Avoiding the Rail Replacement Coach

[exile]

Hi

I'm going to Northampton on Sat 3rd March, from Warrington (though Runcorn is possible), returning on Sun 4th.

On the return trip I can get a rail replacement coach to Rugby and then
a train to Warrington - eg 10:15 arriving 13:15 (3 hours)

On the other hand I can go to Milton Keynes on the 10:08 and arrive at 12:14 (2 hours 6 mins) - . However this is NOT a valid journey on an off peak return from Warrington to Northampton despite being nearly an hour faster and being offered as a journey by National Rail.

What are my options? Is a return to Milton Keynes valid to Northampton (this would cost an extra £4.40, well worth avoiding the dreaded Rail Replacement Coach)? Any other possibilities?

 

[radamfi]

Yes, an Off-Peak Return from Warrington to Milton Keynes is valid through Northampton.

 

[exile]

Would getting off at Northampton count as a break of journey and if so would it be allowed?

 

[MarkyMarkD]

I don't think radamfi's answer addresses the question that exile asked.

The question is whether a Warrington - Milton Keynes return will do the job for the Warrington - Northampton return trip, i.e. stopping short on the way out via Northampton (which is fine) and then getting back from Northampton via Milton Keynes (which isn't fine, because it's travelling the wrong way between Northampton and Milton Keynes).

 

[radamfi]

I don't think radamfi's answer addresses the question that exile asked.

The question is whether a Warrington - Milton Keynes return will do the job for the Warrington - Northampton return trip, i.e. stopping short on the way out via Northampton (which is fine) and then getting back from Northampton via Milton Keynes (which isn't fine, because it's travelling the wrong way between Northampton and Milton Keynes).

Oh yes, sorry, my mistake.

Map LC of the Routeing Guide shows Warrington to Northampton via Bletchley to be a valid route.

 

[exile]

The map may show it as valid but there is an "easement" (ha!) which prevents Northamptoners from travelling northwards via Milton Keynes.

Total lunacy. If the TOC could accept that people travelling north from Northampton could start off - only on days where the Rugby route is closed - by going to Milton Keynes, they would then not have to incur the costs of providing a replacement coach service besides allowing passengers to have quicker journeys.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I think it is fine though. The Off-Peak Return from Warrington Stations to Milton Keynes Central takes restriction 2C, which allows break of journey. Since the changes to NRCoC and ticket validites on 5th October last year, if you break your journey overnight on the outward portion of an off-peak return you can resume at any time the next day (it used to be you had to resume before 12pm).

It seems really hard to find this information on the web and it is wrong in the NFM11 CD. But I'm confident it's correct; have a look here (need to be logged into the forum for this link), particularly point 2 (relevant section quoted below):

What is changing?

The new rules applying to these tickets are shown below:

Ticket Type: Anytime Single
Outward validity: Two days without restriction. Second day continues past midnight and ends at 0429 in line with the new rules.

Ticket Type: Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Single;
(also Outward portions of Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Returns)

Outward validity: One day. Journey MUST commence on the date on the ticket. If the journey cannot be completed on first day, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. All travel must be completed by 0429 past midnight on the second day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, the same time restrictions from the origin station apply on BOTH days.

It was clarified later in that same thread that a possible reason why the journey might not be able to be completed on the first day, could simply be that the passenger didn't wish to complete the journey on the first day.

So I am confident the OP is fine with just the Warrington to Milton Keynes off-peak return and doesn't need a separate Northampton to Milton Keynes single on the Sunday.

 

[radamfi]

The map may show it as valid but there is an "easement" (ha!) which prevents Northamptoners from travelling northwards via Milton Keynes.

Oh yes, 'easement' 700066

"Customers travelling from Northampton to Rugby and beyond may not travel via Milton Keynes. This easement applies in both directions."

But I forgot about the new ability to use the ticket on the next day which was widely discussed on here so you should be OK with a Warrington to MK ticket as explained by Indigo2.

Are there any rules about going off route if the direct route has a bus replacement? I've seen TOCs recommend doing this on Twitter.

 

[OwlMan]

You could get the 1117 from Northampton - Rugby - Crewe (which is a train but is diverted to travel south from Northampton & reversing on the WCML north of Milton Keynes (from LM details The 11.36 Northampton to Crewe service will start from Northampton earlier (at 11.17) and will not call at Long Buckby.)

 

[calc7]

You could get the 1117 from Northampton - Rugby - Crewe (which is a train but is diverted to travel south from Northampton & reversing on the WCML north of Milton Keynes (from LM details The 11.36 Northampton to Crewe service will start from Northampton earlier (at 11.17) and will not call at Long Buckby.)

Worth it to ride a 350 through the Kilsby tunnel

 

[exile]

I think it is fine though. The Off-Peak Return from Warrington Stations to Milton Keynes Central takes restriction 2C, which allows break of journey. Since the changes to NRCoC and ticket validites on 5th October last year, if you break your journey overnight on the outward portion of an off-peak return you can resume at any time the next day (it used to be you had to resume before 12pm).

It seems really hard to find this information on the web and it is wrong in the NFM11 CD. But I'm confident it's correct; have a look here (need to be logged into the forum for this link), particularly point 2 (relevant section quoted below):



It was clarified later in that same thread that a possible reason why the journey might not be able to be completed on the first day, could simply be that the passenger didn't wish to complete the journey on the first day.

So I am confident the OP is fine with just the Warrington to Milton Keynes off-peak return and doesn't need a separate Northampton to Milton Keynes single on the Sunday.

Thanks. Hope the on-train staff are aware of this!

cheers
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh yes, 'easement' 700066

"Customers travelling from Northampton to Rugby and beyond may not travel via Milton Keynes. This easement applies in both directions."

But I forgot about the new ability to use the ticket on the next day which was widely discussed on here so you should be OK with a Warrington to MK ticket as explained by Indigo2.

Are there any rules about going off route if the direct route has a bus replacement? I've seen TOCs recommend doing this on Twitter.

I can't find this train on the National Rail site...... please link to where you found it

 

[John @ home]

Oh yes, 'easement' 700066

"Customers travelling from Northampton to Rugby and beyond may not travel via Milton Keynes. This easement applies in both directions."

I can't find this train on the National Rail site...... please link to where you found it

Most Easements, including 700066, are in the Easements section of the National Routeing Guide.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I can't find this train on the National Rail site...... please link to where you found it

See here: http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C51320/2012/3/4

 

[exile]

I think it is fine though. The Off-Peak Return from Warrington Stations to Milton Keynes Central takes restriction 2C, which allows break of journey. Since the changes to NRCoC and ticket validites on 5th October last year, if you break your journey overnight on the outward portion of an off-peak return you can resume at any time the next day (it used to be you had to resume before 12pm).

It seems really hard to find this information on the web and it is wrong in the NFM11 CD. But I'm confident it's correct; have a look here (need to be logged into the forum for this link), particularly point 2 (relevant section quoted below):



It was clarified later in that same thread that a possible reason why the journey might not be able to be completed on the first day, could simply be that the passenger didn't wish to complete the journey on the first day.

So I am confident the OP is fine with just the Warrington to Milton Keynes off-peak return and doesn't need a separate Northampton to Milton Keynes single on the Sunday.

I had a read of that thread and as far as I can see the situation has not been clarified at all. Though if I turn up at Northampton with my ticket to MKC on Sunday no-one actually knows when I got off the train on the previous day - so how anyone could police the restriction stating that overnight stay is only allowed if the journey "cannot" be completed in the same day is beyond me, unless they're going to look at CCTV pictures of me leaving the station at 10:30 am - all to try to squeeze another £8 out of me for the Northampton - MKC leg!

There's also the notorious 04:29 rule which on a simple interpretation suggests I'd have to get to MK by 04:29 on Sunday anyway!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

See here: http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C51320/2012/3/4

Yes - that train exists - but takes 53 minutes! And I wonder whether the RG would actually allow me to use it......

 

[34D]

Yes - that train exists - but takes 53 minutes! And I wonder whether the RG would actually allow me to use it......

The routeing guide doesn't apply to direct trains.

Dare I ask what is so bad about getting the coach though

 

[exile]

The routeing guide doesn't apply to direct trains.

Dare I ask what is so bad about getting the coach though

It means the journey takes 3 hours instead of 2 hours via MKC!

 

[OwlMan]

Yes - that train exists - but takes 53 minutes! And I wonder whether the RG would actually allow me to use it......

There is an exception in the routeing guide for trains diverted due to engineering work.

Any through train diverted from its usual route will count as a
permitted route between the stations it is normally scheduled to call at. This
does not apply to additional stops on the diversionary route, unless specially
advised or they are on the permitted route for the journey being made.

 

[exile]

There is an exception in the routeing guide for trains diverted due to engineering work.

Thanks. I'll have to explore this option "manually" - www.nationalrail.co.uk resolutely fails to acknowledge this train exists.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Looks like the simplest thing will be to take the rail replacement option, despite the extra travel time involved.Alternatively I could travel Runcorn - Northampton (super off peak single £19.90), Northampton - MKC £8 and then MKC-Runcorn (Virgin advance) (12:09 has some £24.50 advances left) total £52.20. Will have to look up buses to Runcorn.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've since found that restriction 2C specifically allows an overnight stay on the outward leg of a journey. So I propose to buy an SVR Warrington-MKC, break journey at Northampton, and proceed to MKC the next day. An overnight stay requires the passenger to resume their journey before 1200 the next day.

 

[Paul Kelly]

An overnight stay requires the passenger to resume their journey before 1200 the next day.

As I said above, if the restriction code allows break of journey, since 5th October last year with the outward portion of an off-peak or super off-peak return you can now resume your journey at any time on the second day and up until 04:30 on the third day. Before 12:00 on the second day was in the old rules, before 5th October last year. (Lots of sources of information have not yet been updated to the new rules).

 

[exile]

As I said above, if the restriction code allows break of journey, since 5th October last year with the outward portion of an off-peak or super off-peak return you can now resume your journey at any time on the second day and up until 04:30 on the third day. Before 12:00 on the second day was in the old rules, before 5th October last year. (Lots of sources of information have not yet been updated to the new rules).

This was taken from "General conditions for this type of ticket" from brfares.com, for the ticket type SVR. I would have thought this would be the terms that would actually apply when I buy my ticket. In any case 12:00 is OK for me - the important thing is that the right of the passenger to break their journey overnight is explicitly stated.

However, I've searched in vain on www.nationalrail.co.uk for any publicly available document that makes the position clear.

 

[OwlMan]

As I said above, if the restriction code allows break of journey, since 5th October last year with the outward portion of an off-peak or super off-peak return you can now resume your journey at any time on the second day and up until 04:30 on the third day. Before 12:00 on the second day was in the old rules, before 5th October last year. (Lots of sources of information have not yet been updated to the new rules).

As a general rule that is correct, but individual restriction codes can restrict the times allowede for second day travel
For example code 2Q requires you start on the second day before 12:00

................................
Overnight Break of Journey - restarting journey from an intermediate station: On day 2, restrictions as above apply and journey must recommence before 12:00.

Peter

 

[Paul Kelly]

As a general rule that is correct, but individual restriction codes can restrict the times allowede for second day travel
For example code 2Q requires you start on the second day before 12:00

Are you sure? My understanding from the staff briefing from ATOC that was posted on the forum here last September/October was that the new "all-day on the second day" validity was intended to apply to all off-peak and super off-peak returns. If it's as you say then that means things are even more inconsistent than before; at least previously the rule about 12:00 was consistent for all SVR/SSR/OPR tickets and it was only whether break of journey was allowed or not that varied between restriction codes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As far as I can see that text at the end of restriction 2Q (for a journey this applies to see e.g. the SSR from Abergavenny to London Terminals) has been there since at least NFM07, and back then it would have been consistent with the general rules so wouldn't have been intended to override them :-?

 

[exile]

The staff briefing does not form part of the contract between the passenger and the TOC. Only the publicly available terms and conditions for the ticket type and restriction code are relevant.

I'm currently relying on the general conditions for SVR relating to break of journey - but I'm still unable to find a public document that says what these are so have had to get them from brfares.com.

(edit - have found a copy of these conditions - http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/tickets-and-fares/ticket-types/off-peak-tickets/177/)

 

[OwlMan]

From the manual

#4 - Break of Journey

Break of journey is allowed on the outward portion of Off-Peak tickets unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket’s validity code and in all cases on the return portion of Off-Peak return tickets.
Off-Peak Singles and the outward portion of Off-Peak Returns are valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 04:29 the following morning. If the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, the same time restrictions from the origin station apply on BOTH days. All travel must be completed by 04:29 in the morning after this second day. Please note that break of journey is not permitted on some journeys, as detailed in the ticket restrictions.
Return portions of Off-Peak Return tickets are valid for travel until 04:29 on the day following the last day of validity (i.e. one calendar month from outward journey). All travel must be completed by this time.
Note: Cross London transfers on Off-Peak Singles will only be accepted by London Underground on the date shown on the ticket and until 04:29 the following day.

#2 - Break of Journey
Break of journey is allowed on the outward portion of Super Off-Peak tickets unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket’s validity code, and in all cases on the return portion of Super Off-Peak return tickets.
Super Off-Peak Singles and the outward portion of Super Off-Peak Returns are valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 04:29 the following morning. If the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, the same time restrictions from the origin station apply on BOTH days. All travel must be completed by 04:29 in the morning after this second day. Please note that break of journey is not permitted on some journeys, as detailed in the ticket restrictions.
Return portions of Super Off-Peak Return tickets are valid for travel until 04:29 on the day following the last day of validity (i.e. one calendar month from outward journey). All travel must be completed by this time.
Note: Cross London transfers on Super Off-Peak Singles will only be accepted by London Underground on the date shown on the ticket and until 0429 the following day.

 

[exile]

But that flatly contradicts the published terms and conditions for the ticket type! What may appear in a manual issued to staff and not to the public cannot possibly form part of the contract entered into when buying the ticket.

 

[Paul Kelly]

OK after thinking about it for a while I've changed my mind and I think OwlMan is right. If the text against the individual restriction code mentions overnight break of journey (as 2C does, thus affecting a Warrington Stations to Milton Keynes Central SVR) then it overrides the general rule about resuming any time on the second day.

I'm not sure this is the intention (especially since the inclusion of the relevant text in the restriction code pre-dates the change in the rules), but I think it forms the "legal" ticket validity restrictions that are binding on the passenger. I think it might be worth asking Virgin about in this case (since they set the fare), and maybe ATOC too.

 

[OwlMan]

But that flatly contradicts the published terms and conditions for the ticket type! What may appear in a manual issued to staff and not to the public cannot possibly form part of the contract entered into when buying the ticket.

What contradicts the published T&Cs they also say unless indicated in the restriction code.

from online t&Cs

The outward part of Super Off-Peak Return tickets are valid for travel on the date shown on your ticket and until 0429 the following morning. If the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, the same time restrictions from the origin station apply on both days. All travel must be completed by 0429 in the morning after this second day.

 

[exile]

But I'm not buying a Super Off-Peak - it's an Off Peak (SVR) with restriction 2C, which makes no specific mention of break of journey.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Oh yes you're right - according to <http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_2C.pdf>. Looks like that has been updated recently then. The text in Avantix Traveller NFM11 still includes the restriction that the journey must be resumed on the second day before 12:00.
So you're good to go I think.

 

[QJ]

Where do temporary easements because of engineering work get published so the public can check them (assuming they are)?

IIRC when AXC were running replacement coaches between Winchester and Oxford passengers with Basingstoke to Oxford and north thereof tickets were allowed to travel by AXC or SWT service to Winchester to travel onto Oxford (rather than train to Reading for another to Didcot for a replacement coach to Oxford).