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Aviation Discussion

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507021

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I'm very surprised Boeing never updated the 757 (new engines and systems), seeing how many of them are still plying their trade. I'd of thought airlines would be much keener for a 757 over the 321xlr, primarily for its much better freight carrying capacity (helps make a route viable), something the babybus family isn't too good at.

So am I, I'm of the view the 757 is the best looking and most versatile aircraft Boeing ever produced. In contrast, the larger variant of the 737 which was designed to replace it had poorer runway and climbing performance, as well as an inferior range. I dearly hope that if there is a 797, it's a brand new narrow body design which sees off the 737 and introduces a much needed 757 replacement.

Of the 1,050 757s built, around 650 are still in active service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I think it was one reason, the A320neo.

That doesn't surprise me, sadly.

It frankly baffles me that Boeing are still persisting with the 737 platform, a design which is nearly 60 years old.
 
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jfollows

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So am I, I'm of the view the 757 is the best looking and most versatile aircraft Boeing ever produced.
I also think it was good for passengers on the routes it served - my experience is nothing compared to some contributors here of course, but I've used the 757 twice Manchester-Keflavik and return, so four separate trips, and also on United's Manchester-New York Newark service. The latter was fine for the purpose, I travelled economy and didn't have any problems.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Yes I have had 81 recorded flights and 147000 miles on the Boeing 757. One of my favorite planes. Frequent flyers love it because of the F:Y ratio so your upgrade chance increase
 
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Domh245

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It frankly baffles me that Boeing are still persisting with the 737 platform, a design which is nearly 60 years old.

Cost (& money) - A new airframe would have cost massive amounts to develop, and would have been later to market than the 737MAX would have been. It would also have lost the attractiveness of common type certificates that the A320neo had as a major selling point, which together with the delay and cost could have potentially lost them customers. Bit of a damned if you do/damned if you don't situation for Boeing really - there's a really good video about it all here

The benefit of hindsight means that we can sit here and say Boeing were fools for not developing a new airframe with all of the advantages it'd have had, but that's hindsight for you
 

JonasB

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That doesn't surprise me, sadly.

It frankly baffles me that Boeing are still persisting with the 737 platform, a design which is nearly 60 years old.

There have been rumours that Boeing was working on a new plane to replace the 737, but when Airbus announced the A320neo they felt the need to react as a new plane available in 10-15 years would not stop existing Boeing customers switching to Airbus.
 

gsnedders

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I think thats a reasonable bet in the long term but I can't see Airbus making a A321 sized new model this decade. The A320 family is young compared with 737 and the smallest 787 is too large to compete directly. The A321XLR has received a tremendous number of orders since it was announced last year and once the pandemic subsides it will be sell placed to sweep the lower end of the middle of the market. There will be plenty of airlines that thought the A321XLR was a bit too small but will happy with it post pandemic. That may cause production capacity issues and a A220-500 would use different production lines. They could limit sales to existing A220 customers to avoid losing too many A320 sales. The A220-300 is the series base model so a further stretch for a A220-700 is possible although unlike the proposed 500 version, I don't think serious design work has been done.

Airbus have previously mooted a mid-to-late-20s programme launch for an A320 family replacement, aiming for a entry into service in the early 2030s. Realistically this is all going to be linked to the launch of ultra-high bypass turbofans.

I'd be skeptical about a A220-700; the A220-500 will already likely be as long as an A321 which provides a fair deterrent against stretching further (given gate compatibility, etc.), as the five-abreast seating inherently lengthens it for the same capacity.

There have been rumours that Boeing was working on a new plane to replace the 737, but when Airbus announced the A320neo they felt the need to react as a new plane available in 10-15 years would not stop existing Boeing customers switching to Airbus.

And combine that with airlines inherently having a balancing act between fuel efficiency and pilot training for any 737 replacement, which inherently means a shared type rating is valuable to airlines. But yes, I think it's been publicly said that a large part of the 737MAX programme being launched was to compete with the A320neo.


So am I, I'm of the view the 757 is the best looking and most versatile aircraft Boeing ever produced. In contrast, the larger variant of the 737 which was designed to replace it had poorer runway and climbing performance, as well as an inferior range. I dearly hope that if there is a 797, it's a brand new narrow body design which sees off the 737 and introduces a much needed 757 replacement.

Of the 1,050 757s built, around 650 are still in active service.

The 757 was a niche, though. Over a slightly shorter time period, Airbus has delivered over 6000 A320 family aircraft. That makes it vastly easier to justify the business case to spend the billions to develop the airframe

Airbus could hypothetically make a further A320 family stretch, the A322, and with the ever-increased MTOW of the A321 it looks ever more viable, and they've occasionally looked at doing so since the A321 launched.

With Boeing's current difficulties and the A320's family large order book, there's no pressing need to launch such an aircraft now: the A321XLR is taking up what slack there is in the market, and even if they launched an A322 soon it would be many years before the entry to service.
 

507021

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I also think it was good for passengers on the routes it served - my experience is nothing compared to some contributors here of course, but I've used the 757 twice Manchester-Keflavik and return, so four separate trips, and also on United's Manchester-New York Newark service. The latter was fine for the purpose, I travelled economy and didn't have any problems.

Absolutely, I found the 757 interiors I sampled to be far nicer than those on similar sized aircraft I've travelled on.

Cost (& money) - A new airframe would have cost massive amounts to develop, and would have been later to market than the 737MAX would have been. It would also have lost the attractiveness of common type certificates that the A320neo had as a major selling point, which together with the delay and cost could have potentially lost them customers. Bit of a damned if you do/damned if you don't situation for Boeing really - there's a really good video about it all here

The benefit of hindsight means that we can sit here and say Boeing were fools for not developing a new airframe with all of the advantages it'd have had, but that's hindsight for you

I guess in a way, the 737 is probably the Dennis Dart of the aviation industry.

Thanks for sharing the video, I'll give that a watch later on.

There have been rumours that Boeing was working on a new plane to replace the 737, but when Airbus announced the A320neo they felt the need to react as a new plane available in 10-15 years would not stop existing Boeing customers switching to Airbus.

I've just had a read about that particular aircraft, very interesting. The renderings of the proposed design look smart too.

With Boeing's current difficulties and the A320's family large order book, there's no pressing need to launch such an aircraft now: the A321XLR is taking up what slack there is in the market, and even if they launched an A322 soon it would be many years before the entry to service.

That does make sense.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Are there quality issues with the Charleston plant?

Yes! But in truth there are quality issues at all manufacturing centres. It seems that Boeing having established the Charleston plant as largely non-unionised failed to give it the right level of management attention. But now it has decided to concentrate all 787 builds there things will surely improve. In fact they have to, the 787 is the only civil aircraft programme making Boeing any decent profit at the moment.
 

Speed43125

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Are there quality issues with the Charleston plant?
Rather worryingly, I've heard it claimed you can hear the difference of a Charleston plane on takeoff roll through the rattling of plastic in the cockpit. Hopefully, that will be exaggeration, but I think Qatar refusing delivery of Charleston 78s is hardly based on unfounded concerns.
 

gsnedders

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Rather worryingly, I've heard it claimed you can hear the difference of a Charleston plane on takeoff roll through the rattling of plastic in the cockpit. Hopefully, that will be exaggeration, but I think Qatar refusing delivery of Charleston 78s is hardly based on unfounded concerns.
To be fair, if Boeing is reliant on Charleston to get 787s delivered then Boeing cannot afford to have customers reject the aircraft at the pre-delivery inspection and then the aircraft need extensive rework, so they have a strong motivation to sort out the issues if it's the only 787 line.
 

Western Lord

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Those people extolling the virtues of the Boeing 757 and condemning the 737 as an "old" design should be aware that they have identical fuselage structures, both derived from the 707 upper lobe of the 1950's via the 727 of the 1960's.
 

507021

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Those people extolling the virtues of the Boeing 757 and condemning the 737 as an "old" design should be aware that they have identical fuselage structures, both derived from the 707 upper lobe of the 1950's via the 727 of the 1960's.

I'm aware this is the case, however the 757 isn't doing a job it was never designed to do in the first place.

When it was first designed, the 737 was never intended to become what it is today.
 

Ted633

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Biggest issue with the 737 is the landing gear, it being far too short (designed for the slim JT-8). Even the 'classic' series had to have elliptical nose cowls because of the poor ground clearance.
 

Jamesrob637

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Rather worryingly, I've heard it claimed you can hear the difference of a Charleston plane on takeoff roll through the rattling of plastic in the cockpit. Hopefully, that will be exaggeration, but I think Qatar refusing delivery of Charleston 78s is hardly based on unfounded concerns.

Don't trust a Qatar 787 - they bash Airbuses :D


"Bashed an Airbus and you're to blame
You give planes a bad name"
to quote legendary Jon Bon Jovi!
 

JonasB

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Airbus have previously mooted a mid-to-late-20s programme launch for an A320 family replacement, aiming for a entry into service in the early 2030s. Realistically this is all going to be linked to the launch of ultra-high bypass turbofans.

Or if we are lucky, there will be a hydrogen powered replacement.
 

gsnedders

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Or if we are lucky, there will be a hydrogen powered replacement.
I don't think there's anything to suggest that'll suffice at this point, though there will definitely be an awkward transition period where you want A320-sized aircraft with green fuel (whether that's hydrogen or something else) for short flights (and plenty of A320 flights are short!), but you'll still have an equally large need for longer range aircraft.

Clearly the ZEROe project is moving towards hydrogen, but it's still relying on internal combustion rather than fuel cells, so it's benefits while substantial are limited. I wouldn't be particularly surprised to see a multitude of options, like we haven't seen in a while (given increasingly involved engine integrations), from jet fuel to hydrogen to series hybrid designs.
 

flymo

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Another B757 lover here, mainly because it was the first plane I ever flew on. Newcastle - Corfu with British Caledonian (in Oct '92 ??...not sure) and loved it. Had a few BA B757 on the Newcastle - Heathrow shuttles way back when, loved the sound of those engines. Giddyup !!

The B737 just doesn't have the same appeal to me, last one I had was United from Las Vegas to San Francisco, got me out of schtuck but a very meh plane.
 

507021

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I was wondering if anyone knows what aircraft Jet2 use on the Manchester-Larnaca route please?

I'm looking at going there at the end of the month as our Fuerteventura holiday was cancelled earlier today.
 

Bald Rick

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I was wondering if anyone knows what aircraft Jet2 use on the Manchester-Larnaca route please?

I'm looking at going there at the end of the month as our Fuerteventura holiday was cancelled earlier today.

It’s been a 737 for the last couple of weeks.
 

silverfoxcc

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The 757 has a little bit of the Connie about it, that small S shape just make me go OOOOOOOH

And as for the BA 321neo i had one back from Barcelona last year NEVER again

I wrote to BA ( not that they take much notice) telling them if i wanted to travel in Ryanair seating i will, in future, pay Ryanair prices

To pay that amount of money for seating that makes the latest 800 GWR units feel like The old Mk 1st class is real con trick
 

EssexGonzo

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This struck a chord with me.

Having flown BA short haul (mostly) economy for work between 2000 - 2015 and being 6'2", I was finding it increasingly uncomfortable with my knees touching the seat in front. A seat recline would hurt. I'm convinced that this got worse as newer aircraft were introduced.

Having recently reacquainted myself with Ryanair for leisure flights due to Easyjet cutting their schedules, I found that I could easily fit in their seats without touching those in front. The lack of magazine holders and reclining helps significantly. Added to which, Ryanair seem to have softened their rough edges in recent times as well as the other airlines dumbing down to match their baggage policies.
 

Bletchleyite

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This struck a chord with me.

Having flown BA short haul (mostly) economy for work between 2000 - 2015 and being 6'2", I was finding it increasingly uncomfortable with my knees touching the seat in front. A seat recline would hurt. I'm convinced that this got worse as newer aircraft were introduced.

Having recently reacquainted myself with Ryanair for leisure flights due to Easyjet cutting their schedules, I found that I could easily fit in their seats without touching those in front. The lack of magazine holders and reclining helps significantly. Added to which, Ryanair seem to have softened their rough edges in recent times as well as the other airlines dumbing down to match their baggage policies.

There's a trick with sleasyJet for legroom - on the 320s, book a seat in front of the exit row as the pitch is better, they crammed in an extra row behind the exit but one wouldn't fit in front. Other than the first few rows this doesn't attract an extra charge over that for generally picking a seat.

319s are about the same throughout I think.
 

Jamesrob637

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This struck a chord with me.

Having flown BA short haul (mostly) economy for work between 2000 - 2015 and being 6'2", I was finding it increasingly uncomfortable with my knees touching the seat in front. A seat recline would hurt. I'm convinced that this got worse as newer aircraft were introduced.

Having recently reacquainted myself with Ryanair for leisure flights due to Easyjet cutting their schedules, I found that I could easily fit in their seats without touching those in front. The lack of magazine holders and reclining helps significantly. Added to which, Ryanair seem to have softened their rough edges in recent times as well as the other airlines dumbing down to match their baggage policies.

I like both Sleazy and Ryan as their websites/apps are very user-friendly and let you know of hidden charges well before they may catch you out. Wizzair (whose acronym I can't say here!) have a little catching up to do!
 

gsnedders

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There's a trick with sleasyJet for legroom - on the 320s, book a seat in front of the exit row as the pitch is better, they crammed in an extra row behind the exit but one wouldn't fit in front. Other than the first few rows this doesn't attract an extra charge over that for generally picking a seat.

Same is true on the BA A320neos and A321neos, though additionally the ones from the exit row back are different (slimmer) design and don't recline. That said, I'm 1.80m and don't have any problem with sitting in them, unlike my last easyJet flight (where I was in front of the exit row!).
 
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