AXC or VXC?

[SprinterMan]

Has the CrossCountry franchise improved since arriva took over from virgin? Who was the better operator? Opinions please

 

[dave_wm]

I preferred the greater range of destinations (e.g. Plymouth - Glasgow via Preston, Brighton - Manchester etc) with VXC and the fact they had a shop not a trolley service, but I understand that these were things the DfT changed. The fares were also often somewhat more reasonable I found under Virgin (again, the recession may have been a contributing factor here).

I far preferred the old service to AXC, which feels more like a dodgy regional operator than an InterCity service (although my experience on ex-Central services is far better than on the ex-VXC ones...) - although there are some advantages (such as the reintroduction of HSTs bringing extra seating capacity), but there are some circumstances which would have caused Virgin's operations to go downhill.

One point that was fairly poignant was that VXC, who had suffered with punctuality throughout the franchise (I remember when hearing that a Virgin Train was on time seemed quite unusual when at New Street), achieved their highest punctuality figures ever just one month before the end of the franchise...

 

[MCR247]

I prefered VXC, but I'm sure Manchester prefers XC!

 

[mumrar]

I prefered VXC, but I'm sure Manchester prefers XC!

The punctuality is a marked improvement over Virgin's operation of the franchise and the fleet performance is also a great deal better.

Obviously Arriva don't have a media whore in charge to bring every little good thing they do to everybodies attention, so that doesn't help the comparison.

 

[martinsh]

They are/were both cr*p !!

But at least Virgin put their name on the trains, unlike Arriva who can't even think of a proper livery and copied Virgins' !

 

[Masbroughlad]

Virgin by a million miles!

I travel regularly between Leeds and Wolverhampton (via Manchester or Brum) and fairly often Leeds to Cornwall.

Virgin better because:

More, cheaper advanced fares always available - at weekends - hardly ever with Arriva
Advanced always considerably less than walk up fares AND AVAILABLE
Virgin Money credit card 10% reduction
The shop sold hot food and had a better range
Food and drink were better value
There was an on-board magazine
There was on-board entertainment
The staff seemed prouder then
The trains were cleaner
The trains were better kept
Website was more helpful
Whether they did or not, Virgin seemed to care. Arriva give they impression that they don't give a chuff and that passengers just get in the way!

Need I go on? Arriva have run XC into the ground and deserve to be stripped of the franchise. I hoped the Germans would reverse the decline but they haven't.

ONLY redeeming feature of Arriva XC is the introduction of HSTs (and I think Virgin could have made that work given time with Operation Princess)

The sooner Arriva say Auf Wiedersehen - the better!

Never thought I'd say it before, I'd quite like to see First Cross Country or a new entrant run this franchise (If Virgin don't come back)! Mickey Mouse Rail could do it better than Arriva!

Looking forward to reading other comments on this thread......

 

[Captain Chaos]

Personally I can't stand Arriva Cross Country. Mush better when Virgin was running the franchise. Cheaper Advance fares were available. They had the shop. They also ran to more locations.

It just doesn't have the feel of an Inter-City operator at the moment. The trolley service is a joke if you ask me. The last time I travelled with AXC was about two years ago to travel to Manchester from Reading and was so dissapointed by the lack of choice on the trolley that I had nothing until I got into Manchester. Now if I travel anywhere north of Birmingham I try and find an alternative to using AXC. The level of service compared to VXC is a definite downgrade if you ask me. In fact it is often cheaper to buy Advance tickets from Euston to go to Manchester. I only ever use them now if I have to change at Birmingham New Street for onward travel.

If in the new franchise another operator gets to hold the reigns and can make changes then I will give them another go but for now I avoid using them if possible.

What was the reason that the shop was removed? Was it by order of the DfT or was it a decision that Arriva made on there own?

 

[Anvil1984]

It was removed as passengers were surveyed by Arriva during the franchise process if they would like at-seat catering, but passengers were not informed about the consequences i.e removal of the shop and possibility of hot drinks.

 

[YorkshireBear]

wasnt old enough really or as interested in railways to remember virgin. AXC neither impress or anger me ive had amixed bag on their trains. The empty service i had from leeds to plymouth (via TPE to manchester and change at birmingham) was lovely but then again it was 5am on a saturday.

Until someone extends the voyagers so that a proper shop and enough capacity is there they will continue to be despised no matter who has the franchise in my opinion

 

[ainsworth74]

Until someone extends the voyagers so that a proper shop and enough capacity is there they will continue to be despised no matter who has the franchise in my opinion

Nail. Head. The only reason people have problem with XC (of any vintage) is due to the chronic overcrowding due to the shortness of the Voyagers. If the Voyagers were all 6 or even 7 or 8 cars long then half the complaints we hear about both XC and the Voyagers themselves would evaporate if not overnight then within a short while.

We can only hope that Bombardiers plan to insert panto cars comes to fruition. Unfortunately if EMTs MD is anything to go on it probably won't happen.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Nail. Head. The only reason people have problem with XC (of any vintage) is due to the chronic overcrowding due to the shortness of the Voyagers. If the Voyagers were all 6 or even 7 or 8 cars long then half the complaints we hear about both XC and the Voyagers themselves would evaporate if not overnight then within a short while.

We can only hope that Bombardiers plan to insert panto cars comes to fruition. Unfortunately if EMTs MD is anything to go on it probably won't happen.

yeah i read that too. Well i read the bit from EMT MD in modern railways.

Maybe advance fares would go down aswell everyones a winner.

Amazing what happens if someone employs a brain when ordering new trains. Or people don't fiddle about with it, dont know which was the case with voyagers.
At least LM knew they needed corridor connection on 172s which is step in the right direction. Unlike 18's.... despite how much i like the 185s.

 

[MCR247]

They are/were both cr*p !!

But at least Virgin put their name on the trains, unlike Arriva who can't even think of a proper livery and copied Virgins' !

I don't quite see the resemblance between this and this.

I'll give you the fact that they both involve silver/grey.

And what is wrong with not putting 'Arriva' on the trains?

 

[185]

The answer:

None of the above. Give it to someone new, maybe DSB or Serco-NedRail. Much more trustable than either of them.

Have to give Virgin some credit, at least they had the sense to not screw up on the buffets.

 

[Zoe]

Maybe advance fares would go down aswell everyones a winner.

Unfortunately everyone won't be a winner as if advanced fares are reduced then walk-on fares will almost certainly be hiked. You can't make a profit out of people travelling on dirt cheap fares so something has to compensate.

 

[DarloRich]

neither - Virgin introduced Voyagers, which are totlally unsuitable for long distance services being both to small and powered by underfloor engines which seem to want to break loose fro mthier moorings at every minute ( whoever thought of buying those things should be shot!) Try Edinburgh - Plymouth on a Voyager. 544mi 28ch on a suburban DMU - Wonderful!

Arriva just dont seem to care about ther service they offer, they removed the shop/buffett and seem to want to run the trains into the gorund. I know they are horrible but could you please maybe clean them up once in a while.

I feel sorry for the staff who have to try and work in these conditions. They do a great job and deserve better from thier companies!

 

[Zoe]

neither - Virgin introduced Voyagers, which are totlally unsuitable for long distance services being both to small and powered by underfloor engines which seem to want to break loose fro mthier moorings at every minute ( whoever thought of buying those things should be shot!) Try Edinburgh - Plymouth on a Voyager. 544mi 28ch on a suburban DMU - Wonderful!

Personally I don't like the underfloor engines but I doubt the majority if the travelling public care. Fact is the introduction of the Voyagers was very successful. As I have said in other threads the overcrowding was due to the sudden increase in demand that resulted from the introduction of the Voyagers. The Voyagers do also seem to be quite popular even now with the general public. I think most would prefer to have a modern DMU rather than thirty year old power cars and coaches. The engine noise isn't that bad when you comparse with what else is on offer for the same journey. If you go by car or coach you will still have to put up with noisy engines.

 

[Greenback]

I doubt the average traveller on a Voyager has the remotest interest in where the engines are!

The fact is that the franchise is run like a regional operator is because that is precisely what the customer base is. I warrant that the average punter spends no more than an hour on board on of the trains. Most people will use the service to get from Cheltenham to Bristol, or Derby to Birmingham. It's a bit like FGW Caridff to Portsmouth.

 

[curly42]

Personally I don't like the underfloor engines but I doubt the majority if the travelling public care. Fact is the introduction of the Voyagers was very successful. As I have said in other threads the overcrowding was due to the sudden increase in demand that resulted from the introduction of the Voyagers. The Voyagers do also seem to be quite popular even now with the general public. I think most would prefer to have a modern DMU rather than thirty year old power cars and coaches. The engine noise isn't that bad when you comparse with what else is on offer for the same journey. If you go by car or coach you will still have to put up with noisy engines.

Are you serious ? :roll:

 

[Zoe]

The introducation of the Voyagers was too succesful as it resulted in a sudden increase in demand and overcrowding. Frequencies in many routes were doubled and had there not been this sudden increase in demand (this was in part to to the aggressive marketing campagin Vriigin had just before Operation Princess started) then as I said in another thread I expect we would all be saying what a success it was.

 

[DarloRich]

Personally I don't like the underfloor engines but I doubt the majority if the travelling public care. Fact is the introduction of the Voyagers was very successful. As I have said in other threads the overcrowding was due to the sudden increase in demand that resulted from the introduction of the Voyagers. The Voyagers do also seem to be quite popular even now with the general public. I think most would prefer to have a modern DMU rather than thirty year old power cars and coaches. The engine noise isn't that bad when you comparse with what else is on offer for the same journey. If you go by car or coach you will still have to put up with noisy engines.

I agree with quite a lot of that but suggest that the over crowding has something t odo with the reduction of the number of carriages and a more frequent timetbale in some areas.

5 carriages must carry less passengers than 7/8 - even allowing for modern standrards of "comfort" People think new = better everytime when clearly it doesnt! At least Arriva saw they needed some HST back on longer distance services.

I also think "customers" are aware of the underfloor engines when everything is trying to shake itself to bits and you cant read your paper or watch your DVD when the vibrations reach a certain frequency!

 

[Zoe]

I agree with quite a lot of that but suggest that the over crowding has something to do with the reduction of the number of carriages and a more frequent timetbale in some areas.

As I said, the overcrowding was a result of the sudden increase in demand. The theory was that the same capacity would be retained by halving the length but doubling the frequency. The increased demand was not expected.

 

[Greenback]

Doubling the frequency of any service will increase the demand. Add the introduction of new trains and a massive publicity campaign and it's not hard to see that demand increased by far more than was ever anticipated, by either Virgin or the DfT.

 

[Zoe]

Doubling the frequency of any service will increase the demand. Add the introduction of new trains and a massive publicity campaign and it's not hard to see that demand increased by far more than was ever anticipated, by either Virgin or the DfT.

The railways though having recently been privatized wouldn't want to have risked ordering trains that were going to be carting around a lot of fresh air. Unforunately on some XC routes trains were doing this.

 

[Greenback]

On most routes and services most trains will be carting around a lot of fresh air at some point.

I doubt the first train from Penzance will be packed through Cornwall, yet it may be impossible to get a seat at Reading.

This doesn't alter the fact that the Voyager trains are too short, and badly designed!

 

[Zoe]

This doesn't alter the fact that the Voyager trains are too short, and badly designed!

I agree with you but as I say, I don't think it was thought that their introducation would be so succesful. Had the demand level remained the same then it's unlikely we would have seen the same levels of overcrowding. Ordering longer trains would have been more of a risk at the time. Virgin did want to extend the Voyagers after the increase in demand but the SRA blocked this. The SRA also ordered Virgin's remaining HSTs in 2003 to be withdrawn.

 

[Masbroughlad]

I agree with you but as I say, I don't think it was thought that their introducation would be so succesful. Had the demand level remained the same then it's unlikely we would have seen the same levels of overcrowding. Ordering longer trains would have been more of a risk at the time. Virgin did want to extend the Voyagers after the increase in demand but the SRA blocked this. The SRA also ordered Virgin's remaining HSTs in 2003 to be withdrawn.

What a ridiculous scenario - a train company doing well - too well (???!!!), wanting to order more carriages to increase capacity only to be blocked! Unbelievable!hock:

 

[sprinterguy]

Overall, I favour the current Arriva franchise, even though it is phenomenally bland and lacking in enthusiasm, which is the sort of pzazz that Virgin had in spades. Virgin were brave enough to take big risks, which occasionally back fired spectacularly, whilst Arriva are taking a more measured approach and playing it safe. Each approach has it’s pros and cons but at the end of the day I want to arrive at the station and feel confident that there is going to be a train at the time stated that will get me where I’m going on time.

I like the Arriva franchise because the train service is very reliable (Due in no small part to the dedicated maintenance facility at Central Rivers as concerns the main XC axis), and there is a consistent level of service delivery. They have also been innovative enough to partially undo Virgins’ short-sightedness and bring back five HSTs to supplement the hard pressed Voyager fleet and give extra capacity (I really wish that Virgin had stuck with the “Challenger” HST project). However what I don’t like is that their consistent level of service delivery is so bland and basic, although this suggests that they have got their priorities right and are focusing on getting the day job right and doing the bread and butter, rather than focusing on the flashy gimmicks that often get in the way.

Virgin had problems with reliability, but this is to be expected when they brought in a whole new train fleet. Operation Princess was a fantastic idea that descended into farce as a victim of its’ own success, thanks largely to the DfT capping the length of the Voyagers. Virgin certainly had a talent for marketing, as you would expect, and the ability to “big up” their service and bring it to the attention of a wider audience. I know many people who still refer to “Virgin” when travelling on Crosscountry trains, almost four years on from the franchise change, which goes to show the level of brand recognition and loyalty that Virgin inspired.

 

[Zoe]

thanks largely to the DfT capping the length of the Voyagers.

I'm not sure the dft prevented Virgin from ordering longer Voyagers originally. Remember this was back in the day when the TOCs had much more freedom. It was after the start of Operation Princess that Virgin wanted longer Voyagers and the SRA said no.

 

[asylumxl]

When a FGW service arrives at Plymouth, on jump the cleaners and they proceed to make the train presentable for its next trip..

When AXC service arrives at Plymouth, very rarely do you see anyone clean up, and in my experience the train leaves for it's next service looking like a corner shop has exploded in each carriage.

I seem to remember there was a dispute a while back because Arriva expected their staff to take on work that wasn't in their remit, such as cleaning?

So Arriva vs Virgin. Definetly Virgin. They value presentation and professionalism.

 

[curly42]

I attended meetings with Virgin Trains representatives where almost everyone in the room told them that Operation Princess was going to be a disaster,for quite a few different reasons. The reply was that it had been decided to run shorter trains but on a more regular basis - that was it. No compromise,no taking advice. Market research had shown that it would "ease the overcrowding situation that currently existed and would benefit the passenger by allowing more flexibility with travel plans". Most people in the room (excluding Virgin staff) had many years of railway experience,from the ground up,and all agreed that it would fall apart. The Virgin staff ( 6 people,none with more than a year on the railway) told us that we should move with the times.
Operation Princess went ahead - an absolute total disaster the likes of which most long term railway staff had never seen. Virgins reaction to that fiasco,and the resulting political fall out have led to the situation that we have today. An absolute shambles.
The Voyagers are the wrong trains on the wrong services. End of story.
And unless things change,the same mistakes are about to be made with the Great Western electrification.
Things change - but not by much.