Azuma on Diesel under the wires

[Jurassicjewel]

Just travelled from Kings Cross to Newcastle on an Azuma (14:00 to Aberdeen) which was running under the wires for the entire journey on Diesel. The Train Manager announced the train was running late, lost about 15 Minutes by the time it reached Newcastle. Later announcement was for operational reasons and due to a technical issue (operational speed was limited) the train would terminate at Edinburgh. Northbound travellers to Aberdeen were advised to catch any available train from Edinburgh.

I assumed that it would be terminated at Edinburgh as there is a maintenance facility there to check what the issue was , or whether these bi mode trains do not have enough diesel in the tanks to operate the whole journey from KX to Aberdeen , as presumably its normally on electric all the way to Edinburgh and Diesel only to Aberdeen. So they normally do not need full tanks?

Am I correct for any of these assumptions?

Thanks

 

[High Dyke]

I don't know about fuel capacity. The unit in question is running with a fault that precludes it from using electric traction. The set will terminate at Edinburgh, to go to the depot - as you rightly mentioned. The same unit first encountered an issue whilst working 1A25 (Leeds - King's Cross)

 

[hexagon789]

Fuel capacity is 1550L per tank when full; enough for 650 miles purely on diesel. (London - Aberdeen is 523 miles.)

 

[DanNCL]

800104 has been under the wires all day so should have had a full tank when it switched to diesel. However, Leeds to London is 186 miles, so if working on the assumption it was on diesel for all of 1A25, even starting on a full tank it wouldn’t have had enough fuel to reach Aberdeen, as the total distance travelled would be 709 miles.

What I’m struggling to see here is if Hitachi are providing the number of operational space units they’re diagrammed to, why wasn’t 800104 swapped off at Kings Cross? Even if it was for an 801 which would still only have gone as far as Edinburgh but wouldn’t have been running at reduced speed. Are Hitachi struggling to provide the contracted number of units?

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't know about fuel capacity. The unit in question is running with a fault that precludes it from using electric traction. The set will terminate at Edinburgh, to go to the depot - as you rightly mentioned. The same unit first encountered an issue whilst working 1A25 (Leeds - King's Cross)

The “traction“ is still electric when running on diesels though. The fault has to be in the high voltage side, ie the pantograph and/or transformer areas.

 

[DanNCL]

The fault has to be in the high voltage side, ie the pantograph and/or transformer areas.

Or a software issue.

 

[swt_passenger]

Or a software issue.

Yes, that’s possible too.

 

[skyhigh]

VCB fault. In addition the unit was only on 3 working engines.

 

[RailWonderer]

Why do IETs only run at 110mph on diesel?

 

[hexagon789]

Why do IETs only run at 110mph on diesel?

They don't, they can run at up to 124mph.

Caveat - the balancing speed is frequently less than the full 124mph on diesel, particularly for an LNER Azuma.

 

[Clarence Yard]

A 9 car IET on 3 engines will be slow. You would struggle to get to 110mph in those circumstances and the higher speed acceleration would be dismal.

The fuel and acceleration tests on GWR showed that the safe operating mileage was 900 miles with all engines working. That was on the basis of an average max 1.6L per mile consumption on 1450L with an assumption of 50L as a “get off the network” buffer and 50L you may never see out of that tank, to get you to that 1550L tank capacity.

On the ECML, dropping an engine or two will put you up to 1.8L to 2.0L per mile so going part way Leeds-KX and then KX-Edinburgh all on diesel is running you fairly close to the physical limit. Certainly, you couldn’t realistically go any further without a huge risk of being out of fuel on that final journey.

A question was raised about swapping out at KX. There may well have been no unit available to swap or no crews to enable the swap to take place. These units, by type, also have to end up at the right depot at the right time so that is another constraint for LNER to work through if a swap has to take place.

 

[MotCO]

If the train was to run out of diesel, would it have to be primed to restart it in the same way you have to prime a car if you run out of diesel (or is that all old technology?)

 

[najaB]

If the train was to run out of diesel, would it have to be primed to restart it in the same way you have to prime a car if you run out of diesel (or is that all old technology?)

I don't believe so. The TMS should shut down the engine before it starts pulling air.

 

[DanNCL]

A question was raised about swapping out at KX. There may well have been no unit available to swap or no crews to enable the swap to take place. These units, by type, also have to end up at the right depot at the right time so that is another constraint for LNER to work through if a swap has to take place.

Hitachi are diagrammed to provide multiple 'hot spares' to LNER on a daily basis, including a 9 car 801 at Bounds Green. If Hitachi were meeting this there should have been at least one spare unit available.
The unit wasn't going to make it to Aberdeen regardless so swapping to an 801 instead of an 800 wouldn't on it's own have been a problem. It's if the unit was available (which it's supposed to be in this case) and if there was a driver to do the empty workings to/from Bounds Green.

 

[43096]

A question was raised about swapping out at KX. There may well have been no unit available to swap or no crews to enable the swap to take place. These units, by type, also have to end up at the right depot at the right time so that is another constraint for LNER to work through if a swap has to take place.

Given that it is down to Hitachi to make these bits of dross work, getting a demic set back to the "right" depot would, you might think, be Hitachi's problem and not the operator's. However, as this is a DfT negotiated contract, nothing would surprise me.

 

[najaB]

Given that it is down to Hitachi to make these bits of dross work, getting a demic set back to the "right" depot would, you might think, be Hitachi's problem and not the operator's.

Hitachi's responsibility would be to make sure that the required number of trains are available to be used on any given day. It's up to LNER to do what's needed to actually use them.

 

[43096]

Hitachi's responsibility would be to make sure that the required number of trains are available to be used on any given day. It's up to LNER to do what's needed to actually use them.

Hitachi are also responsible for making sure they are available for the whole day i.e. don't break down, have bits fall off or whatever. If the set has a no electric restriction and only three engines operative out of five, then it clearly isn't available for the whole day; in fact if it started the day like that then it really shouldn't be counted as available at the start of the day.

 

[najaB]

Hitachi are also responsible for making sure they are available for the whole day i.e. don't break down, have bits fall off or whatever.

Which is why the contract will provide a provision for swapping out units that develop faults.

If the set has a no electric restriction and only three engines operative out of five, then it clearly isn't available for the whole day; in fact if it started the day like that then it really shouldn't be counted as available at the start of the day.

I would agree that if, in fact, it started the day that way then LNER should have refused to have taken it into service for the day and/or Hitachi should have been financially penalised.

 

[td97]

VCB fault

Do these not have 2 pantographs and hence 2 VCBs?

 

[TreacleMiller]

If the train was to run out of diesel, would it have to be primed to restart it in the same way you have to prime a car if you run out of diesel (or is that all old technology?)

They don't "Run out".

Do these not have 2 pantographs and hence 2 VCBs?

Yes and no. In total there are 3 types and upto 5 VCBs - length depending. Two VCB1s (Pan) and additional VCBs for the APS which are mid train and on each trailer.

They can be and are driven with VCB faults, having done it, including on electric mode. If its the unit I think it is, it's one I've driven recently.

Dont underestimate "Get it moving" as a reason to start a journey on diesel rather than troubleshoot electrical issues.

Not sure what happened in this specific case, but they aren't always fully tanked so may well have been a fueling issue.

 

[800001]

Hitachi are diagrammed to provide multiple 'hot spares' to LNER on a daily basis, including a 9 car 801 at Bounds Green. If Hitachi were meeting this there should have been at least one spare unit available.
The unit wasn't going to make it to Aberdeen regardless so swapping to an 801 instead of an 800 wouldn't on it's own have been a problem. It's if the unit was available (which it's supposed to be in this case) and if there was a driver to do the empty workings to/from Bounds Green.

Hitachi will not provide a spare if LNER have several damaged sets (which they do at the moment following fatalities/animal strike), as the damaged units replace the spare diagram.
So on this day there were no 9 car electrics available at any of the depots available for LNER.

The service entered traffic with both pantographs working, however incurred a technical fault at Peterborough while working 1A25, from there it went forward in diesel mode.
No unit to swap with at London, so next best option, was to run it to Edinburgh.

 

[DanNCL]

Hitachi will not provide a spare if LNER have several damaged sets (which they do at the moment following fatalities/animal strike), as the damaged units replace the spare diagram.
So on this day there were no 9 car electrics available at any of the depots available for LNER.

The service entered traffic with both pantographs working, however incurred a technical fault at Peterborough while working 1A25, from there it went forward in diesel mode.
No unit to swap with at London, so next best option, was to run it to Edinburgh.

I had a hunch Hitachi may not have provided any of the spares, seems to be a not too uncommon theme across the 80x fleets. I presume Hitachi incur penalties for not providing the spare diagrams under these circumstances?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Hitachi are contracted to provide a number of diagrams per day. Whether they are diagrammed fully utilised or spare is up to the Operator.

However, if a set is out because it has been bent in your service, it will be excused from the requirement as could you delivering the wrong type to the wrong depot (or the wrong number of that type to the right depot!) at the wrong time, irrespective of whose fault it is. The TARA is a contractual minefield for the Operator.

Incidentally, there are quite strict grounds on what you can reject a set for at start of day - there are different categories of fault and you can be supplied with units that have an engine (or in the case of the 9 cars, two) out. You effectively get a rebate for units supplied with faults.

The availability payment for these units is 5 figures a day, per unit. And you pay for the contracted diagrams in the TARA not just the ones that actually go out onto the tracks.

 

[800001]

I had a hunch Hitachi may not have provided any of the spares, seems to be a not too uncommon theme across the 80x fleets. I presume Hitachi incur penalties for not providing the spare diagrams under these circumstances?

The contract is a minefield as the poster above mentions.

 

[DanNCL]

Hitachi won’t incur a penalty for not providing a spare unit, if LNER have a damaged unit. They have no obligation to provide another unit for a one damaged in service.

It’s hardly LNER’s fault if there’s a fatality!

Looks like a poor contract between the DFT and Agility but then we all knew that. Fatalities sadly aren’t rare and having a unit or two stopped for subsequent repair at any given time is something one would have expected Hitachi to be required to factor in when considering how many units needed to be built to reliably cover all of the contracted diagrams.

That Hitachi receive a 5 digit some of money per diagram on a daily basis even if they don’t actually provide the unit is madness.

 

[800001]

But

It’s hardly LNER’s fault if there’s a fatality!

Looks like a poor contract between the DFT and Agility but then we all knew that. Fatalities sadly aren’t rare and having a unit or two stopped for subsequent repair at any given time is something one would have expected Hitachi to be required to factor in when considering how many units needed to be built to reliably cover all of the contracted diagrams.

That Hitachi receive a 5 digit some of money per diagram on a daily basis even if they don’t actually provide the unit is madness., th

But the TOC pays for a set amount of trains per day, regardless of the cause of damage, it happens in the TOCS care not Hitachi’s, as a result the TOC is required to pay for the train even if it can’t be used due to damage.