Awaiting Platforms at Doncaster

[ECML180]

Is it me or do many fast services from Sheffield make good time all the way through until they reach Hexthorpe then stand waiting for a platform outside Doncaster station for sometimes up to 10 minutes? Even stopping services do it sometimes and it isn't necesarily just those trains running early, mine today was about 5 minutes late on arrival but 5 early when it joined the queue!

This has occured for as long as I remember but seems to be getting worse. Is it just general congestion? Or are there regular pathing issues?

 

[d429uk]

Doncaster is its own time vortex regularly the TPE services can arrive early and depart late in either direction. Often problems stem from lack of paths across the ECML. In an ideal world Doncaster could do with a Platform 9 & 10 built and add a flyover to connect the Sheffield and Goole / Scunthorpe lines freeing up capacity on ECML could maybe be done by making partial use of the current avoiding line just north of station.

 

[Senex]

Is it me or do many fast services from Sheffield make good time all the way through until they reach Hexthorpe then stand waiting for a platform outside Doncaster station for sometimes up to 10 minutes? Even stopping services do it sometimes and it isn't necesarily just those trains running early, mine today was about 5 minutes late on arrival but 5 early when it joined the queue!

This has occured for as long as I remember but seems to be getting worse. Is it just general congestion? Or are there regular pathing issues?

It's certainly my experience too, using XC services on the Doncaster route between Sheffield and York.

Another case where a track layout designed at a time when money was very tight indeed for the train-service of that time can't really handle a totally different service-pattern?

 

[ECML180]

Yeah, I'd thought it would probably be related to the problem of getting from one end of the station to the other. But having said that, it does seem to be the case that services 'clump' together with a number of trains turning up at once, the nothing happening for a bit which I imagine doesn't help.

I wonder whether adding platforms 9/10 on the yard would help such that northbound East Coast trains towards Leeds could be sent that way, freeing up trains crossing to use 4/8. If this happens then they could in theory cross half the traffic then the other half a bit easier. Or as mentioned by Senex, perhaps it's pretty much not gonna work for todays service levels regardless of what you do!

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

The TPE trains do wait for a while going eastward, but going westward the wait is still there but is very short usually.

 

[edwin_m]

The junction towards Sheffield was singled - I think at the time of re-signalling in the 70s though it may have been at electrification. It was doubled again at the turn of the century for the increased XC frequency. This junction is very close to the end of the platforms, to the extent that a full-length train towards Sheffield has to use one of the west side platforms in the "wrong" direction. For this reason it's highly unlikely grade separation could be provided.

A flyover at the north end would be very difficult too, because of the major road and rail bridges going over (and there's a river underneath ruling out a diveunder). So it's hard to see what could be done to make Doncaster work any better, except for the unpopular option of splitting the east-west trains and making everyone walk through the subway.

 

[brompton rail]

The junction towards Sheffield was singled - I think at the time of re-signalling in the 70s though it may have been at electrification. It was doubled again at the turn of the century for the increased XC frequency. This junction is very close to the end of the platforms, to the extent that a full-length train towards Sheffield has to use one of the west side platforms in the "wrong" direction. For this reason it's highly unlikely grade separation could be provided.

A flyover at the north end would be very difficult too, because of the major road and rail bridges going over (and there's a river underneath ruling out a diveunder). So it's hard to see what could be done to make Doncaster work any better, except for the unpopular option of splitting the east-west trains and making everyone walk through the subway.

Some years ago a flyover was considered. It would have run North on the west side lines to pass under the A630 St George's Bridge, then over the River Don to turn eastwards onto the Doncaster Avoiding Line. This line, currently freight only, crosses bothe Leeds and York lines and joins the Doncaster to Hull / Scunthorpe line. At the time I was assured by a senior Doncaster MBC Engineer that there was sufficient headroom to pass under the A630. That would have allowed Hull and Grimsby passenger trains (4 per hour each way) to reach platforms 4,6,7 & 8 without conflict. However it is platforms 4 and 8 where the conflict is, hence delays northbound.

Any solution, especially at the Hexthorpe end would be very expensive!

 

[Senex]

Some years ago a flyover was considered. It would have run North on the west side lines to pass under the A630 St George's Bridge, then over the River Don to turn eastwards onto the Doncaster Avoiding Line. This line, currently freight only, crosses bothe Leeds and York lines and joins the Doncaster to Hull / Scunthorpe line. At the time I was assured by a senior Doncaster MBC Engineer that there was sufficient headroom to pass under the A630. That would have allowed Hull and Grimsby passenger trains (4 per hour each way) to reach platforms 4,6,7 & 8 without conflict. However it is platforms 4 and 8 where the conflict is, hence delays northbound.

Any solution, especially at the Hexthorpe end would be very expensive!

I thought that flyover was the idea still being debated, but coupled with a new island platform 9/10 to keep the east/west service completely clear of the north/south service. Very similar indeed to the Nuneaton changes a dozen years ago.

 

[eastwestdivide]

The junction towards Sheffield was singled - I think at the time of re-signalling in the 70s though it may have been at electrification. It was doubled again at the turn of the century for the increased XC frequency. This junction is very close to the end of the platforms, to the extent that a full-length train towards Sheffield has to use one of the west side platforms in the "wrong" direction. ....

For clarity, Sheffield-bound full-length trains have had to use the west side platforms since (4/8) at least the 1980s, even when the junction was single.
So that means one XC an hour, plus the Adwick-Sheff stopper, while the Hull-Sheff, Cleethorpes-Manchester and Scunthorpe-Sheff all use the east side (3B?), and the crossings just south of the dead centre of the station.

Come to think of it, there's a fair bit of room on 3B, so a 4/5-car XC ought to fit there.

Whichever side they take, they've still got to block the down ECML.

 

[edwin_m]

For clarity, Sheffield-bound full-length trains have had to use the west side platforms since (4/8) at least the 1980s, even when the junction was single.
So that means one XC an hour, plus the Adwick-Sheff stopper, while the Hull-Sheff, Cleethorpes-Manchester and Scunthorpe-Sheff all use the east side (3B?), and the crossings just south of the dead centre of the station.

Come to think of it, there's a fair bit of room on 3B, so a 4/5-car XC ought to fit there.

Whichever side they take, they've still got to block the down ECML.

Yes I agree this is a longstanding situation going back to when all the XC trains were full-length HSTs. For something coming from York direction crossing at the north end is probably better as there are high speed crossovers*, rather than using 3B then the low-speed ladder in the middle of the station from a standing start.

*though these are often from a standing start too, because there is a signal stop at the two level crossings.

 

[Senex]

Yes I agree this is a longstanding situation going back to when all the XC trains were full-length HSTs. For something coming from York direction crossing at the north end is probably better as there are high speed crossovers*, rather than using 3B then the low-speed ladder in the middle of the station from a standing start.

*though these are often from a standing start too, because there is a signal stop at the two level crossings.

25 through the ladder from the up fast to platform 4 line, the 25 through the Sheffield-line junction, as opposed to 15 through the ladder from platform 3B to the Sheffield-line junction, so both rather slow.

Certainly a few years ago one of the morning XC services, I think about 7:30 or 8:30 from York, regularly used 3B and then crossed the 15 mph ladder.

It sounds as if your experience of signals at the north end of Doncaster is very similar to mine ...

 

[edwin_m]

It sounds as if your experience of signals at the north end of Doncaster is very similar to mine ...

Yes. It must be really frustrating to drive along that road with the two level crossings, where I guess either of them can be blocked by trains standing at the signals.