the Anglo-Scottish scene.....

And before that it was a 45/46/47 plus between 8 and 12 coaches, even Cardiff to Plymouth was 45+ 10 coaches.
Edinburgh to Plymouth was 11 coaches with a Deltic to York and a 50 onwards.

 

[Spaceflower]

IMO as long as people pay and put up with it, this sort of thing will continue.

Long distance trains are run in exactly the same way as the tube or any other rapid mass transit, they make as much money as possible.

 

[Surreytraveller]

the driver/train manager said that the train would not move unless people left carriages B & C due to safety and weight reasons.

What a clown! God forbid this joker worked on a commuter train!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In theory no-one's allowed to stand in the aisle if there is a 3+2 seating pattern.

What theory? Some people talk jibberish!

 

[johnb]

The core route frequencies on XC and Brum-Scotland are the same as in the original Princess plans - the reliability gains have come from axing end-route services like Portsmouth, Liverpool, Brighton, etc.

On the core, 7x carriages once an hour were replaced by 4x or 5x carriages every half hour (with cabs etc, so about the same total number of seats). The problem is that patronage has increased far more than Virgin (for it was they at the time) expected.

 

[Geezertronic]

The problem is that patronage has increased far more than Virgin (for it was they at the time) expected.

I would suggest that it is (or was) the Dft who mis-managed the expected growth figures of these services. VirginTrains wanted longer Voyagers and that was denied. Whoever made the decision for XC to get HSTs need commending (unless they work for DfT )

 

[ukrob]

What a clown! God forbid this joker worked on a commuter train!

Yes, because a tilting Pendolino is exactly like a 3+2 commuter train with exactly the same systems isn't it?

What theory? Some people talk jibberish!

Indeed you do

 

[starrymarkb]

I would suggest that it is (or was) the Dft who mis-managed the expected growth figures of these services. VirginTrains wanted longer Voyagers and that was denied. Whoever made the decision for XC to get HSTs need commending (unless they work for DfT )

Though XC could be losing 2 of the HSTs in a looming stock shuffle. Possible to East Coast

 

[Pumbaa]

Though XC could be losing 2 of the HSTs in a looming stock shuffle. Possible to East Coast

Ah now that is an interesting twist. I knew XC were standing down 2 HSTs due to, ahem, monetary issues, but I know NXEC are interested in gaining more... Very interesting indeed!

 

[northwichcat]

Though XC could be losing 2 of the HSTs in a looming stock shuffle. Possible to East Coast

I though NXEC had opted against more loco-hauled stock as they wanted to look at portion workings instead. The 3 180s Northern have are sub-leased from NXEC and I think NXEC are set to have 6 180s next December.

 

[37372]

The current luggage space in Voyagers gets full far too quickly, unfortunately there's only so much free space to provide additional storage areas...
Take a look at this phot I took a couple of years back!

 

[Pumbaa]

I though NXEC had opted against more loco-hauled stock as they wanted to look at portion workings instead. The 3 180s Northern have are sub-leased from NXEC and I think NXEC are set to have 6 180s next December.

Where did that come from exactly? GC have 5, HT have 6 and Northern have the last three that are bound for NXEC.

 

[Mojo]

On the core, 7x carriages once an hour were replaced by 4x or 5x carriages every half hour (with cabs etc, so about the same total number of seats). The problem is that patronage has increased far more than Virgin (for it was they at the time) expected.

How much exactly did passenger numbers increase by? I have a document here from Virgin who state they aim (this was pre-Operation Princess) they aim to have 50% growth in order to cover the costs of the new trains.

 

[northwichcat]

Where did that come from exactly? GC have 5, HT have 6 and Northern have the last three that are bound for NXEC.

As far as I can find out most sources say Hull Trains have 4 180s on lease and currently have one extra one to cover refurbishments.

On checking it's actually 5 180s that NXEC are due. I wrongly thought it would be an even number as they would be doubling them up, but then one must be a spare unit.