Bad information by Virgin ticket office.

[taxidave]

Three of my friends were returning from Crewe last Saturday, on my advice they had split their tickets at Wolverhampton, hence advance XC Cheltenham to Wolverhampton and return, then groupsave3 Wolverhampton to Crewe LM only.
This was ok until they arrived back at Wolverhampton on the return journey where, having watched Cheltenham lose 8-1, they decided they needed a few drinks and so asked at the ticket office if their tickets were valid on a later train than that shown on their tickets and were told by the clerk in the office that this would be ok.
They took a later XC train and were charged an excess.
Have they any comeback on the Virgin ticket office as they only changed their travel arrangements on their advice.

 

[yorkie]

So, they got tickets that said Validity: Bookedtrainonly and asked the ticket office staff if they could travel on a later train and they said yes? If it was me asking that I'd certainly be asking for some sort of endorsement to be written on the tickets! Without such an endorsement, it's their word against the ticket office.

Also if they were charged an excess, they were lucky. The rules are officially that a brand new ticket must be charged with no allowance for the original price paid. That is very harsh so some TMs take a more lenient view.

I would consider complaining to Virgin about poor advice but XC won't give you your money back I'd have thought (unless Virgin admit liability - which is unlikely)

 

[First class]

There are no such tickets available between Wolves and Crewe route LM Only. (Just Any Permitted, VT Only, XC Only etc).

I would imagine that as Groupsave isn't valid on XC, they were charged an excess between the discounted fare and the full fare.


I don't believe the tickets print BOOKEDTRAINONLY and would simply say ANY PERMITTED as it would be a "flexible ticket" essentially. It was the discount that made it arguably invalid on XC.

That debate has been covered in much detail previously.

The ticket clerk has given correct advice that they are valid on a LATER train, but not specified that it must not be XC. In my opinion, that is not the job of this particular clerk, the one who initially sold the tickets should have advised that they were not valid on XC, and hence the passengers should have been aware they were valid on a LATER London Midland service.

 

[taxidave]

There are no such tickets available between Wolves and Crewe route LM Only. (Just Any Permitted, VT Only, XC Only etc).

I would imagine that as Groupsave isn't valid on XC, they were charged an excess between the discounted fare and the full fare.


I don't believe the tickets print BOOKEDTRAINONLY and would simply say ANY PERMITTED as it would be a "flexible ticket" essentially. It was the discount that made it arguably invalid on XC.

That debate has been covered in much detail previously.

The ticket clerk has given correct advice that they are valid on a LATER train, but not specified that it must not be XC. In my opinion, that is not the job of this particular clerk, the one who initially sold the tickets should have advised that they were not valid on XC, and hence the passengers should have been aware they were valid on a LATER London Midland service.

I don't think you understand what I wrote. The Wolverhampton to Crewe and return section of the journey was done successfully using LM groupsave 3 tickets.
It was the XC Wolverhampton to Cheltenham journey with advance tickets that was the problem, when they were incorrectly advised that they could take a later train than the booked train stated on their tickets.

 

[junglejames]

To be honest i dont think they have a leg to stand on. The tickets would quite clearly have stated 'booked train only'. Why do you need to ask anything?

Also, id be very surprised if the person at Wolves knew exactly what tickets they had. The chances of the ticket office at Wolves saying they could catch a later train with advance tickets is extremely slim i would have thought.
Do yyou know for sure if your friends showed the ticket clerk the ticket? Perhaps the ticket clerk just assumed it was a normal off peak return without seeing the tickets.

 

[Mojo]

To be honest i dont think they have a leg to stand on. The tickets would quite clearly have stated 'booked train only'. Why do you need to ask anything?

I believe that is only stated on Advance tickets. These were Any Permitted tickets with no time restriction (as it was a Saturday).

We have done to death before whether GroupSave should be valid on XC Trains or not before.

 

[First class]

To be honest i dont think they have a leg to stand on. The tickets would quite clearly have stated 'booked train only'. Why do you need to ask anything?

Also, id be very surprised if the person at Wolves knew exactly what tickets they had. The chances of the ticket office at Wolves saying they could catch a later train with advance tickets is extremely slim i would have thought.
Do yyou know for sure if your friends showed the ticket clerk the ticket? Perhaps the ticket clerk just assumed it was a normal off peak return without seeing the tickets.

If a member of staff has indeed stated it would be acceptable to travel on a later service, and looked at the tickets properly then I would agree that you would have a case for a complaint.

However, as people on this forum will point out:

1) The ticket does state "bookedtrainonly" and would have had a mandatory reservation coupon.
2) Some customers do use the excuse of "he told me it would be okay" when actually they haven't spoken to anyone.

If a member of staff has genuinely given assurances it was valid then I would take that to mean it was valid, if I didn't know anything about railway ticketing matters, so if it is true, they got bad advice.

I don't think any refunds will be given, but I would imagine VT to issue a sort of apology, but reminding about Advance conditions...

It's all a he said, she said type situation which will never be proved for either party...

 

[Greenback]

It's not about Groupsave! It's about an Advance Wolves to Cheltenham which the ticket office is alleged to have said is OK to be used on a later train than shown on the ticket!

 

[junglejames]

I believe that is only stated on Advance tickets. These were Any Permitted tickets with no time restriction (as it was a Saturday).

We have done to death before whether GroupSave should be valid on XC Trains or not before.

These were advance tickets.

 

[Greenback]

If a member of staff has indeed stated it would be acceptable to travel on a later service, and looked at the tickets properly then I would agree that you would have a case for a complaint.

However, as people on this forum will point out:

1) The ticket does state "bookedtrainonly" and would have had a mandatory reservation coupon.
2) Some customers do use the excuse of "he told me it would be okay" when actually they haven't spoken to anyone.

If a member of staff has genuinely given assurances it was valid then I would take that to mean it was valid, if I didn't know anything about railway ticketing matters, so if it is true, they got bad advice.

I don't think any refunds will be given, but I would imagine VT to issue a sort of apology, but reminding about Advance conditions...

It's all a he said, she said type situation which will never be proved for either party...

I find it diffficult to believe that a member of booking office staff would actually advise that an Advance ticket was valid for a later service. But who knows what was asked and what was shown?

 

[yorkie]

A combination of tickets was held, according to the OP.
The problem was with the Advance tickets.
The information about the GroupSave tickets is not really relevant and didn't/doesn't need to be discussed, as far as I can determine.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I find it diffficult to believe that a member of booking office staff would actually advise that an Advance ticket was valid for a later service. But who knows what was asked and what was shown?

I agree, and if they did say that I'd want it in writing. I certainly would not expect a XC guard to believe "but the ticket office staff told me I could"

 

[First class]

I find it diffficult to believe that a member of booking office staff would actually advise that an Advance ticket was valid for a later service. But who knows what was asked and what was shown?

So do I personally, but we can only go of what the OP claims!

I would have asked for an UPFN if staff had genuinely told me they were valid!

 

[taxidave]

I am led to believe that the ticket was a e-ticket, what ever that means, is it downloaded to your phone ??

 

[yorkie]

I think they can be, or you can print them.

Actually, looking at my e-ticket now, it doesn't say "Validity: Bookedtrainonly" and there is nothing to say it's only valid on the specified train. The only hint is that the ticket type is "Advance" and I know what that means, but perhaps they didn't...

 

[First class]

This specimen e-ticket shows a section called 'Specific Booking Conditions". Even though this is a VT one, the XC ones are supposed to be the same...

 

[dzug2]

Maybe what they showed were the Wolves-Brum tickets? Correct answer then received.

 

[taxidave]

Maybe what they showed were the Wolves-Brum tickets? Correct answer then received.

At no point in my original post did I mention having Wolverhampton to Birmingham tickets.
I will reiterate, the issue concerns the Wolverhampton to Cheltenham return portion of an advance ticket which they were advised could be used on a later train by Virgin staff at Wolverhampton.

 

[Greenback]

I think they can be, or you can print them.

Actually, looking at my e-ticket now, it doesn't say "Validity: Bookedtrainonly" and there is nothing to say it's only valid on the specified train. The only hint is that the ticket type is "Advance" and I know what that means, but perhaps they didn't...

Even so, it's hard to believe a competent member of staff wouldn't see the word Advance if the e-ticket was presented to them.

 

[dzug2]

At no point in my original post did I mention having Wolverhampton to Birmingham tickets.
I will reiterate, the issue concerns the Wolverhampton to Cheltenham return portion of an advance ticket which they were advised could be used on a later train by Virgin staff at Wolverhampton.

Sorry - misread what you said about split tickets.

 

[bnm]

At no point in my original post did I mention having Wolverhampton to Birmingham tickets.
I will reiterate, the issue concerns the Wolverhampton to Cheltenham return portion of an advance ticket which they were advised could be used on a later train by Virgin staff at Wolverhampton.

You cannot have a 'return portion of an advance ticket'. Advance Purchase tickets are only sold as singles.

 

[AlterEgo]

You could always write to Virgin explaining the problems you had. They'd then be in a position to consider your case. It doesn't hurt to ask them!

 

[taxidave]

You cannot have a 'return portion of an advance ticket'. Advance Purchase tickets are only sold as singles.

You really are being pedantic, I am sure you understood what I meant.
How else would you describe the ticket ?

 

[junglejames]

You really are being pedantic, I am sure you understood what I meant.
How else would you describe the ticket ?

Dont worry, your comment made perfect sense, and it was very obvious what you meant. Crikey, id probably say the same thing as its the most obvious thing to say.

Im still not convinced the ticket was showed to the member of staff at Wolves though. If it had been, they surely wouldnt have been advised what they were.

 

[Ferret]

So do I personally, but we can only go of what the OP claims!

I would have asked for an UPFN if staff had genuinely told me they were valid!

Asking for a UPFN in those circumstances is pointless - you'd still have to pay it because you have the square root of zero chance of a successful appeal. I can think of RPIs who would take name and address details and MG11 for travelling on the wrong train with an Advance and then asking for a UPFN!

 

[Greenback]

Im still not convinced the ticket was showed to the member of staff at Wolves though. If it had been, they surely wouldnt have been advised what they were.

Asking for a UPFN in those circumstances is pointless - you'd still have to pay it because you have the square root of zero chance of a successful appeal. I can think of RPIs who would take name and address details and MG11 for travelling on the wrong train with an Advance and then asking for a UPFN!

I agree. If anyone seeks the advice of the booking office, then get them to endorse the ticket so that it is official!

 

[Ferret]

Greenback - I hear the 'bloke on the platform said I could use a later train' all the time. Each time my answer is 'if you read what it says on the ticket, you'll know that there was no need to ask'. Tbh, I think MG11ing in those circumstances I described is maybe going a bit far, but it's probably correct under the letter of the law.

 

[Greenback]

I know! Whether or not the people in the OP did actually ask the right question if they went to the ticket office is debatable, as is whether they showed the e-ticket. It's just that if I asked if I could use the ticket for a later train,a s a result of a late running inward connection, then i would aks for something in writing, as I did once when my late FGW train at Exeter caused me to miss my SWT service to Axminster.

But who knows! Maybe the people in the OP did show the e-ticket on a mobile phone, the word advance wasn't spotted and the clerk was physically unable to endorse the e-ticket!

 

[Ferret]

Who knows!!! I often wonder if platform staff say 'yes' to the Advance on a later train just because the pax have been stupid enough to ask in the first place!!!

 

[tony_mac]

the advice on here is often to ask the guard. How are the public supposed to know which rail staff can be trusted, and which can't?

From a byelaws point of view - I think that if a staff member told you that you can travel, then you aren't comitting an offence because 'an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket'

 

[Greenback]

I wouldn't go on what a member of platform staff said, I don;t think they have a lot of training on ticketing.

The question is how to prove that permission has been given? The most reasonable way seems to be to get an endorsement, either from the guard (if you need then to catch another train) or ticket office. As Flamingo says, a lot of people claim they were told it's OK to travel on an earlier train, a later train, or a different route. It's difficult to seperate the honest from the chancers.