Back to square one. RMT - RDG talks end.

[Snow1964]

I think strikes on 23-24 Dec are guaranteed now, plus probably 31 Dec-1 Jan. If travelling and not owning a car, now would be the time to book coach travel.

I know someone who always books a car derived van to visit family over Christmas, always cheap as trades people never hire them that week. Easier than relying on rural public transport at the holidays.

Daft time to strike when there are these cheap alternatives

 

[PaulMc7]

Up the RMT.

The government have brought the misery on themselves. On three occasions now the RMT have halted industrial action in order not to inconvene the public, in good faith:

The Queen's mourning period/lying in state and Funeral. Guess who transported people to go stand in The Queue.
The Royal British Legion Poppy event, early November - a day was called off in order to accommodate this.
These talks - I remember getting the lightning-bolt message that all three days of strikes had been called off, and that there were to be constructive talks and an offer on the table to discuss and hammer out.

Don't lash out at us or the RMT. We've tried to play cricket. You all know just how deceitful this current Conservative shambles is - stealth privatisation of the NHS, pouring sewage into the seas, partying during Covid and so forth.

Take your anger out on those who would wage ideological war, not us.
,

The Tories are dreadful but I'm not backing a pro-Brexit union. They're complicit in why we've ended up in this situation where mega pay rises are needed. I feel for the members as they've been sold down the river big time.

 

[Wolfie]

Well perhaps the paymaster should go and whistle then. It’s no fun for any of us,let the TOCs negotiate so we can get back to work.

I'm sure that HMG will let the TOCs talk. What they apparently won't do is provide even one additional penny piece for payrises.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2022 ==

Response from the Rail Delivery Group:

Comment from TSSA:

Source: Lancashire Telegraph (https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.....rail-strikes-highly-likely-rail-union-warns/)

Interesting..... Suggests significant differences between TSSA and RMT.

 

[Thirteen]

Up the RMT.

The government have brought the misery on themselves. On three occasions now the RMT have halted industrial action in order not to inconvene the public, in good faith:

The Queen's mourning period/lying in state and Funeral. Guess who transported people to go stand in The Queue.
The Royal British Legion Poppy event, early November - a day was called off in order to accommodate this.
These talks - I remember getting the lightning-bolt message that all three days of strikes had been called off, and that there were to be constructive talks and an offer on the table to discuss and hammer out.

Don't lash out at us or the RMT. We've tried to play cricket. You all know just how deceitful this current Conservative shambles is - stealth privatisation of the NHS, pouring sewage into the seas, partying during Covid and so forth.

Take your anger out on those who would wage ideological war, not us.
,

The suspension of strikes during the Queen's mourning period was always going to happen just because the public backlash would have been immense and the media would have had a field day. It would have made Holly and Phil's queue gate look like child's play. Likewise with the poppy collection.

 

[Wolfie]

Thats insignificant compared to lost revenue and other fixed costs. All this is doing is worsening railway economics and will lead to further cutbacks of services in due course as they seek to cover the merging gap on operating costs.

HMT will almost certainly dump the costs right back on the railway.

 

[Bald Rick]

There will be no cuts in services. Trains are as busy as ever. It’s a load of nonsense, anyone that works on the railway will confirm as such. Complete rubbish.

I work on the railway, and will happily bet you any money you like that there will be cuts in services.

 

[gka472l]

Up the RMT.

The government have brought the misery on themselves. On three occasions now the RMT have halted industrial action in order not to inconvene the public, in good faith:

The Queen's mourning period/lying in state and Funeral. Guess who transported people to go stand in The Queue.
The Royal British Legion Poppy event, early November - a day was called off in order to accommodate this.
These talks - I remember getting the lightning-bolt message that all three days of strikes had been called off, and that there were to be constructive talks and an offer on the table to discuss and hammer out.

Don't lash out at us or the RMT. We've tried to play cricket. You all know just how deceitful this current Conservative shambles is - stealth privatisation of the NHS, pouring sewage into the seas, partying during Covid and so forth.

Take your anger out on those who would wage ideological war, not us.
,

+1 Absolutely spot on! I was disappointed with today's news (as a RMT member who has lost several days pay) but sadly expected it.....

 

[mandub]

I work on the railway, and will happily bet you any money you like that there will be cuts in services.

I expect there will be.
My assumption is that's something the Treasury/DFT are already predisposed towards.
Do you think it matters what the RMT or ASLEF do? I don't. If we strike it'll happen, if we agree to no pay rises indefinitely it'll still happen.

 

[lordbusiness]

There's also the added prospect of the civil serpents in the DfT, Treasury being on strike too. Just gets better and better.

And yes, I could see some quite significant service cuts and possible line closures on the horizon.

 

[Mintona]

My advice to those in the railway industry looking for a payrise would be to find alternative employment in a different industry.

 

[yorkie]

I don't think the RMT are bothered if they have the support of the public or not. Is there any reason why they would be?

Do you think it matters what the RMT or ASLEF do? I don't. If we strike it'll happen, if we agree to no pay rises indefinitely it'll still happen.

I agree that strikes are not going to be effective, but that won't stop the RMT or ASLEF continuing down this path.

The Royal British Legion Poppy event, early November - a day was called off in order to accommodate this.

But this wasn't an unexpected event, as happened with the Queen's passing, was it? In any case it suited the RMT to change the date as it meant even more disruption as some people had to change plans twice.

 

[fgwrich]

I work on the railway, and will happily bet you any money you like that there will be cuts in services.

In some areas we're already seeing, and feeling them. I fear, with more DfT influence on Rolling Stock, it's only going to get worse from here on out...

 

[43066]

My advice to those in the railway industry looking for a payrise would be to find alternative employment in a different industry.

Really. And how is your job search going for a job that pays better than your current role?

I agree that strikes are not going to be effective, but that won't stop the RMT or ASLEF continuing down this path.

So you think the rail unions should do nothing despite not having a rise for three years in some cases.

Do you feel the same about nurses, teachers etc. who have also been balloted for strike action?

 

[yorkie]

Really. And how is your job search going for a job that pays better than your current role?

Drivers are extremely well paid, so I agree with you; it's unlikely that pay would be higher elsewhere, in this case.

Do you think the rail unions should do nothing despite not having a rise for three years in some cases.

Do you feel the same about nurses, teachers etc. who have also been balloted for strike action?

By all means carry on striking if you want (and, for sure, most drivers can certainly afford to forgo the pay that would entail) but I don't think it's going to be effective. If you disagree, and believe it's going to be effective, you have every right to that opinion.

 

[Thirteen]

I don't think the RMT are bothered if they have the support of the public or not. Is there any reason why they would be?

I agree that strikes are not going to be effective, but that won't stop the RMT or ASLEF continuing down this path.

I do think they are aware of the public being supportive or mind because keep in mind that strikes affects their friends and family as well. It's interesting that the messaging differs between ASLEF and the RMT when it comes to strike acton, Whelan always seem apologetic to the public compared to Lynch.

 

[nedchester]

Fire and rehire can't work on the entire industry.

I have long thought that at some stage the Government would try Fire and rehire and still think that is the case.

Put it this way many rail workers have lost a lot of money and then along comes the Government and tells them they have to accept new T&Cs. The unions may tell their members not to accept but a good number will do because they have families, mortgages etc etc. It's happened elsewhere (BA and Centrica come to mind) and the Government may make that gamble.

At what point they do this I don't know especially with nurses, teachers, firefighters and other public sector workers taking action at the same time.

Please note I DO NOT support such action but I do think it's a distinct possibility.

 

[Need2]

My advice to those in the railway industry looking for a payrise would be to find alternative employment in a different industry.

Wow!
What about other industries that are taking industrial action, or are they more worthy in your mind?

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you think it matters what the RMT or ASLEF do?

I do. For every extra day of strikes the cash problem gets harder, and the service cuts will be deeper.

 

[yorkie]

What about other industries that are taking industrial action, or are they more worthy in your mind?

I don't understand what you are asking; why would a rail employee deem other industries more worthy than their own? But why even ask that question? It's not a matter of one industry being more worthy than another!

 

[43066]

Drivers are extremely well paid, so I agree it's unlikely that pay would be higher elsewhere.

Like most jobs when you’ve been doing them for a few years, it will be difficult to leave for a totally different role paying the same immediately. I disagree the role is “extremely well paid” given what’s involved. There’s also a fair bit of disparity between different TOCs.

Freightliner have AIUI accepted circa 7% no strings. That’s the kind of offer that would settle the dispute industry wide. Still a cut in real terms, of course.

By all means carry on striking if you want (and, for sure, most drivers can certainly afford to forego the pay that would entail) but I don't think it's going to be effective.

I’d much rather not strike. I’d rather a sensible offer was made and the dispute ended, but the government are preventing that.

Do you also disagree with nurses and teachers striking, or does your disapproval of strike action only extend to railway staff?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I have long thought that at some stage the Government would try Fire and rehire and still think that is the case.

Some parts of the industry are more vulnerable to fire and rehire than others, but overall I don't think it's a tactic that would work.

 

[43066]

I do. For every extra day of strikes the cash problem gets harder, and the service cuts will be deeper.

But we all know the government could solve the dispute immediately by allowing the TOCs to negotiate. So why do you see this as a problem caused by strikes, rather than by government intransigence?

 

[Mintona]

Really. And how is your job search going for a job that pays better than your current role?

Actually pretty well thanks. How are the strikes in search of a payrise going?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2022 ==

Wow!
What about other industries that are taking industrial action, or are they more worthy in your mind?

I made no comment on who was more worthy. It’s just so painfully obvious which way this is going, and has been since the start.

 

[Thirteen]

Some parts of the industry are more vulnerable to fire and rehire than others, but overall I don't think it's a tactic that would work.

Fire and rehire would be one quickfire way to lose an election.

Realistically, if a general election was called tomorrow, I'm not sure if it would resolve all the various strike actions.

 

[yorkie]

These attempts to make comparisons with other industries are straw-man / false equivalence fallacies; it's best not to engage in these.

 

[bramling]

I work on the railway, and will happily bet you any money you like that there will be cuts in services.

Already happened on GTR. Barely any of the peak extras ever returned on this side compared to March 2019, since then we’ve also seen some cuts this September. The only enhancement which appears to be on the horizon is a small number of 12-cars three days a week.

 

[43066]

Actually pretty well thanks. How are the strikes in search of a payrise going?

So you’ve found another role paying an equivalent amount? What are you off to do, and have you resigned yet?

The strikes are going fine: they’re begging us to do overtime at time and a half so no loss here…

Attempts to make comparisons with other industries are straw-man / false equivalence fallacies; it's best not to engage in these.

I’m not asking for a comparison of pay/job roles (which I agree are unhelpful).

I’ve asked you to confirm whether you agree with strike action in other industries? If so, why do you disagree with it for railway staff?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Fire and rehire would be one quickfire way to lose an election.

Realistically, if a general election was called tomorrow, I'm not sure if it would resolve all the various strike actions.

I don't know, sticking it to the Greedy Fat Cat Union Barons TM would play well in a depressingly healthy amount of the country.

As for solving issues, it depends how much you think it's political and how much it's fiscal. A sensible pay deal getting towards inflation would be accepted by the unions, for all the bluster they are actually pretty realistic. And Labour are more likely to offer that. But on the political side, there's no love lost between the hard left and Starmer.

 

[Kite159]

.

Fire and rehire would be one quickfire way to lose an election.

Realistically, if a general election was called tomorrow, I'm not sure if it would resolve all the various strike actions.

Although when the tories are already near certain to lose the next election (going by the polls), there are some who might think they have already lost so what the heck, lets do some damage before 2024. (in the eyes of some of the MPs certain to get kicked out come next election if the polls remain negative)

 

[O L Leigh]

These attempts to make comparisons with other industries are straw-man / false equivalence fallacies; it's best not to engage in these.

I don’t think anybody was. I think the question was about whether you consider industrial action taken by certain groups of workers get more support than others.