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Avantix replacement (previously: Arriva ditch Avantix)

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tsr

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SWT are using the Envoy system too, but with a Samsung Galaxy phone like with Star Mobile rather than a Tablet. I imagine it's a bit more portable.

It certainly would be. The tablets are a bit of a nuisance as they don't fit in any of the supplied belt pouches!

Out of interest, say for example ATW was won by Stagecoach and they wanted to change the printers to work with the existing smartphones, how doable is this and would the only real cost be that of the printers?

If the same software is in use then it may well be able to pair up with a variety of different printers over Bluetooth, but I don't know for sure.
 
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Haywain

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The main difference between the devices will be about overall size, and whether the users want to be able to put them in a pocket to carry them around. That's less likely with a tablet, which is why phones are usually used. As for the printers, I believe that the phone or tablet uses an app and connectivity to the printer is usually by Bluetooth, so the type of device has no impact.
 

tsr

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The main difference between the devices will be about overall size, and whether the users want to be able to put them in a pocket to carry them around. That's less likely with a tablet, which is why phones are usually used. As for the printers, I believe that the phone or tablet uses an app and connectivity to the printer is usually by Bluetooth, so the type of device has no impact.

Basically exactly what I meant in the last post! Apparently GTR meant to opt for phones at one point but tablets had to be brought in instead. Phones would be more practical. The tablets use two apps for roaming ticket sales - a launcher, which also controls access to settings, and a ticket selling app which needs to be paired with a specific printer. I'm not 100% sure which types are supported, but it does pick out specific devices for ticket selling, even if other unrelated devices are within range.
 

Haywain

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Basically exactly what I meant in the last post! Apparently GTR meant to opt for phones at one point but tablets had to be brought in instead. Phones would be more practical. The tablets use two apps for roaming ticket sales - a launcher, which also controls access to settings, and a ticket selling app which needs to be paired with a specific printer. I'm not 100% sure which types are supported, but it does pick out specific devices for ticket selling, even if other unrelated devices are within range.
I think we were both typing at the same time! On the VTEC DORIS service the printer is paired with the phone by Bluetooth and there has been no problem with other devices being nearby because the phone/app 'knows' which is the printer.
 

Blindtraveler

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With that in mind it is more than about time for a campaign to convince Arriva/DB companys to go over to CCST,.
 

island

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They have little incentive. PRT is so much cheaper and the amount of tickets they sell that need to be issued onto CCSTs is minuscule.
 

ANorthernGuard

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They have little incentive. PRT is so much cheaper and the amount of tickets they sell that need to be issued onto CCSTs is minuscule.

CCST's (With the strip) costs approx 1p per ticket and the size limits what can be stored on a QR code. One of the main reasons why a few TOC's have gone over to the new style tickets (which imho) will be fine when they get rid of the conditions of travel that is printed. The Mag Strip has seen its day long gone and Aztec/QR codes fit what people need for the foreseeable future. Now all we need to do is convince TfL lol
 

takno

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CCST's (With the strip) costs approx 1p per ticket and the size limits what can be stored on a QR code. One of the main reasons why a few TOC's have gone over to the new style tickets (which imho) will be fine when they get rid of the conditions of travel that is printed. The Mag Strip has seen its day long gone and Aztec/QR codes fit what people need for the foreseeable future. Now all we need to do is convince TfL lol

Again with the mag-stripe thing and the nonsense about how much info you can get onto a small QR code. Pretty much everyone on the thread has pointed out that they like the regular-shaped cardboard tickets irrespective of the mag stripe, and I've pointed out that you can easily get all the info you would ever need onto a QR code that would fit on a cardboard ticket.

The simple fact is that Northern thought they could get away with saving a couple of pence and pretending that they were being all futuristic. They made very much the wrong call, and now everybody else is making them look foolish.
 

bunnahabhain

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I had my first day using ATOS Envoy today and I'm pleasantly surprised having heard many negative reviews from staff on the pilot scheme. There are some negatives but for me they are all ergonomic and some are probably down to getting used to the new location of all the equipment. Personally I would prefer an almost like for like replacement of Avantix where the phone/tablet/PDA slots into the printer however this wasn't possible so the phone is separate. My solution so far is to hang the phone around my neck on a lanyard and attach the printer to an old Avantix bag strap, it works for me, as I use an old BR leather money satchel for my cash storage.

The CCST printer is very quick at printing, the only ticket that is slow is a credit card receipt, presumably because it's receiving and processing data externally at that point rather than internally as with tickets. I'd estimate the print speed is probably 3x faster than Avantix, and certainly card and cash transactions from beginning to end feel faster from the operator end.

The software itself is still being worked on and I've already made some suggestions to our trainer for things I feel should be improved upon. The tickets themselves print out in the new style layout and I'm not aware of any ticket types we cannot issue (beyond a 7 day season or a AAA ticket type).

Things I feel will irritate me... No mag swipe option (yet!) means I can't double check a dubious ticket to see if it's been through any barriers. Some ticket types require access via a bit of a back door to issue (Duo, Child season/Child only ticket types).

Things that might perhaps surprise passengers... If your card declines it's no longer our fault, it's your bank saying no. Apparently a huge number of people have been caught out by RPOs, where they have been travelling in cards associated with closed accounts etc for lengthy periods of time because their cards have been swiped/forced through. This is no longer possible and there's really only one reason your card will now decline.

Also, you can no longer excess a ticket for dubious reasons, no more Child to Adult, no more railcard to full fare. You excess from a ticket to a ticket, the machine forces the four rules and you cannot override it.

Thats my summary of it so far. I think it's a genuinely good bit of kit but to make it perfect if I could have it in an avantix case so I can rest it in my belly on a busy train, that would be it for me!
 
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LowLevel

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CCST's (With the strip) costs approx 1p per ticket and the size limits what can be stored on a QR code. One of the main reasons why a few TOC's have gone over to the new style tickets (which imho) will be fine when they get rid of the conditions of travel that is printed. The Mag Strip has seen its day long gone and Aztec/QR codes fit what people need for the foreseeable future. Now all we need to do is convince TfL lol

What you have currently is I am afraid junk. The passengers hate them, I hate them as a ticket inspector - they're the worst of all worlds. I've never heard a single positive comment about them but when I work through Northern land I have to field negative ones all the time. Even more so when they realise we still use 'proper tickets '.

They're a pain to store as they don't fit into ticket wallets of any accepted dimension - this makes them a total liability for 7 day seasons.

You have to repeatedly fold and unfold them. Period returns are inevitably produced in such a way that makes them time consuming to unravel and cancel.

Returns with receipts are so massive It's not even funny and don't get me started on Duos.

They're total rubbish.
 

BHXDMT

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What you have currently is I am afraid junk. The passengers hate them, I hate them as a ticket inspector - they're the worst of all worlds. I've never heard a single positive comment about them but when I work through Northern land I have to field negative ones all the time. Even more so when they realise we still use 'proper tickets '.

They're a pain to store as they don't fit into ticket wallets of any accepted dimension - this makes them a total liability for 7 day seasons.

They're total rubbish.

Likewise, every passenger I've spoken to hates them. They make checking tickets a pain in the backside because they need to be unravelled, they're hard to mark because they're so thin.

I've also encountered a few "7 Day Seasons" on PRT now and it's taken me a good few seconds to clock it's actually a season ticket. Especially when they fold them in imaginative ways to fit them in whatever holder they're using.

Our passengers were quite happy to hear we'd be sticking with CCST, and I'm glad too.
 
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Blindtraveler

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In a bit of support of
A Northern Guard
but not the PRT I do think that we have to innovate somehow but making pax fold up whacking great wadds of flimsy paper is just barmy and its also something Iv brought to the attention of various boddies representing visually impaired people as its currently not easy for those who can't see to twll whats a printout from Sainsburys and whats a Settle Carlisle Dayrover issued on the train because Edinburgh woant sell it and there was no time to buy it at Carlisle!

I dont have the answer to ticket innovation Im afraid but I was clearing out the side pcket of a holdall recently and discovered a huge long roll of folded PRT. I knew it was one this time as Id used that bag on a trip with someone else and had bought 2 Off Peek Returns on the train because the office was shut. 2 of these plus card transaction pluss Ts and Cs pluss the fact there was a railcard applied and part payment with an RTV led to a great wadd of this stuff which I took to my neighbour and got him to measure. He estimated 2.5m of it. Just how many forests are we cutting down to resource these? Or is this the railway suttly trying to keep itself viable with timber trains on at wrisk lines?
 

JaJaWa

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Can't the TOCs / RDG just manufacture an appriopiately sized ticket wallet?
 

ANorthernGuard

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Again with the mag-stripe thing and the nonsense about how much info you can get onto a small QR code. Pretty much everyone on the thread has pointed out that they like the regular-shaped cardboard tickets irrespective of the mag stripe, and I've pointed out that you can easily get all the info you would ever need onto a QR code that would fit on a cardboard ticket.

The simple fact is that Northern thought they could get away with saving a couple of pence and pretending that they were being all futuristic. They made very much the wrong call, and now everybody else is making them look foolish.

All Arriva own TOC's will be going over to this system. It started with ATW not Northern. This style of ticket is here to stay. Progress has been made with TfL to accept these style of Tickets. Once the scanners are operational we will be scanning the Aztec code anyway and thats all we will need to see. Once the update has finally been done the Conditions of Travel will be gone from the front reducing the ticket size by a third. For the people who use the machines different types of bags have been trialed with mixed results and faults like battery not lasting etc should be almost eliminated with the new sleds.
 

pompeyfan

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What version of Worldline envoy is everyone's roc running? I have to say the difference between v1 and V1.2, and now 1.2.something or other is outstanding. It's brilliant.

Couple of comments to make, passengers don't understand the difference why envoy users can't excess from railcard to no railcard, some see it as a backward step. Also, the increase of declined cards is causing altercations, where they then just take the attitude of can't pay won't pay.
 

bunnahabhain

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What version of Worldline envoy is everyone's roc running? I have to say the difference between v1 and V1.2, and now 1.2.something or other is outstanding. It's brilliant.

Couple of comments to make, passengers don't understand the difference why envoy users can't excess from railcard to no railcard, some see it as a backward step. Also, the increase of declined cards is causing altercations, where they then just take the attitude of can't pay won't pay.
It isn't a backward step because it shouldn't be done in the first place and has never been allowed. Any guard doing it is breaching the rules by "being helpful". The amount of people who say "but the guard excessed me last week" is irritating. If you can't remember your railcard, you shouldn't buy the discount, if you've genuinely done it once as a lapse of memory all TOCs will now refund the price of a full ticket as if you'd travelled with your railcard. So there's really no argument against a new ticket unless you don't hold a valid railcard anymore.

I've had one card decline three times but I suspected that was down to signal strength, I went back 5mins later and it went through. Previously I'd have forced acceptance on the Thyron which would have resulted in the company getting a charge back of £30.
 

sarahj

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I'm getting quite used to it now. The weak link is still the printer, jams, runs out of tickets with no warning and there is no red stripe, but mainly jams and half prints. It seems being bashed around as you walk through the train does not make it a happy bunny. I've had a printer fail right at the start of the day (first train) and never getting back to base, I was turning down tickets left right and centre, including a nice Seaford to Rochester, SVR, via London. We can sell 80 tickets per shift, so this is a loss to us. I'm sick of hearing the grinding noise when the ticket is trying to print.
Other issues. Lack of hands. We use a big tablet, so you have in your hand, a big tablet, then the credit card bit, and trying to tear a ticket off, aghhhhh.

And some excesses. The other day a punter wanted to extend their return trip back to Clapham Junction rather than East Croydon. So set the original trip, excess, return, but then it would only allow the original destination to be changed, in this case Falmer. I'd run out of time (only had mins), so nothing could be done. Had a practice later and changed the destination to Clapham, and a zero fare ticket printed, Clapham to East Croydon. No good. Kept playing around and a few prints later got a ticket to print that said East Croydon to Clapham junction. Never got one to say Falmer to Clapham junction which was, what was needed. By then I had logged 7 zero fares.<(
 
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bunnahabhain

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Over distance excesses can only be done on the Outward and return beyond the original destination, you can't issue a Derby to Crewe, and do an over distance to finish in Matlock. ATOC rules are that you buy a new ticket Derby to Matlock and Envoy forces that rule.
 

sarahj

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Over distance excesses can only be done on the Outward and return beyond the original destination, you can't issue a Derby to Crewe, and do an over distance to finish in Matlock. ATOC rules are that you buy a new ticket Derby to Matlock and Envoy forces that rule.

Right. We were taught that we could over distance on the return leg, thats why it had the options outward and return. The only time we could not was when the train had passed the original starting destination. Trouble is selling a new ticket for the excess trip from Croydon to Clapham was the punter was using a network card, which has a min fare of £13 (mon-Fri). The fare, ECR-FMR-ECR CDR with the card was £13.15. On the advatnix you would enter CLJ-FMR-CLJ. CDR, network discount, then excess, return, add the original price, mark as over distance, ticket no, and voila, one ticket would print, FMR-CLJ. You would void the original. Jobs a good 'un. It seems now that was not allowed. oh well.
 

pompeyfan

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I had similar in regards to excessing the return part of a ticket. Passenger had a return ticket from Emsworth to Guildford, but on the return journey, plans had changed and needed to go to Fratton. I had to charge for a ticket from Havant to Fratton which seemed unreasonable at the time.

I find the printers fine personally, not had many issues with ours, only issue is that currently the CCST stock is printed back to front, so the red stripe needs to be put in first, which means you don't know when you might run out of tickets.

In regards to poor phone signal, we get it quite frequently. We've been given the option to force the transaction if the phone signal is non existent (which is more than I realised on my routes)
 

bunnahabhain

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Right. We were taught that we could over distance on the return leg, thats why it had the options outward and return. The only time we could not was when the train had passed the original starting destination. Trouble is selling a new ticket for the excess trip from Croydon to Clapham was the punter was using a network card, which has a min fare of £13 (mon-Fri). The fare, ECR-FMR-ECR CDR with the card was £13.15. On the advatnix you would enter CLJ-FMR-CLJ. CDR, network discount, then excess, return, add the original price, mark as over distance, ticket no, and voila, one ticket would print, FMR-CLJ. You would void the original. Jobs a good 'un. It seems now that was not allowed. oh well.
Yeah unfortunately it can no longer be done, but my trainer told me it shouldn't have been allowed in the first place as it was never a permitted reason to excess.
 

Starmill

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Yeah unfortunately it can no longer be done, but my trainer told me it shouldn't have been allowed in the first place as it was never a permitted reason to excess.

This isn't hugely surprising; there is a grey area in the instructions that define an 'over-riding' excesses regarding 'travelling beyond the destination printed on the ticket'. Some people regarded that as being the place in the 'to' field on the return portion of a ticket, and some people didn't. As such, both "methodologies" were available and to be honest both were common, whatever some people said here. It may be that now there is an opportunity for software redesign, one particular view now holds more influence than the other, hence the change. There are similar 'fudge' excesses that sometimes happen for various reasons (e.g. excessing a ticket to a station somewhere on a parallel line, such as a passenger excessing a Manchester to Chinley into a Manchester to Chapel-en-le-Frith, or a Buxted to London into a Haywards Heath to London - I bet the new machine will not let you do that) even though they're not documented as permitted.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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CCST's (With the strip) costs approx 1p per ticket and the size limits what can be stored on a QR code. One of the main reasons why a few TOC's have gone over to the new style tickets (which imho) will be fine when they get rid of the conditions of travel that is printed. The Mag Strip has seen its day long gone and Aztec/QR codes fit what people need for the foreseeable future. Now all we need to do is convince TfL lol

The QR code fits what TOC management believe we all need for the foreseeable future maybe, the fact that many TOCs don't have any working QR readers kind of limits their usefulness right now and any change to QR readers, given that the vast majority of ticket barriers already accept smartcards, is just money down the drain.

Northern managers have already noted to staff that, apparently, one reason they chose the bigger tickets with QR codes was to get people used to scanning tickets before they introduce Smartcards. NEWS ALERT: Having a QR code makes no positive difference to the travel experience, infact everything is now "temporarily" harder, and many areas of the north now have Smartcards for the buses anyway! (including ENCTS passes)

Each time Northern Guards note the lack of ability to sell tickets with a cross London marker, even for journeys entirely north of London (which do not require use of LUL services, like Barnsley-St Albans '+via Chesterfield'), management come back with "it's not our fault, it's LUL who won't accept them" and "the other printers are too big, too slow and don't carry as many tickets as Avantix" (which is a joke given the apparent lack of capacity of the PRT!).

In fact the whole argument starts to fall to pieces when it gets noted that VTEC (and their predecessors) have been putting QR codes on CCST stock for years! Apparently we need bigger QR codes so that the TOCs can collect "marketing data" from travel patterns (so they can adjust prices to suit no doubt).

All Arriva own TOC's will be going over to this system. It started with ATW not Northern....

The trial was at ATW (though that does vary with who you ask), but lets face it, they were only seeing which systems managed to make the most money per ticket sold, without looking at any other aspects like lack of ability to sell certain tickets, or time taken to issue, or cost for upgrades to other systems, or practicality.

....This style of ticket is here to stay....

Sadly that is true, there is no budging on this one from above, we have to force LUL to accept a ticket that currently doesn't operate any of it's ticket barriers, or ours for that matter (presumably without any TOC incurring any charge as that would be wrong because "it's LUL's problem not ours").

.... Progress has been made with TfL to accept these style of Tickets....

Would have been better if they agreed it before rolling out the new stock, it's not like they haven't had time to do it, but as always it's reactive thinking when a money losing problem rears it's head.

.... Once the scanners are operational we will be scanning the Aztec code anyway and thats all we will need to see....

The scanners that no-one at Northern (or Arriva?) has? The ones they still need to fit or programme on the barriers? More money wasted while they try to de-staff trains to cut costs!

....Once the update has finally been done the Conditions of Travel will be gone from the front reducing the ticket size by a third....

Something they could have done long ago (infact I believe it was supposed to have been done already) if they weren't blind to what ticket stock they were going to use (they actually wanted plain white receipt roll, with management even trying to convince me of it being white when TPE had already started using the current stock!).

.... For the people who use the machines different types of bags have been trialed with mixed results and faults like battery not lasting etc should be almost eliminated with the new sleds.

Every aspect of this new ticket stock has been, and is still being, dealt with reactively rather than proactively. We are told the systems were trialled and had no problems (in an area that seems to vary depending on who you ask), we were told the slings were "tested extensively", yet problems that must have existed are still being "looked at" with "updates coming soon" because "we've known about it for a while".

Very few people outside of management actually wants this ticket stock, it's got to be costing more to use it than stay with CCST (and small QR codes) because of all the upgrades, lost revenue, new equipment and dealings with third party operators who won't accept them. PRT isn't the future, it's the past, most of us thought we'd left it behind a decade ago with Sportis, but I guess we forgot fashion is circular.
 

bunnahabhain

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This isn't hugely surprising; there is a grey area in the instructions that define an 'over-riding' excesses regarding 'travelling beyond the destination printed on the ticket'. Some people regarded that as being the place in the 'to' field on the return portion of a ticket, and some people didn't. As such, both "methodologies" were available and to be honest both were common, whatever some people said here. It may be that now there is an opportunity for software redesign, one particular view now holds more influence than the other, hence the change. There are similar 'fudge' excesses that sometimes happen for various reasons (e.g. excessing a ticket to a station somewhere on a parallel line, such as a passenger excessing a Manchester to Chinley into a Manchester to Chapel-en-le-Frith, or a Buxted to London into a Haywards Heath to London - I bet the new machine will not let you do that) even though they're not documented as permitted.
I've not tried an excess like that but I'll give it a go! I had to do a single to return excess earlier and it took me about five attempts as the process is a little bit convoluted.
 

CyrusWuff

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The QR code fits what TOC management believe we all need for the foreseeable future maybe, the fact that many TOCs don't have any working QR readers kind of limits their usefulness right now and any change to QR readers, given that the vast majority of ticket barriers already accept smartcards, is just money down the drain.

<pedant>Aztec code, not QR code</pedant>

Each time Northern Guards note the lack of ability to sell tickets with a cross London marker, even for journeys entirely north of London (which do not require use of LUL services, like Barnsley-St Albans '+via Chesterfield'), management come back with "it's not our fault, it's LUL who won't accept them" and "the other printers are too big, too slow and don't carry as many tickets as Avantix" (which is a joke given the apparent lack of capacity of the PRT!).

Our machines are configured such that it's not possible to sell a ticket involving LU/DLR services unless you've got a CCST printer. Options are to sell a ticket as far as you can, or give authority to travel without one, and get the passenger to exchange it at a Ticket Office.
 

Brucey

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Bought this ticket on-board a Greater Anglia train from a Great Northern RPI (transaction started whilst on the platform and we both intended to take the same train).

System was a tablet computer, very small (tiny) credit card reader and printer. All very impractical as there was too much equipment to hold in two hands. Fitted nicely into a rucksack, but the tablet is clearly too large to slip into a pocket. Since he is a RPI for GN, I assume they rarely sell tickets, but rather take details of fare evaders, in which case the larger tablet could be used to reduce paperwork without needing the other parts of the system.

I was very surprised when the ticket was printed on magnetic stock without a barcode, as I had assumed the new system would only print on rolls of paper. Very impressed with the clarity of the font (especially compared to some ticket machines).
 

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bunnahabhain

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That looks like the ATOS Worldline Envoy system. Its certainly in use on Stagecoach and Govia TOCs, the ticket software I believe can run on any Android based phone. Ours used a Samsung Galaxy S6 which is screwed into a heavy protective case so is much bulkier than my personal S6 (which itself is in a bulky case!).
 

pompeyfan

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That looks like the ATOS Worldline Envoy system. Its certainly in use on Stagecoach and Govia TOCs, the ticket software I believe can run on any Android based phone. Ours used a Samsung Galaxy S6 which is screwed into a heavy protective case so is much bulkier than my personal S6 (which itself is in a bulky case!).

So are ours. Seems like a stagecoach thing.
 
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