Bad traffic enforcement

[Shrop]

I tend to set to 75 on smart motorways (my speedo I believe is fairly accurate). Never understand why some people speed up when you pass them, seems to happen a lot. And of course in the London area you can be guaranteed there will be the usual scourge of people hogging lanes further right then appropriate.

Interesting that you believe your speedo to be fairly accurate and you're still happy to publicly state that you set it to an illegal speed.

What does this tell us about traffic enforcement? Quite simply it tells us that there is such a huge disregard for these laws that we might as well not have them.

In fairness, I personally have no problem with drivers doing 75mph, because I know that many drivers in cars with modern capabilities, can do so pretty safely.

However, what it also tells us is that our legal system is an absolute joke. The law SHOULD be worthy of respect, and yet it clearly isn't. It's part of what makes Britain seen around the world as a soft touch, which ought to seriously embarrass those in power, and yet somehow it doesn't seem to.

Laws on traffic speeds should be there for the purpose of road safety, they should specifically NOT be there simply for the purpose of generating revenue (such as when speed limits are enforced for minor infringements in comparatively safe circumstances) and yet this is often the situation we're in.

I lamented this point right at the start of this thread. What we need is a complete redesign of most of our traffic laws, and the manner in which they're enforced. Including raising motorway speed limits to 80mph for competent drivers.

At 360 posts into this thread, no-one has yet remotely convinced me of any reason why a wholesale review of traffic laws and enforcement thereof, shouldn't happen.

So why do we keep putting up with successive Governments that have little or no interest in doing so?

 

[The exile]

At 360 posts into this thread, no-one has yet remotely convinced me of any reason why a wholesale review of traffic laws and enforcement thereof, shouldn't happen.

So why do we keep putting up with successive Governments that have little or no interest in doing so?

Because there is no pressure to carry out a review which would cost a fortune and merely end up replacing one set of arbitrary rules and “borders” with another set. Borders (or in this case limits) inevitably result in borderline cases which can be whipped up into “being fined for being just over the limit in a reasonably safe area” - wherever those borders are.
No amount of legislation can stop either the brief moment of inattention or deliberate acts of recklessness and I would suggest that the number of accidents where the root cause is neither of those is relatively small (yes - speed is then an aggravating factor). That is not an argument for removal of all speed limits, merely that a comprehensive review - which would probably end up disappearing up its own backside - wouldn’t actually change much.

 

[35B]

Interesting that you believe your speedo to be fairly accurate and you're still happy to publicly state that you set it to an illegal speed.

What does this tell us about traffic enforcement? Quite simply it tells us that there is such a huge disregard for these laws that we might as well not have them.

In fairness, I personally have no problem with drivers doing 75mph, because I know that many drivers in cars with modern capabilities, can do so pretty safely.

However, what it also tells us is that our legal system is an absolute joke. The law SHOULD be worthy of respect, and yet it clearly isn't. It's part of what makes Britain seen around the world as a soft touch, which ought to seriously embarrass those in power, and yet somehow it doesn't seem to.

Laws on traffic speeds should be there for the purpose of road safety, they should specifically NOT be there simply for the purpose of generating revenue (such as when speed limits are enforced for minor infringements in comparatively safe circumstances) and yet this is often the situation we're in.

I lamented this point right at the start of this thread. What we need is a complete redesign of most of our traffic laws, and the manner in which they're enforced. Including raising motorway speed limits to 80mph for competent drivers.

At 360 posts into this thread, no-one has yet remotely convinced me of any reason why a wholesale review of traffic laws and enforcement thereof, shouldn't happen.

So why do we keep putting up with successive Governments that have little or no interest in doing so?

You’re confusing the law with the variables that the law uses to define what speeds are allowed. In doing so, you fall into two traps.

The first is that of the speed lobby, which puts so much emphasis on compliance with speed limits that it undermines the awareness of drivers about the other features of safe driving, like observation and road appropriate speed.

The second is that of enforcement. On a regular drive I do, there is a commonly used police camera van observation point. When a van is there, the effect can be felt a mile or so back, as cars slack off. Unfortunately (see previous para) they do so to well under the speed limit, and this on a straight multi lane road.

More patrolling cars, observing driving standards, and intervening for bad driving, are necessary before changes in law are considered. That’s not just about speed, but also line discipline (driving yesterday, I saw some spectacular examples of poor lane discipline), tailgating, etc - as well as excessively high or low speed.

 

[AlterEgo]

Worth highlighting again that we have, in a global context, extremely safe roads and a very high standard of driving. Quite why the UK needs a wholesale review of its driving laws remains beyond me.

 

[Harpo]

Quite why the UK needs a wholesale review of its driving laws remains beyond me.

I’d suggest our laws are fine. Driving standards however are in decline and this is where an agenda for change is sorely needed.

The 1,500-ish fatalities a year on our roads show there is much to do.

 

[AlterEgo]

I’d suggest our laws are fine. Driving standards however are in decline and this is where an agenda for change is sorely needed.

The 1,500-ish fatalities a year on our roads show there is much to do.

This is one of the lowest per capita rates in the world, and in my view is notable given the nature of our road network. A lot of those deaths cannot be legislated or engineered away.

 

[spyinthesky]

There are no vote winners in implementing new or amended driving laws.
Restricting engines would be the only way to reduce high speeds and fitting black boxes for all, another. Neither of which will set the electorate alight.

 

[35B]

There are no vote winners in implementing new or amended driving laws.
Restricting engines would be the only way to reduce high speeds and fitting black boxes for all, another. Neither of which will set the electorate alight.

On the contrary, both of which would set large parts of the electorate alight. And not in a good way

 

[bramling]

Worth highlighting again that we have, in a global context, extremely safe roads and a very high standard of driving. Quite why the UK needs a wholesale review of its driving laws remains beyond me.

What happens elsewhere isn’t really relevant IMO. Notwithstanding this, standards of driving here are poor and declining, especially in the London area, and this needs to improve.

It never used to be the case that a typical journey requires regularly having to take avoiding action to mitigate against errors from others.

 

[AlterEgo]

There are a number of speed limits which are too high. Three Bridges Road in Long Buckby was one; it was 60 but has three narrow bridges. It was recently dropped to 50 which feels much more appropriate given the sighting lines on two of the bridges. But these decisions should be made at the local level. 60 on the A5 here is fine as a NSL road. Any proposal to drop NSL to 50 as a national policy has the consequence of it encouraging more reckless overtaking, as well as making the route less GPS-desirable as an alternative to the M1 for shorter journeys.

What happens elsewhere isn’t really relevant IMO. Notwithstanding this, standards of driving here are poor and declining, especially in the London area, and this needs to improve.

It never used to be the case that a typical journey requires regularly having to take avoiding action to mitigate against errors from others.

Do those driver errors result in negative consequences like more crashes and fatalities? I've driven in London as I lived there for several years and the behaviour you describe I definitely recognise - but it is mostly aggressive and selfish driving at lower speeds with fewer consequences.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I spoke to a police officer about non-enforcement of the 20-mph speed limit on a local road that goes past a primary school. Most motorists there can be seen doing around 30-mph. The officer patiently explained that if everyone exceeding 20-mph in one day were taken to court it would clog-up the legal system for months. They took the pragmatic view that anything less than 30-mph could be overlooked. I gained the impression that in practice 20-mph is really 30-mph!

 

[spyinthesky]

I spoke to a police officer about non-enforcement of the 20-mph speed limit on a local road that goes past a primary school. Most motorists there can be seen doing around 30-mph. The officer patiently explained that if everyone exceeding 20-mph in one day were taken to court it would clog-up the legal system for months. They took the pragmatic view that anything less than 30-mph could be overlooked. I gained the impression that in practice 20-mph is really 30-mph!

I find a lot of these areas before school starts and after school finishes you can be lucky if you can do more than 10.
During school hours I can’t see a willingness to enforce any speed.

 

[JamesT]

Driving kids to school does seem to disconnect the brains of many parents. https://maps.app.goo.gl/7DGbjj877eUedbnr8 is a school I go past on my way to work. Pretty much every time I will see someone stopping on the School Keep Clear to let their offspring out.

 

[spyinthesky]

Driving kids to school does seem to disconnect the brains of many parents. https://maps.app.goo.gl/7DGbjj877eUedbnr8 is a school I go past on my way to work. Pretty much every time I will see someone stopping on the School Keep Clear to let their offspring out.

I live opposite a Primary school on a residents only road which permits access to the school as part of a one way system that was installed some years ago.
Things improved as the school were very proactive in getting a drop off car-park and two zebra crossings.
After 2 years now, barely a handful use the car park and they are back to parking directly outside the school then do a u-turn on a one way street as this is the shortest way out.
The authorities have done and spent lots to make it safer, which they were crying out for and now it is less safe than ever.

 

[styles]

I live opposite a Primary school on a residents only road which permits access to the school as part of a one way system that was installed some years ago.
Things improved as the school were very proactive in getting a drop off car-park and two zebra crossings.
After 2 years now, barely a handful use the car park and they are back to parking directly outside the school then do a u-turn on a one way street as this is the shortest way out.
The authorities have done and spent lots to make it safer, which they were crying out for and now it is less safe than ever.

So many of our schools were simply not designed for the number of people driving to do the school drop off and pick up.

I appreciate that some of this is down to both parents now working rather than having one stay at home, but a lot of it is also just unnecessary. The village I lived in just before this one, 99.9% of the properties were withion a 20 minute walk of the school, and I'd guess around half were within a 10 minute walk. But I knew neighbours who would drive their child to school, and it wasn't even because they were heading to work, because they would get into the car in their pyjamas, do the drop off, and be home shortly after still in their PJs.

What struck me was that, owing to the layout of the housing estate, and owing to the number of other people driving to the school, it was actually slower to drive than it was to walk!

My nephew would sometimes come to ours after school and his mum was shocked at the idea that I put forwards which was that he makes his own way home from school to our house. School finishes in the daylight, it's an incredibly safe neighbourhood, it's footpaths all the way, and it's quicker than driving. Why wouldn't he walk was my question?

 

[Krokodil]

So many of our schools were simply not designed for the number of people driving to do the school drop off and pick up.

Even in parts of the world where they are, it's not exactly efficient - cars don't do anything efficiently. Here's footage of the queues outside a school in the US:

We need to restrict car usage on streets outside of schools. Not practical to close off the streets everywhere (many older primaries are on through roads) but at least severely restrict parking and enforce it.

 

[35B]

Even in parts of the world where they are, it's not exactly efficient - cars don't do anything efficiently. Here's footage of the queues outside a school in the US:

We need to restrict car usage on streets outside of schools. Not practical to close off the streets everywhere (many older primaries are on through roads) but at least severely restrict parking and enforce it.

Hmm, and enforce it. There are probably more schools in Grantham that on duty police officers at any given time. Who is going to do that enforcement, and how do you make it stick?

 

[jfollows]

I spoke to a police officer about non-enforcement of the 20-mph speed limit on a local road that goes past a primary school. Most motorists there can be seen doing around 30-mph. The officer patiently explained that if everyone exceeding 20-mph in one day were taken to court it would clog-up the legal system for months. They took the pragmatic view that anything less than 30-mph could be overlooked. I gained the impression that in practice 20-mph is really 30-mph!

I believe you’re correct, with occasional exceptions such as Tower Bridge which is enforced by cameras.
No police to be seen out and about, 20mph limits are not enforced but they make many drivers who would have been driving at 40mph go slower than that.
I don’t believe the court thing, they are more than happy to issue speeding tickets in their thousands from speed cameras, 20mph no different in this regard.
They’re just a crude way of making drivers go slower than they otherwise would.

 

[styles]

I believe you’re correct, with occasional exceptions such as Tower Bridge which is enforced by cameras.
No police to be seen out and about, 20mph limits are not enforced but they make many drivers who would have been driving at 40mph go slower than that.
I don’t believe the court thing, they are more than happy to issue speeding tickets in their thousands from speed cameras, 20mph no different in this regard.
They’re just a crude way of making drivers go slower than they otherwise would.

Well, somewhat crude.

According to the research, the most efficient enforcement measure is 'vertical deflection' i.e. speed bumps, humps, rumble strips. The second most efficient enforcement measure is speed cameras.

The problem is you can't win. If you put speed bumps in, people whinge about their suspension. If you put speed cameras in, people whinge about them being 'cash cows' (even though the police and the local authority don't receive the income from the fines). The alternative is just leave the road as it is, which does result in a small reduction in speed, but not a desirable one.

In the lovely country of Wales, we have 20mph limits everywhere. My observation is that people do on average drive slower, even if they're still speeding. I never intentionally speed in residential areas and I do sometimes gain a tailgater when I'm doing 20mph, but I find that on the whole, most drivers are understanding of it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the lovely country of Wales, we have 20mph limits everywhere. My observation is that people do on average drive slower, even if they're still speeding. I never intentionally speed in residential areas and I do sometimes gain a tailgater when I'm doing 20mph, but I find that on the whole, most drivers are understanding of it.

I'm told there is a north south split on the 20s. I find they are largely complied with in north Wales but I'm told by someone who lives in Cardiff that it's largely ignored there.

 

[35B]

Well, somewhat crude.

According to the research, the most efficient enforcement measure is 'vertical deflection' i.e. speed bumps, humps, rumble strips. The second most efficient enforcement measure is speed cameras.

The problem is you can't win. If you put speed bumps in, people whinge about their suspension. If you put speed cameras in, people whinge about them being 'cash cows' (even though the police and the local authority don't receive the income from the fines). The alternative is just leave the road as it is, which does result in a small reduction in speed, but not a desirable one.

In the lovely country of Wales, we have 20mph limits everywhere. My observation is that people do on average drive slower, even if they're still speeding. I never intentionally speed in residential areas and I do sometimes gain a tailgater when I'm doing 20mph, but I find that on the whole, most drivers are understanding of it.

And those answers both have their place, and miss the point. Speed bumps do cause issues, not just for car owners' suspensions, but also for emergency services. Cameras only pick up one behaviour, and cause side effects - the classic being everyone slowing to an indicated 60mph on a 70mph dual carriageway

In both cases, the assumption that you can fully automate is deeply flawed. It doesn't engage with people at the time they can be influenced, and it only captures a subset of the problematic behaviours.

 

[styles]

I'm told there is a north south split on the 20s. I find they are largely complied with in north Wales but I'm told by someone who lives in Cardiff that it's largely ignored there.

Quite possibly, I avoid south Wales when I can

Both Wrexham and Swansea councils reverted a significant number of roads to 30mph mind.

It was a bit of a strange one because the local authorities are the highways authority for most roads, and most miles of roads, and each LA took wildly different approaches. Monmouthshire for example I don't think have reverted a single road from 20mph to 30mph but Wrexham reverted something like 50 roads back to 30mph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite possibly, I avoid south Wales when I can

Both Wrexham and Swansea councils reverted a significant number of roads to 30mph mind.

It was a bit of a strange one because the local authorities are the highways authority for most roads, and most miles of roads, and each LA took wildly different approaches. Monmouthshire for example I don't think have reverted a single road from 20mph to 30mph but Wrexham reverted something like 50 roads back to 30mph.

There were some silly ones, e.g. the road from the A55 into Llandudno Junction which was too slow at 30 and got dropped to 20 by default. I think they've actually stuck it up to 40 now which is more fitting. I think it was always expected there would be examples like that.

 

[styles]

There were some silly ones, e.g. the road from the A55 into Llandudno Junction which was too slow at 30 and got dropped to 20 by default. I think they've actually stuck it up to 40 now which is more fitting. I think it was always expected there would be examples like that.

The A55 as a whole is just a bit of an, ahem, poo show.

Parts of it are 'special roads' (which afford motorway-like regulations). Parts of it are down to 50mph for local air pollution despite not really being close to residential properties. Then there's parts of it which pedestrians are permitted to cross owing to historical rights of way and honestly I'd be terrified to cross at those points!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The A55 as a whole is just a bit of an, ahem, poo show.

Parts of it are 'special roads' (which afford motorway-like regulations).

Supposedly this had to do with the basis under which the land those sections are on was transferred from the railway to road use (the railway was moved). I don't quite know what the mechanism was precisely, though.

 

[edwin_m]

My nephew would sometimes come to ours after school and his mum was shocked at the idea that I put forwards which was that he makes his own way home from school to our house. School finishes in the daylight, it's an incredibly safe neighbourhood, it's footpaths all the way, and it's quicker than driving. Why wouldn't he walk was my question?

The danger is all those other parents driving around outside the school.

Hmm, and enforce it. There are probably more schools in Grantham that on duty police officers at any given time. Who is going to do that enforcement, and how do you make it stick?

Maybe the school could start naming and shaming persistent offenders?

 

[styles]

The danger is all those other parents driving around outside the school.

I actually don't think the drivers pose a significant danger in this specific case. The roads are really not conducive to picking up any sort of speed. It's just antisocial parking and idling of ICEs really.

 

[35B]

Maybe the school could start naming and shaming persistent offenders?

The same school that also has to have a good relationship with those parents so that they work together. A bit of a challenge, that...

 

[Tetchytyke]

My observation is that people do on average drive slower, even if they're still speeding.

No, you're right, there was a study from TomTom which showed that:

20mph: Average speed in Wales drops 2.4mph under new law

Average speeds in Wales are down 2.4mph since the new speed limit came into force, report says.

www.bbc.co.uk

Compliance with the new default 20mph speed limits on roads in Wales is "generally good".

That's according to data analysis of speeds at thousands of road points using Tom Tom data.

It found average speeds were down 2.4mph (3.9km/h) compared to speeds before the change last September.

But it found just over half of analysed journeys were above the 20mph (32km/h) limit. And 17.9% were above 26mph (42km/h) - the enforcement threshold.

People who would have driven at 30mph in a 30mph limit may now be driving at 24mph or 25mph. Sure, they're speeding, but they're still driving more slowly than they would have done before.

Speed bumps do cause issues, not just for car owners' suspensions, but also for emergency services.

My house is in a 20mph area roughly halfway between two speed humps. People just accelerate between the speed humps and they're probably not going any slower past my house than if the humps weren't there.

 

[35B]

My house is in a 20mph area roughly halfway between two speed humps. People just accelerate between the speed humps and they're probably not going any slower past my house than if the humps weren't there.

That too.