Bad traffic enforcement

[Shrop]

It’s pretty rare for vehicles to be driven straight through red lights, even in London (cycles excepted). What does happen is people chancing it when lights turn red, which seems to be slightly more common in London and the south-east than elsewhere IME.

In fairness you've improved on my comment.

Yes, it's very rare that drivers run red lights in the middle of a red phase.

However, in most towns it's extremely likely that one or two drivers will follow others through an amber light after a green phase, and it's very common too, that one or two will also follow after the lights have turned red.

 

[Llanigraham]

I was somewhat surprised to see that anyone should say they haven't seen many instances of it, all that tells me is that they haven't looked very hard.

I drive atleast 1200 miles a month, much of that through and around Shropshire and I rarely see drivers jumping red lights, even on one of the worst roundabouts on the Shrewsbury by-pass.
Probably the worst ones I have seen have been in Swansea and that was by "youths" on illegal electric bikes near Morriston Hospital.

 

[Llanigraham]

In fairness you've improved on my comment.

Yes, it's very rare that drivers run red lights in the middle of a red phase.

However, in most towns it's extremely likely that one or two drivers will follow others through an amber light after a green phase, and it's very common too, that one or two will also follow after the lights have turned red.

See my reply above!

 

[GusB]

Duals are more dangerous than motorways and do justify a lower limit to try to bring that safety into line.

This is silly. Apart from the fact that motorways are, by definition, dual-carriageways, not all roads are made equal and imposing blanket restrictions is a bit daft.

You clearly don't live in a rural area. Reducing the speed limits in this way would make little difference to the average resident of Milton Keynes, but it would make areas like Devon and Cornwall significantly more remote. 70mph is entirely reasonable on a typical rural trunk road, and many large single carriageways work fine at 60.

Some roads without white lines are still OK at 50, some need you to drop to 10mph. Putting in place a blanket 40mph would not help. Speed limits are not useful on single track roads, the current NSL but drive to the conditions is the right approach but needs a bit more education. It also isn't really practical to install cameras anyway, so changing limits probably wouldn't change speeds.

It's quite obvious that @Bletchleyite doesn't live in a rural area. Where I live, there are many roads without a centre line that are perfectly fine to drive at 60mph; not every single-track road is a narrow country lane with hedges either side.

I drive according to the conditions on the day and I don't need someone from Milton Keynes telling me whether or not I'm doing it wrong.

I am absolutely not against lower limits where appropriate - it is the use of blanket limits without analysis that I take issue with. The old approach of using traffic surveys and weighting the results against average speed has a lot to say for it, because it reflects how people actually use the road.

This may be the first time we've agreed on anything, but I also don't like the idea of blanket limits.

 

[Harpo]

I frequently drive 13 rural miles from town to city on an A road with 15 speed limit changes (see below). My only driving offence in 23 years was missing one of those changes before I learnt them. A camera van placed just after a 60 into 50 transition, suggested that others were missing it too.

Applying local speed restrictions sounds sensible but I seriously doubt that the resultant driver workload is considered (add pothole avoidance!) and suggest that ‘enforcement’ of speeding seems to be preferred to considering causes.

30 40 60N 50 60N 40 30 40 60N 40 60N 50 40 50 30N 30(dual carriageway)
N - National speed limit

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is silly. Apart from the fact that motorways are, by definition, dual-carriageways, not all roads are made equal and imposing blanket restrictions is a bit daft.


It's quite obvious that @Bletchleyite doesn't live in a rural area. Where I live, there are many roads without a centre line that are perfectly fine to drive at 60mph; not every single-track road is a narrow country lane with hedges either side.

I drive according to the conditions on the day and I don't need someone from Milton Keynes telling me whether or not I'm doing it wrong.


This may be the first time we've agreed on anything, but I also don't like the idea of blanket limits.

Do you oppose National Speed Limit generally then?

 

[BayPaul]

Do you oppose National Speed Limit generally then?

For me (as one of the people GusB was agreeing with) I think NSL works well. 60mph is about right for cars on larger single carriageways, and speed limits on winding rural roads make little sense as the safe speed is constantly changing, so a symbol rather than a number (which would be seen as a target) makes sense.

 

[Krokodil]

This is silly. Apart from the fact that motorways are, by definition, dual-carriageways, not all roads are made equal and imposing blanket restrictions is a bit daft.

Motorways have hard shoulders. Dual carriageways do not.

 

[JamesT]

Motorways have hard shoulders. Dual carriageways do not.

There are dual carriageway A roads with hard shoulders and motorways without them. There are even some oddities of motorways that are only single carriageway.

A motorway in the UK is a ‘special road’ legally, the major difference with an ordinary road is a restriction on the classes of vehicle that can use it. Although most motorways are of a particular standard of construction, there’s no requirement that it has to be or that a road of that standard is a motorway.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This is silly. Apart from the fact that motorways are, by definition, dual-carriageways

There's a bit of Orrell Interchange near Wigan where there's a stretch of single carriageway under Motorway regs... It's numbered as part of the M58.

 

[DM352]

One of my pet peeves visiting the UK is often the A64 at Malton. Well built 70mph road and there is often a speed camera van there in the layby where other parts of the road which have not been improved should be the focus.

Another is the roads (except Cannock) that have had speed limits reduced with enforecemnt paralleling the M6 Toll which is not cheap especially in Canadin dollar conversion!

I have also noticed some capacity reductions like the A449 near Worcester where it was dual carriageway but one is mostly hatched over with a slower speed limit enforced by average speed cameras.

 

[The exile]

I have also noticed some capacity reductions like the A449 near Worcester where it was dual carriageway but one is mostly hatched over with a slower speed limit enforced by average speed cameras.

You can’t convert a road from dual carriageway by hatching - merely reduce it from a (example) two lane dual carriageway to a single-lane dual carriageway.

 

[Oxfordblues]

When I drive I scrupulous obey all speed limits, exactly as train drivers routinely do. This means occasionally creating a long tailback of frustrated drivers who think the limits are "advisory" or that they are somehow above the law. That is their problem! Four young men drowned recently at Garreg (Gwynedd) where the speed limit is 20mph but their car hurtled through the village, failed to take a bend and end-up upside-down in a river.

 

[172007]

Motorways have hard shoulders. Dual carriageways do not.

Thats debatable these days. Actually tbinking about it, the A38(M) in Birmingham has never had a hard shoulder and is classified as a Motorway and has never had a central reservation neither is is not evem a dual carriage way.

My experience of motorway driving is that far more people these days actually stick to 70mph than 20 years ago. Cars may be doing 73/74mph on your speedo but the GPS regardless of how many phones there are in the car all say 70mph.

Actually its quote stark how many vehicles donnt go more than 80 compared with years ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thats debatable these days. Actually tbinking about it, the A38(M) in Birmingham has never had a hard shoulder and is classified as a Motorway and has never had a central reservation

It sort of does, it just moves. There's a lane's gap left between the two directions that has a "red X" both ways (unless that has changed).

It appears from a quick look that the lane that is usually this is red tarmac.

 

[AlterEgo]

When I drive I scrupulous obey all speed limits, exactly as train drivers routinely do. This means occasionally creating a long tailback of frustrated drivers who think the limits are "advisory" or that they are somehow above the law. That is their problem! Four young men drowned recently at Garreg (Gwynedd) where the speed limit is 20mph but their car hurtled through the village, failed to take a bend and end-up upside-down in a river.

That accident occurred on a 60mph NSL part of the road, not in a village where it was 20mph. To be particularly on topic, there were notable failings in terms of the road design and signage the coroner highlighted and the council has addressed these.

There is no evidence those guys exceeded the speed limit.

 

[35B]

That accident occurred on a 60mph NSL part of the road, not in a village where it was 20mph. To be particularly on topic, there were notable failings in terms of the road design and signage the coroner highlighted and the council has addressed these.

There is no evidence those guys exceeded the speed limit.

Re-reading the reports, I'm also reminded how safe driving is about much more than complying with the stated speed limit. Questions of experience, ability to read a road, and car maintenance were all part of the picture here, and are lost sight of if the tragedy is reduced to a discussion of speed

 

[AlterEgo]

Re-reading the reports, I'm also reminded how safe driving is about much more than complying with the stated speed limit. Questions of experience, ability to read a road, and car maintenance were all part of the picture here, and are lost sight of if the tragedy is reduced to a discussion of speed

Of course. This is a bend which was not well signed and it would have jumpscared an inexperienced and unjustifiably confident driver. Speed itself is not the issue, it's the management of speed in an envelope and seeing a corner before it is upon you. A lot of young drivers don't look at the middle distance when driving.

 

[35B]

Of course. This is a bend which was not well signed and it would have jumpscared an inexperienced and unjustifiably confident driver. Speed itself is not the issue, it's the management of speed in an envelope and seeing a corner before it is upon you. A lot of young drivers don't look at the middle distance when driving.

And that's where I struggle with the approach demonstrated in the post from @Oxfordblues.

 

[The exile]

And that's where I struggle with the approach demonstrated in the post from @Oxfordblues.

Although “scrupulously obeying” and “driving to” are not synonymous. The former doesn’t exclude driving well below the limit; the latter does.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although “scrupulously obeying” and “driving to” are not synonymous. The former doesn’t exclude driving well below the limit; the latter does.

One should drive within the law and considerately. Within the law means not speeding (and tough luck for anyone disliking that; there's too much enforcement these days to take the risk - if you don't like me doing the limit then simply overtake) and so on, considerately would mean not driving substantially below the limit for no good reason, and if for any reason you are doing (e.g. car in limp home mode) ensure to pull over periodically when safe to let any queue clear. Equally it means not tailgating or similar any other road user who is making an error.

A particularly important thing to do is to accelerate to the prevailing speed of lane 1 of a motorway or dual carriageway when joining it, assuming the sliplane is long enough to do this. If you fail to do so you are putting yourself, the people in lane 1 and the people behind you at significant risk. If not confident to do this then some motorway lessons with an instructor would be in order.

 

[edwin_m]

One should drive within the law and considerately. Within the law means not speeding (and tough luck for anyone disliking that; there's too much enforcement these days to take the risk - if you don't like me doing the limit then simply overtake) and so on, considerately would mean not driving substantially below the limit for no good reason, and if for any reason you are doing (e.g. car in limp home mode) ensure to pull over periodically when safe to let any queue clear. Equally it means not tailgating or similar any other road user who is making an error.

A particularly important thing to do is to accelerate to the prevailing speed of lane 1 of a motorway or dual carriageway when joining it, assuming the sliplane is long enough to do this. If you fail to do so you are putting yourself, the people in lane 1 and the people behind you at significant risk. If not confident to do this then some motorway lessons with an instructor would be in order.

Someone should tell this to a driver I had to follow most of the way from Loughborough to Nottingham last year, who had a tyre gradually disintegrating and throwing lumps of rubber about. They were going a bit slower than permitted (35-40mph) but faster than they should have (0mph!).

 

[35B]

One should drive within the law and considerately. Within the law means not speeding (and tough luck for anyone disliking that; there's too much enforcement these days to take the risk - if you don't like me doing the limit then simply overtake) and so on, considerately would mean not driving substantially below the limit for no good reason, and if for any reason you are doing (e.g. car in limp home mode) ensure to pull over periodically when safe to let any queue clear. Equally it means not tailgating or similar any other road user who is making an error.

I strongly agree with this.

However, it is also necessary to realise that the speed indicated in a car is often not the actual road speed, as the speedometer will read a higher speed (and is allowed a tolerance of up to 10% over the true speed). Where I see a sign indicating my speed in a 30 zone, my indicated 30mph is typically at 28-29mph on the sign; if I set the satnav up for an ETA at destination, I find driving at an indicated 70 causes me to lose time against the satnav on a road that is clear and signed for 70. By trial and error, I reckon my speedo reads about 8% faster than my true speed.

That brings the second part into play. If I'm driving at the indicated speed, or slower, and someone is blocked behind me, I will tend to try to let them through where I can reasonably do so rather than have them on my tail and possibly try to force an overtake. It's better for me, better for the driver behind, and probably also better for those around. I also like to think that I know where my mirrors are, and how to use them... When I've caught slow drivers (a middle lane sitter on the A1 this morning, and let's not talk about the tourists on Scottish single track roads in June!), I'm always interested in how many show no awareness of my presence and continue to drive obstructively.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, it is also necessary to realise that the speed indicated in a car is often not the actual road speed, as the speedometer will read a higher speed (and is allowed a tolerance of up to 10% over the true speed). Where I see a sign indicating my speed in a 30 zone, my indicated 30mph is typically at 28-29mph on the sign; if I set the satnav up for an ETA at destination, I find driving at an indicated 70 causes me to lose time against the satnav on a road that is clear and signed for 70. By trial and error, I reckon my speedo reads about 8% faster than my true speed.

That's quite extreme but most speedos indeed over-read because to under-read even by a tiny amount is a Construction and Use offence. With my car an indicated 73 is 70 by GPS so I tend to do this on the motorway, and will for the same reason tend to set my limiter to 21, 31, 41, 52, 62 and 73 for the best approximation.

That of course isn't speeding as the actual speed of the car is under the limit.

 

[35B]

That's quite extreme but most speedos indeed over-read because to under-read even by a tiny amount is a Construction and Use offence. With my car an indicated 73 is 70 by GPS so I tend to do this on the motorway, and will for the same reason tend to set my limiter to 21, 31, 41, 52, 62 and 73 for the best approximation.

That of course isn't speeding as the actual speed of the car is under the limit.

Agreed. But you are aware of this - I find that many "I only drive at the limit" drivers are not, and refuse to consider the possibility

 

[styles]

That's quite extreme but most speedos indeed over-read because to under-read even by a tiny amount is a Construction and Use offence.

And they can over-read by a huge 10%+6.25mph! No modern car does, obviously. This only applies between true speeds of 25mph-70mph.

6.25mph seems oddly specific but it came from EU regs which specified it as 10%+10kmph.

(minor aside but it's not Construction & Use but The Motor Vehicles (Approval) (Amendment) Regulations 2004)

 

[Bikeman78]

One should drive within the law and considerately. Within the law means not speeding (and tough luck for anyone disliking that; there's too much enforcement these days to take the risk - if you don't like me doing the limit then simply overtake) and so on, considerately would mean not driving substantially below the limit for no good reason, and if for any reason you are doing (e.g. car in limp home mode) ensure to pull over periodically when safe to let any queue clear. Equally it means not tailgating or similar any other road user who is making an error.

Having recently driven the length of the A470, I am astonished how many people are content to tootle along at 40 mph. There are bendy sections, but a lot of it is perfectly good for 60 mph. I'm not so bothered about battered old camper vans that quite likely won't go much over 40 if there is any sort of gradient. However, some of the cars were 25 plates. Indeed, they stuck so rigidly to 40, regardless of gradient or road conditions, that I'm convinced that they had cruise control set to that speed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. But you are aware of this - I find that many "I only drive at the limit" drivers are not, and refuse to consider the possibility

Most people probably aren't aware. I find I'm usually the fastest vehicle on a smart motorway when set to actual 70 (73 indicated), it's quite a comfortable speed to drive.

A special place in Hades goes to people who speed up when you try to overtake and slow down again when you pull back in and give up though!

 

[bramling]

Most people probably aren't aware. I find I'm usually the fastest vehicle on a smart motorway when set to actual 70 (73 indicated), it's quite a comfortable speed to drive.

A special place in Hades goes to people who speed up when you try to overtake and slow down again when you pull back in and give up though!

I tend to set to 75 on smart motorways (my speedo I believe is fairly accurate). Never understand why some people speed up when you pass them, seems to happen a lot. And of course in the London area you can be guaranteed there will be the usual scourge of people hogging lanes further right then appropriate.

 

[edwin_m]

Never understand why some people speed up when you pass them, seems to happen a lot.

I guess people without cruise controls see others passing them and notice they've let their speed drop off a bit.