Awaiting letter from GTR (1st time offence)

[WesternLancer]

Awesome, thank you for all the help, folks.

I managed to get into the East Midlands Railway Railcard website so I have a printout of the digital railcard.

FINAL DRAFT:

Dear Fare Evasion Manager,


I am writing in response to your response letter dated the [date],
Reference number: [number].


Thank you for considering my request to settle out of court.


I am happy to pay the outstanding fares and investigation costs for this procedure; however, I noticed while examining the fares which have been included in the outstanding fares fee that the journeys purchased from [date] to [date] were all legitimate and purchased with a valid railcard at the time.


Here is the number of the railcard that was valid when I purchased these tickets:[number]
This railcard commenced on [date] and expired on [date].


I've also included proof of purchase of said railcard through the East Midlands Railway website via the Order Confirmation email and further details related to the railcard such as expiry on the East Midlands Railway railcard website.


I would like to ask that you consider removing those fares from your request, as I believe I held valid tickets for those journeys.


Many thanks for considering my request.

Looking good to me

 

[steven_lak]

Looking good to me

Thanks, should I raise the fact that this may delay my payment of the fee while I ask for mitigation, meaning it could go over the 14 days (the timeline given in GTR's response letter agreeing to the out of court settlement) while I await the outcome of my request?

I assume I've covered myself already by agreeing to pay early in the letter:

'I am happy to pay the outstanding fares and investigation costs for this procedure; '

Just want to be super sure

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks, should I raise the fact that this may delay my payment of the fee while I ask for mitigation, meaning it could go over the 14 days (the timeline given in GTR's response letter agreeing to the out of court settlement) while I await the outcome of my request?

I assume I've covered myself already by agreeing to pay early in the letter:

'I am happy to pay the outstanding fares and investigation costs for this procedure; '

Just want to be super sure

hmm - not sure - if they replied to you before quickly then maybe you will get an answer to this quickly. maybe worry about that if the 14 days gets close and you've not heard back?

Did they e-mail you or was their request / offer to settle by letter? E-mail might progress more speedily for obvious reasons.

 

[steven_lak]

hmm - not sure - if they replied to you before quickly then maybe you will get an answer to this quickly. maybe worry about that if the 14 days gets close and you've not heard back?

Did they e-mail you or was their request / offer to settle by letter? E-mail might progress more speedily for obvious reasons.

They replied to me within 2 working days last time.

I included my email in my first response but they opted to reply by letter.

They provide this email on the website gtr.prosecutions@gtrailway.com

But also say:

PLEASE NOTE – This mailbox is only used to inform us of a new correspondence address or sending through evidence of a valid ticket or railcard at the time the journey was undertaken, this email address cannot be used to make any appeal or mitigation, any emails sent in this vein will be ignored and deleted.


I'm technically making an appeal here

 

[WesternLancer]

They replied to me within 2 working days last time.

I included my email in my first response but they opted to reply by email.

They provide this email on the website gtr.prosecutions@gtrailway.com

But also say:

PLEASE NOTE – This mailbox is only used to inform us of a new correspondence address or sending through evidence of a valid ticket or railcard at the time the journey was undertaken, this email address cannot be used to make any appeal or mitigation, any emails sent in this vein will be ignored and deleted.


I'm technically making an appeal here

Yes, they have an auto reply to e-mail that people have quoted which says the same - yet also they do sometimes pick up cases sent in by e-mail which have extenuating or urgent circumstances that we have seen in other threads

So it might be worth a try....

but they opted to reply by email.

Do you mean 'by letter' or by e-mail? If they opted to reply by e-mail then I think you could certainly try e-mailing back

when is the 14 days up?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I'm technically making an appeal here

No you're not - you're negotiating.

As you're replying to an email from GTR then the obvious thing to do is to reply to that email, at whatever address it's from. If you're worried that your email won't get through, then send a paper copy through the post as well: you can go for various forms of tracked delivery which (at a cost) will confirm that your paper letter got to them.

 

[steven_lak]

No you're not - you're negotiating.

As you're replying to an email from GTR then the obvious thing to do is to reply to that email, at whatever address it's from. If you're worried that your email won't get through, then send a paper copy through the post as well: you can go for various forms of tracked delivery which (at a cost) will confirm that your paper letter got to them.

This was my mistake in the post you're referring to - they replied via letter. Though I did include my email in my original written reply, so they'll have it.

I've since amended the post for clarity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2025 ==

Yes, they have an auto reply to e-mail that people have quoted which says the same - yet also they do sometimes pick up cases sent in by e-mail which have extenuating or urgent circumstances that we have seen in other threads

So it might be worth a try....


Do you mean 'by letter' or by e-mail? If they opted to reply by e-mail then I think you could certainly try e-mailing back

when is the 14 days up?

Ok, interesting. Maybe I'll take both routes then.

I suppose I could drop it into the actual office myself. I've seen someone on here claim to do as much

And yes, I did mean 'by letter'. Edited my original post

 

[WesternLancer]

This was my mistake in the post you're referring to - they replied via letter. Though I did include my email in my original written reply, so they'll have it.

I've since amended the post for clarity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2025 ==


Ok, interesting. Maybe I'll take both routes then.

I suppose I could drop it into the actual office myself. I've seen someone on here claim to do as much

And yes, I did mean 'by letter'. Edited my original post

as @Fawkes Cat says - send it by e-mail but post a print of of it too (you can just use an ordinary 2nd class stamp if you don't want to pay for tracked) - I'm not sure if you can deliver it by hand to their offices or not. Might be worth a try, if you can't I'm sure there will be a red pillar box nearby you can use if you have a stamp to hand

 

[steven_lak]

UPDATE:

The saga continues, and this time I'm confused as to what to do.
Previously, I received a willingness from GTR for an out of court setttlement, as mentioned, which highlighted some journeys which were included in the fee which were valid, as I had a railcard at the time.
I responded with proof of my railcard at the time of these journeys, requesting that these particular journeys be removed. However, as stated in my response letter (included above) the railcard DID NOT cover the journeys after this, so the incident I was reported for I did not have a valid railcard for.

Somehow this has been misunderstood by GTR because I recieved this letter today.

"Dear Mr <name>,

We refer to a travel irregularity reported to this department by a member of our Revenue Protection team.

We understand you had a ticket for your journey on <day I was caught by inspector and hence reported> purchased with a Railcard Discount, but did not have your Railcard needed to validate the ticket.
With this in mind we would be obliged if you would send a copy of the Railcard (and a copy of the accompanying photoxard with the expiry date, if appropriate) to this department by return. This can be done by post, fax, email to gtr@prosecutions@gtrailway.com or by submitting your railcard on the Thameslink website: <link>.
Failure to do so may result in prosecution through a magistrate's court.
I look forward to hearing from you,
Yours sincerely
Fare Evasion Manager"


So they've misunderstood my letter and think I had a valid railcard during the original incident. I had several people to read over my letter, including those on this forum, so I'm sure I was clear in my intent.
I'm now concerned as to what they might do if I don't present this? They've already agreed in writing to an out-of-court settlement, but I assume that's still at their discretion.

What should I do? The 2 weeks to pay the original out-of-court settlement expires this coming Monday
Email and explain the situation?
Just pay the outstanding fee?

Any advice here would be greatly appreciated, as always!

 

[soil]

The 2 weeks isn't a real deadline, it's just one they've made up - as long as you are negotiating constructively and responding in timely fashion you shouldn't worry about it.

Reply, restating the facts, explaining that they have misunderstood.

 

[steven_lak]

DRAFT OF EMAIL TO CLARIFY MISUNDERSTANDING:

Dear Fare Evasion Manager,

This is regarding the last correspondence I have received by post in relation to case reference number: <CASE REFERENCE NUMBER>.

It seems like there may be some confusion around my response. My wish with the last letter correspondence was to kindly request that the out-of-court settlement be updated to reflect the removal of journeys that were taken with a valid railcard. The dates for these journeys was from the <date> to <date>. There was no valid railcard for the incident in question.

I have included my valid railcard details that covers <date> to <date> in my previous letter, but I have also included it here in this email for clarity. I have also included both post responses I have written to GTR for context.

Here is the railcard number used for these journeys.

I hope this clarifies things, but please let me know if there's anything else I can do to clarify these matters.

Yours sincerely,
<Name>

How does this come across? Any suggestions?

I'm concerned with incriminating myself again by saying something like "There was no valid railcard for the incident in question" but I feel like it's necessary to mention.

 

[soil]

I would say something more like.

Dear,

In reply to your letter dated <date> asking me for my railcard for my travel on <date>, I wish to confirm that on that date I held no valid railcard, as I had neglected to renew my previous railcard.

I did hold a railcard between <dates> (and <dates>?)

In your previous letter dated <date>, you offered to settle this matter by payment of a sum comprising your expenses of <£x> and fares for the period during which I had no valid railcard.

I would like to confirm that I am happy to resolve this matter on such terms, however in your letter of <date> you included all my previous travel on your trains, not only the fares during the time after my railcard expired.

As such, can I please request that you provide a revised settlement sum to take into account the period during which my railcard was valid.

Regards,

 

[steven_lak]

I would say something more like.

Dear,

In reply to your letter dated <date> asking me for my railcard for my travel on <date>, I wish to confirm that on that date I held no valid railcard, as I had neglected to renew my previous railcard.

I did hold a railcard between <dates> (and <dates>?)

In your previous letter dated <date>, you offered to settle this matter by payment of a sum comprising your expenses of <£x> and fares for the period during which I had no valid railcard.

I would like to confirm that I am happy to resolve this matter on such terms, however in your letter of <date> you included all my previous travel on your trains, not only the fares during the time after my railcard expired.

As such, can I please request that you provide a revised settlement sum to take into account the period during which my railcard was valid.

Regards,

This reads well but it concerns me that I will have to reincriminate myself all over again. Perhaps they change their mind regarding the out of court settlement?

 

[soil]

This reads well but it concerns me that I will have to reincriminate myself all over again. Perhaps they change their mind regarding the out of court settlement?

Reincriminate yourself for what?

They've asked you for your railcard, which you can't provide. You are guilty of the offence by being unable to provide a valid ticket.

Therefore you're already guilty and if they wanted to prosecute you, they'd win - you could only stop this by forging a railcard: you didn't have one, and they're effectively offering to drop the matter entirely if you did. As you didn't, there's nothing for you to do there.

However, they prefer to settle, you're not admitting deliberate avoidance, so I don't see the issue with resolving the matter by being straightforward.

 

[steven_lak]

Reincriminate yourself for what?

They've asked you for your railcard, which you can't provide. You are guilty of the offence by being unable to provide a valid ticket.

Therefore you're already guilty and if they wanted to prosecute you, they'd win - you could only stop this by forging a railcard: you didn't have one, and they're effectively offering to drop the matter entirely if you did. As you didn't, there's nothing for you to do there.

However, they prefer to settle, you're not admitting deliberate avoidance, so I don't see the issue with resolving the matter by being straightforward.

Yeah, I hear you, and perhaps I'm being a bit paranoid on this matter. However, it seems by the way this letter is written like they've not had the context of anything that came before in the previous correspondence on this case.

In my previous letters I:
- Admitted I was wrong for buying an anytime day ticket with the railcard discount with an expired railcard, and apologised, promised to never do it again etc.
- Agreed to pay any outstanding fees and admin fees
- Have agreed to pay the fee they then suggested, but but kindly asked they would remove the journeys that were purchased when my railcard had not expired.
- Mentioned the valid journeys were dated before the date of the incident

The letter I received today basically says 'Oh, there seems to be some irregularity where you didn't have your railcard on you but bought a railcard ticket. Let's fix that'
It's as if the previous correspondence, where I mentioned all of the above points, never happened. Do you see what I mean now?

As if this whole thing will just restart

 

[WesternLancer]

I would say something more like.

Dear,

In reply to your letter dated <date> asking me for my railcard for my travel on <date>, I wish to confirm that on that date I held no valid railcard, as I had neglected to renew my previous railcard.

I did hold a railcard between <dates> (and <dates>?)

In your previous letter dated <date>, you offered to settle this matter by payment of a sum comprising your expenses of <£x> and fares for the period during which I had no valid railcard.

I would like to confirm that I am happy to resolve this matter on such terms, however in your letter of <date> you included all my previous travel on your trains, not only the fares during the time after my railcard expired.

As such, can I please request that you provide a revised settlement sum to take into account the period during which my railcard was valid.

Regards,

This looks like a good response to me fwiw.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

Yeah, I hear you, and perhaps I'm being a bit paranoid on this matter. However, it seems by the way this letter is written like they've not had the context of anything that came before in the previous correspondence on this case.

In my previous letters I:
- Admitted I was wrong for buying an anytime day ticket with the railcard discount with an expired railcard, and apologised, promised to never do it again etc.
- Agreed to pay any outstanding fees and admin fees
- Have agreed to pay the fee they then suggested, but but kindly asked they would remove the journeys that were purchased when my railcard had not expired.
- Mentioned the valid journeys were dated before the date of the incident

The letter I received today basically says 'Oh, there seems to be some irregularity where you didn't have your railcard on you but bought a railcard ticket. Let's fix that'
It's as if the previous correspondence, where I mentioned all of the above points, never happened. Do you see what I mean now?

As if this whole thing will just restart

I doubt the people who have to read this stuff get much time to do so. Things could easily have been misunderstood.

 

[steven_lak]

This looks like a good response to me fwiw.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==


I doubt the people who have to read this stuff get much time to do so. Things could easily have been misunderstood.

Ok, I’ll email them something like this then. Think it’s necessary to include all the railcard proof I attached to my previous letter?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

Final draft before sending email:

Dear Fare Evasion Manager,

This is regarding the last correspondence I have received by post in relation to case reference number: <number>.

In reply to your letter dated <date> asking me for my railcard for my travel on <date>, I wish to confirm that on that date I held no valid railcard.

I did hold a railcard between <date> and <date>.

In your previous letter dated <date>, you offered to settle this matter by payment of a sum comprising your expenses of £100.00 plus the fares for the period during which I had no valid railcard.

I would like to confirm that I am happy to resolve this matter on such terms, however in your letter of <date> you included all my previous travel on your trains, not only the fares during the time after my railcard expired.

As such, can I please request that you provide a revised settlement sum to take into account the period during which my railcard was valid.

To help with clarity and context, I've attached my 2 initial responses by post in this email, alongside my proof of railcard for the period of between <date> to <date>.

Regards,



Ok, going to email this, any other suggestions before I do?

 

[WesternLancer]

Ok, I’ll email them something like this then. Think it’s necessary to include all the railcard proof I attached to my previous letter?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

Final draft before sending email:

Dear Fare Evasion Manager,

This is regarding the last correspondence I have received by post in relation to case reference number: <number>.

In reply to your letter dated <date> asking me for my railcard for my travel on <date>, I wish to confirm that on that date I held no valid railcard.

I did hold a railcard between <date> and <date>.

In your previous letter dated <date>, you offered to settle this matter by payment of a sum comprising your expenses of £100.00 plus the fares for the period during which I had no valid railcard.

I would like to confirm that I am happy to resolve this matter on such terms, however in your letter of <date> you included all my previous travel on your trains, not only the fares during the time after my railcard expired.

As such, can I please request that you provide a revised settlement sum to take into account the period during which my railcard was valid.

To help with clarity and context, I've attached my 2 initial responses by post in this email, alongside my proof of railcard for the period of between <date> to <date>.

Regards,



Ok, going to email this, any other suggestions before I do?

I see no reason not to attach the railcard proofs. Makes things easier for them I would think.

 

[steven_lak]

I emailed the response I've included here. I received an automated message which states "we DO NOT negotiate settlement amounts via email, all settlement amounts are as offered and any query regarding the amount needs to be made in writing to the Fare Evasions Manager to the address below."

Has anyone negotiated by email successfully?

I’ve already negotiated via post

 

[WesternLancer]

I emailed the response I've included here. I received an automated message which states "we DO NOT negotiate settlement amounts via email, all settlement amounts are as offered and any query regarding the amount needs to be made in writing to the Fare Evasions Manager to the address below."

Has anyone negotiated by email successfully?

I’ve already negotiated via post

They clearly want people to write by post.

You can wait and see if the do respond to the email and sometimes we see that they do, but for the price of a stamp that might be unwise if they just ignore your email.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2025 ==

I guess with the bank holiday coming up and the delay in post that will cause you may want to post something soon. Probably just print your e mail and enclosures if you can and hand write ‘as sent by e mail on x date’ at the top and hand sign it

Assume it will have your ref number postal and email address on it. Make it easy for them to reply to you even if they don’t make it as easy for you.

 

[steven_lak]

Ok, I’ll try to send it by post today.

At this point I’m happy to just pay the full fee but I’m not sure that’s even an option now, since it sounds they want a railcard for the date of the incident. This last part of the correspondence has been a mess

 

[WesternLancer]

Ok, I’ll try to send it by post today.

At this point I’m happy to just pay the full fee but I’m not sure that’s even an option now, since it sounds they want a railcard for the date of the incident. This last part of the correspondence has been a mess

OK - my hunch on this is that someone their end has not studied things carefully enough. GTR are usually reasonable to deal with and I'd typically expect them to remove fares where you did have a valid railcard and valid ticket.

Juts hope this gets resolved for you without too much further hassle

They usually seem to pay fair - I'd even go as far as to say if you paid them the full sum and then carried on with showing / proving some of the fares should not have been re-charged they might refund you for them later - but don't do that yet if they have still given you time before the revised deadline. Fingers crossed they will even pick up the e-mail but I tend to think it's worth posting the stuff to as you plan to do.

 

[steven_lak]

OK - my hunch on this is that someone their end has not studied things carefully enough. GTR are usually reasonable to deal with and I'd typically expect them to remove fares where you did have a valid railcard and valid ticket.

Juts hope this gets resolved for you without too much further hassle

They usually seem to pay fair - I'd even go as far as to say if you paid them the full sum and then carried on with showing / proving some of the fares should not have been re-charged they might refund you for them later - but don't do that yet if they have still given you time before the revised deadline. Fingers crossed they will even pick up the e-mail but I tend to think it's worth posting the stuff to as you plan to do.

Thanks for the reassuring response, I've posted everything with a mini explainer that I've also sent an email yesterday. The post is guaranteed to arrive by tomorrow 1pm.

I'm going to give it until the end of the week to hear back from them before I just pay for the full thing. The end of the deadline from the original outstanding fares letter is Monday 25th. If I hear nothing by Friday/Saturday I'll pay the full thing and see what happens.
I'll post here with updates. I'm sure this will be helpful for others

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for the reassuring response, I've posted everything with a mini explainer that I've also sent an email yesterday. The post is guaranteed to arrive by tomorrow 1pm.

I'm going to give it until the end of the week to hear back from them before I just pay for the full thing. The end of the deadline from the original outstanding fares letter is Monday 25th. If I hear nothing by Friday/Saturday I'll pay the full thing and see what happens.
I'll post here with updates. I'm sure this will be helpful for others

do you have enough wriggle room to wait a day or two after the bank holiday before paying? I've not checked your dates. If it were me I'd hold off paying anything until the day before the last day they say you can pay by I think.

But obviously it's your call on how best to reduce the stress all this creates so I'm not trying to dissuade you for what you want to do.

 

[steven_lak]

do you have enough wriggle room to wait a day or two after the bank holiday before paying? I've not checked your dates. If it were me I'd hold off paying anything until the day before the last day they say you can pay by I think.

But obviously it's your call on how best to reduce the stress all this creates so I'm not trying to dissuade you for what you want to do.

I'm not sure I have much wiggle room. The original letter requesting the settlement sum was dated the 11th of August. They specified in this letter that:
'Failure to pay the above amount within 14 days on the date of this letter could result in the case continuing through the magistrates's court process where Govia Thameslink Railway may apply for additional costs'

Meaning I have until bank holiday Monday, which complicates things.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2025 ==

As a side note, the first few days of October will mark 6 months since the original incident, meaning that if this drags on until then, they can no longer threaten prosecution. Given how fast they've responded to me, I'm sure they're aware of that

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm not sure I have much wiggle room. The original letter requesting the settlement sum was dated the 11th of August. They specified in this letter that:
'Failure to pay the above amount within 14 days on the date of this letter could result in the case continuing through the magistrates's court process where Govia Thameslink Railway may apply for additional costs'

Meaning I have until bank holiday Monday, which complicates things.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2025 ==

As a side note, the first few days of October will mark 6 months since the original incident, meaning that if this drags on until then, they can no longer threaten prosecution. Given how fast they've responded to me, I'm sure they're aware of that

OK - yes I can see the difficulty date wise. Frustarting.

 

[steven_lak]

OK - yes I can see the difficulty date wise. Frustarting.

Indeed