AWC Derailment (03/11): speculation regarding alternative provision, unit reconfigurations, etc

[trainophile]

Moderator note: Split from

AWC Derailment at Shap Summit 03/11/25

Reports coming in of a derailed train near Shap Summit up Goods loop. Looking like 1R22 0428 from GLC to EUS https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service-disruptions/penrith-20251103/ A derailed train between Penrith and Oxenholme means all lines are blocked. Trains running between Carlisle and...

www.railforums.co.uk

Does Avanti have spare sets, or will various services for the rest of the country be compromised while this one is repaired? I presume so, as they will have trains out of service for routine maintenance, so hopefully they can cover everything.

Edit: Shame it was an 11-coacher .

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Might the differential in passenger numbers be that there were 85 reserved seats on departure from Glasgow, but there may have been walk-ups both there and at Carlisle?

Does Avanti have spare sets or will various services for the rest of the country be compromised while this one is repaired? I presume so as they will have trains out of service for routine maintenance, so hopefully they can cover everything.

Edit: Shame it was an 11-coacher .

They really ought to swap the damaged driving car with that of a 9 car while it gets fixed, much better to lose one of those for a year than an 11.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

They really ought to swap the damaged driving car with that of a 9 car while it gets fixed, much better to lose one of those for a year than an 11.

The set will be maintained as a set, so that would throw one vehicle out of sync, so they aren't likely to be keen on that. So far as I am aware there has never been any swapping around of Pendolino vehicles between sets.

The 'out for a year' seems to have been plucked entirely from the air! Until they've inspected it in detail they won't know how long repairs are likely to take.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I see several posts suggesting boosting a 9 car unit to 11 cars with vehicles from 390 117, but it won't be that easy - they'll presumably have to check the integrity of all the coupling bars and carriage ends on every vehicle in 390 117 first, which will take quite a while.

Then there's the need to check the undersides and mounted equipment of every vehicle as well.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Run a few booked 10-cars as 5 so the other 5 subs a Pendo diagram to free it up.

 

[357]

Run a few booked 10-cars as 5 so the other 5 subs a Pendo diagram to free it up.

I believe the train involved was an 11-car so it's a bit more complicated, from my experience if there is no available 11-car...

A 9-car Pendolino will cover an 11-car diagram

If there isn't a spare 9-car: A 5-car IET will cover a 9-car diagram

If there isn't a spare IET: a 10-car diagram gets shortened to 5

Hope that makes sense!

 

[CAIB]

Are any Avanti drivers up to speed and signed the Settle to Carlisle yet pre-January? Or is that too much like common sense?

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Maybe wheel out the Pretendolino.

 

[Toby268]

Are any Avanti drivers up to speed and signed the Settle to Carlisle yet pre-January? Or is that too much like common sense?

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Maybe wheel out the Pretendolino.

Avanti drivers are being route conducted in January as it’s been left too late for them to learn it. Conductor drivers from a FOC are currently learning the route, and only a limited amount of them, 16 I believe. So it’s not really a viable option for the coming days unfortunately.

 

[The Planner]

Maybe wheel out the Pretendolino.

That is never coming back.

 

[357]

Are any Avanti drivers up to speed and signed the Settle to Carlisle yet pre-January? Or is that too much like common sense?

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Maybe wheel out the Pretendolino.

When we had it at Abellio it was on its last legs (and affectionately called the "PretendAbellio"!).

I've no idea what's happened to it in the decade since then - but I doubt it's available unfortunately.

If there was to be a replacement train I'd think LSL would be the best bet if an IET isn't available from somewhere

 

[skyhigh]

Maybe wheel out the Pretendolino.

Which has been split up, has slam doors which are banned without significant mitigation, no crew left that sign it and was never PRM compliant?

 

[Class83]

Surely ordering an extra 807 would be the easiest solution if the 390 isn't recoverable. With the potential to use any undamaged carriages there might be to strengthen some of the 9 car units.

 

[6Gman]

Which has been split up, has slam doors which are banned without significant mitigation, no crew left that sign it and was never PRM compliant?

Yes, but apart from that ....

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Surely ordering an extra 807 would be the easiest solution if the 390 isn't recoverable. With the potential to use any undamaged carriages there might be to strengthen some of the 9 car units.

I may not be an expert but I would be EXTREMELY surprised if 117 was a write off.

 

[j37401]

Avanti drivers are being route conducted in January as it’s been left too late for them to learn it. Conductor drivers from a FOC are currently learning the route, and only a limited amount of them, 16 I believe. So it’s not really a viable option for the coming days unfortunately.

Yes DBC Carlisle & Warrington drivers will be route conducting in January. Sounds like AWC aren't interested in training their drivers up for future diversions and see the January blockade as a one off.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

Maybe wheel out the Pretendolino.

DVT (and spare DVT) scrapped. One buffet now with LSL and one with GWR. Couple of coaches at Crewe Heritage Centre. One a cafe in Herefordshire. Think Eastern Rail Services have the other five. Slam door anyway, so not PRM compliant.

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If there was to be a replacement train I'd think LSL would be the best bet if an IET isn't available from somewhere

Slam doors wouldn't be allowed, which would rule out all of LSL's fleet.

Romic have sliding-door HST stock which would be sufficiently compliant, but it has to be very, very unlikely that any one-off set of any type will be hired in

 

[XCTurbostar]

It’s very unlikely that 390117 will be written off. There has been far worse incidents where the train has returned to service.

If Avanti do happen to be reading this, I would suggest considering taking 390117s coaches U and F and hot swapping them into a nine car set to make best use of the resources whilst the DMFO is being repaired.

 

[Toby268]

Yes DBC Carlisle & Warrington drivers will be route conducting in January. Sounds like AWC aren't interested in training their drivers up for future diversions and see the January blockade as a one off.

Supposedly drivers will eventually be trained up on it, Train managers have learnt it and are keeping it permanently on their cards.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The removal of 5 Avanti services from the December timetable (at ORR insistence) must mean there is spare capacity in the rolling stock fleet.
Some capacity was also being kept for the May 2026 service level increase.
Either way Avanti should be able to resource the current service level from its 390 and 80x stock for at least 6 months.

 

[43096]

The removal of 5 Avanti services from the December timetable (at ORR insistence) must mean there is spare capacity in the rolling stock fleet.
Some capacity was also being kept for the May 2026 service level increase.
Either way Avanti should be able to resource the current service level from its 390 and 80x stock for at least 6 months.

Are Avanti running the same/more services than pre-Covid, or have they not all been reinstated yet?

 

[MontyP]

It’s very unlikely that 390117 will be written off. There has been far worse incidents where the train has returned to service.

If Avanti do happen to be reading this, I would suggest considering taking 390117s coaches U and F and hot swapping them into a nine car set to make best use of the resources whilst the DMFO is being repaired.

Or just take an end vehicle from a 9 car set and add it to the 10 undamaged vehicles from 390117?

 

[357]

Slam doors wouldn't be allowed, which would rule out all of LSL's fleet.

They were a couple of years ago when we had LSL 90s and 86s providing extra services. I was on one of them.

They're more of a challenge to staff, and more expensive to run, but I don't believe it's correct that they aren't allowed.

Is the GWR sleeper still slam-door?

 

[Yorkshire09876]

They were a couple of years ago when we had LSL 90s and 86s providing extra services. I was on one of them.

Those were technically run as charters (one service a day, and not every day). It wouldn't be allowed on a standard timetabled service.

Is the GWR sleeper still slam-door?

Yes, that was granted a specific derogation to allow it, with safeguards in place (window bars, etc). This had to be done as there was no other suitable stock available, and it's one train a day in each direction anyway, with low occupancy. There's no way that any further slam-door derogations would be granted for timetabled daytime trains now. There was a significant push to get rid of them.

 

[Class83]

I may not be an expert but I would be EXTREMELY surprised if 117 was a write off.

That seems quite reasonable, my response was more aimed at anyone expecting the return of Mark 3s. The minimal amount of damage which can get a car written off these days is frightening, but if the bodywork is separate from the structure then it should be more straightforward to repair that I suppose. Are 390s built on a frame?

 

[Tony2]

It’s very unlikely that 390117 will be written off. There has been far worse incidents where the train has returned to service.

If Avanti do happen to be reading this, I would suggest considering taking 390117s coaches U and F and hot swapping them into a nine car set to make best use of the resources whilst the DMFO is being repaired.

Better using this from 390033 surely?

What's left of 390033

Two coaches from the original nine, a cab coach and pantograph coach from 390033 sit at the Virgin training academy. This was the Pendolino that was involved in the Grayrigg accident over ten years ago. It is a testiment to the design that there was only one fatality in an accident like this...

www.flickr.com

 

[Yorkshire09876]

That seems quite reasonable, my response was more aimed at anyone expecting the return of Mark 3s. The minimal amount of damage which can get a car written off these days is frightening, but if the bodywork is separate from the structure then it should be more straightforward to repair that I suppose. Are 390s built on a frame?

Insurers will write things off depending on repair costs. A train which cannot be replaced like-for-like (and if it could would cost multiple millions) is a bit different to a car!

Pendolinos (like all modern units) are of moncoque construction. In their case the bodyshells are of extruded aluminium sections, welded together.

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Better using this from 390033 surely?

What's left of 390033

Two coaches from the original nine, a cab coach and pantograph coach from 390033 sit at the Virgin training academy. This was the Pendolino that was involved in the Grayrigg accident over ten years ago. It is a testiment to the design that there was only one fatality in an accident like this...

www.flickr.com

As has already been pointed out several times in this thread, the whole of 390 033 was written off because nobody was prepared to guarantee that the bodyshells hadn't been weakened by the significant forces which it had been subjected to. This was widely reported at the time when it was written off.

 

[reduke]

Better using this from 390033 surely?

What's left of 390033

Two coaches from the original nine, a cab coach and pantograph coach from 390033 sit at the Virgin training academy. This was the Pendolino that was involved in the Grayrigg accident over ten years ago. It is a testiment to the design that there was only one fatality in an accident like this...

www.flickr.com

That's been previously discussed and ruled out

 

[357]

Better using this from 390033 surely?

There's really not much left of it once you start opening cupboards or looking underneath!

 

[Yorkshire09876]

There's really not much left of it once you start opening cupboards or looking underneath!

Have you been inside it? What have they done on the inside where they plated over the two doors in the buffet coach? Always wondered that (only seen it from outside)?

 

[Tony2]

Better using this from 390033 surely?

What's left of 390033

Two coaches from the original nine, a cab coach and pantograph coach from 390033 sit at the Virgin training academy. This was the Pendolino that was involved in the Grayrigg accident over ten years ago. It is a testiment to the design that there was only one fatality in an accident like this...

www.flickr.com

Here’s a more up to date photo this year, it’s now even in Avanti livery!

390033

Avanti Training School Crewe 6th July 2024

www.flickr.com

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There's really not much left of it once you start opening cupboards or looking underneath!

Maybe enough in both of 390033 and 390117 to make a serviceable car?