Avantix replacement (previously: Arriva ditch Avantix)

[plymothian]

considering GWR have deferred their replacement yet again, they'd better be!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

considering GWR have deferred their replacement yet again, they'd better be!

I believe that First Group may be considering other options now.

 

[323235]

So in summary which TOCs are using / going to use till roll tickets on board and who is printing / going to be printing on proper ticket stock?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Star is a very good system with so much potential. The main Problem is it is still buggy and obviously the ticket stock. With time most Bugs will be gone (The sooner the better) and ticket size will shrink. I do not get this fascination with 80s magnetic ticket stock that is not really fit for purpose on a modern railway. The new tickets hold so much more information with the AZTEC codes yes a lot of it is for other purposes (i.e. tracking peoples spending habits etc. etc.) but so many companies have ways of judging this. In the upcoming updates star will be able to not only read smartcards but top them up as well. give out live timetabling and platforming. Do advance tickets etc. etc So much more than Avantix. Avantix is not dead but its on Life support and when the bugs have been reduced Avantix will die.

 

[grumblingalong]

those at our depot all failed to self combust and die

They've been failing to do that for at least 8 years

 

[takno]

Star is a very good system with so much potential. The main Problem is it is still buggy and obviously the ticket stock. With time most Bugs will be gone (The sooner the better) and ticket size will shrink. I do not get this fascination with 80s magnetic ticket stock that is not really fit for purpose on a modern railway. The new tickets hold so much more information with the AZTEC codes yes a lot of it is for other purposes (i.e. tracking peoples spending habits etc. etc.) but so many companies have ways of judging this. In the upcoming updates star will be able to not only read smartcards but top them up as well. give out live timetabling and platforming. Do advance tickets etc. etc So much more than Avantix. Avantix is not dead but its on Life support and when the bugs have been reduced Avantix will die.

Ignoring for a second the usefulness of having the magnetic stripe on a railway system which has gates designed to read the stripe installed all over the country, I like having a ticket made of cardboard which has a little substance reflective of the often hundreds of pounds I've spent on it and doesn't just get lost in the pile of receipts in my pocket. I like it to fit in the various credit-card shaped holes I have in my wallet (specifically my railcard wallet, which I've always thought was a pretty nifty place to store my ticket). I don't care whether the barcode is Aztec or QR, and in fact I'd be amazed if even the people working on the respective standards care all that much either. I just want the stupid thing to fit on the credit-card sized cardboard ticket and not result in the human information being printed too small to read. Given that it only needs to store about 30 bytes of information (origin id, destination id at 2 bytes each, ticket type at around 2 bytes, routing is another maybe 2 bytes, date/time is 4 bytes, issuing machine/operator at 3-4 bytes, and signature at possibly 16 bytes.

I'm quite happy with the idea of providing a phone to train staff for the ticket issuing and having a separate printer, although I suspect that Star is actually taking a general-purpose machine that could run a range of information systems and turning it into a one-size fits none frankenmachine which will be every bit as expensive and limiting as Avantix in a couple of years, and I'd imagine that that was exactly what Fujitsu were planning for it in the first place.

I just really really don't get the obsession with getting rid of something that has worked for 30 years and replacing it with something which was tested by PORTIS 15 years ago and was widely hated. It's not like when they came to produce Avantix they went for cardboard tickets because they were *easier* to print than the cheap loo-roll things was it?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Ignoring for a second the usefulness of having the magnetic stripe on a railway system which has gates designed to read the stripe installed all over the country, I like having a ticket made of cardboard which has a little substance reflective of the often hundreds of pounds I've spent on it and doesn't just get lost in the pile of receipts in my pocket. I like it to fit in the various credit-card shaped holes I have in my wallet (specifically my railcard wallet, which I've always thought was a pretty nifty place to store my ticket). I don't care whether the barcode is Aztec or QR, and in fact I'd be amazed if even the people working on the respective standards care all that much either. I just want the stupid thing to fit on the credit-card sized cardboard ticket and not result in the human information being printed too small to read. Given that it only needs to store about 30 bytes of information (origin id, destination id at 2 bytes each, ticket type at around 2 bytes, routing is another maybe 2 bytes, date/time is 4 bytes, issuing machine/operator at 3-4 bytes, and signature at possibly 16 bytes.

I'm quite happy with the idea of providing a phone to train staff for the ticket issuing and having a separate printer, although I suspect that Star is actually taking a general-purpose machine that could run a range of information systems and turning it into a one-size fits none frankenmachine which will be every bit as expensive and limiting as Avantix in a couple of years, and I'd imagine that that was exactly what Fujitsu were planning for it in the first place.

I just really really don't get the obsession with getting rid of something that has worked for 30 years and replacing it with something which was tested by PORTIS 15 years ago and was widely hated. It's not like when they came to produce Avantix they went for cardboard tickets because they were *easier* to print than the cheap loo-roll things was it?

12 Years ago Sportis were issuing Thermal Roll albeit smaller or has everyone magically forgotten that?

 

[takno]

12 Years ago Sportis were issuing Thermal Roll albeit smaller or has everyone magically forgotten that?

Not only did I mention that, I capitalized the word PORTIS. Sportis was impressive in terms of what it could do with very the limited computing power available when it was produced, but the Thermal Roll printing which was the best it could manage at the time was widely recognized as rubbish, and was done away with as soon as better tech came along

 

[CyrusWuff]

12 Years ago Sportis were issuing Thermal Roll albeit smaller or has everyone magically forgotten that?

Also worth noting that Avantix had the option of printing on a thermal roll (standard PORTIS size one) as an alternative to magstripe, and retained that functionality with the hardware refresh in 2005/6.

 

[Blindtraveler]

So in theory all Star needs is the option to print onto Magstrip then?

I find the new rol a pain as it feels the same as any other piece of same which for a VI person is no good, another ill thought out of the system.

I bought a ticket from TPE on a 350 tother day and was glad it was a ticket not a bit of paper as when I got to journeys end I was able to seperate it from all the other squished bits of thermo rol in my pocket and keep it safe for delay repay which needs claiming on it.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Mag stripe and CCST orange tickets are yesterday's technology. The barcode on PRT can be used for so much more info.


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[cf111]

Mag stripe and CCST orange tickets are yesterday's technology. The barcode on PRT can be used for so much more info.


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What's to stop them being printed on card tickets? I had AZTEC codes on tickets I bought from East Coast back in 2013.

Attached image shows both portions of a 1st class return from Inverness to Glasgow Central or Queen Street on "credit card" ticket stock, an AZTEC barcode is in the top left-hand corner of both tickets.

ScotRail's new on-train ticketing system uses credit card ticket stock, so I imagine they'll be staying in "yesterday" for the foreseeable future.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Star is a very good system with so much potential. The main Problem is it is still buggy and obviously the ticket stock....

PRT isn't the future, it went out of fashion with SPORTIS and it should have stayed buried. It brings nothing new and is a waste of money that could be better spent on things that actually need dealing with.

....With time most Bugs will be gone (The sooner the better) and ticket size will shrink....

The PRT size might well shrink (by 1/3 from what I hear), but that'll still be more than twice the size of CCST and purely because they want the oversize AZTEC code on it, something that no frontline staff at Northern, nor any of their ticket barriers, can currently use, despite mtickets and etickets having contained the codes for a considerable amount of time already.

Ask Northern management about what the benefits of PRT are and all you will hear is barcode this and barcode that. CCST has worked for thirty years, it really didn't need this kind of "fix". It's a waste of resources.

....I do not get this fascination with 80s magnetic ticket stock that is not really fit for purpose on a modern railway....

Why replace something that works with something that doesn't? It's not a nostalgic 80s obsession, it's wanting things that work in everyday life, rather than on an accountant's, somewhat optimistic, spreadsheet.

....The new tickets hold so much more information with the AZTEC codes yes a lot of it is for other purposes (i.e. tracking peoples spending habits etc. etc.) but so many companies have ways of judging this....

How many working AZTEC readers has Northern got?

....In the upcoming updates star will be able to not only read smartcards but top them up as well. give out live timetabling and platforming....

Northern don't have any smartcards and live information is available via your new, company issued, smart phone.... Or any other smart phone come to think of it. I recall one of the big reasons for being given the smart phones was "live train information".

....Do advance tickets etc. etc....

Why would conductors, barrier staff or "revenue teams" need to do Advance tickets?

....So much more than Avantix. Avantix is not dead but its on Life support and when the bugs have been reduced Avantix will die.

It doesn't need to be "so much more than Avantix", it needs to do the job that is required of it, and right now it's failing miserably.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

PRT isn't the future, it went out of fashion with SPORTIS and it should have stayed buried. It brings nothing new and is a waste of money that could be better spent on things that actually need dealing with.



The PRT size might well shrink (by 1/3 from what I hear), but that'll still be more than twice the size of CCST and purely because they want the oversize AZTEC code on it, something that no frontline staff at Northern, nor any of their ticket barriers, can currently use, despite mtickets and etickets having contained the codes for a considerable amount of time already.

Ask Northern management about what the benefits of PRT are and all you will hear is barcode this and barcode that. CCST has worked for thirty years, it really didn't need this kind of "fix". It's a waste of resources.



Why replace something that works with something that doesn't? It's not a nostalgic 80s obsession, it's wanting things that work in everyday life, rather than on an accountant's, somewhat optimistic, spreadsheet.



How many working AZTEC readers has Northern got?



Northern don't have any smartcards and live information is available via your new, company issued, smart phone.... Or any other smart phone come to think of it. I recall one of the big reasons for being given the smart phones was "live train information".



Why would conductors, barrier staff or "revenue teams" need to do Advance tickets?



It doesn't need to be "so much more than Avantix", it needs to do the job that is required of it, and right now it's failing miserably.

So Basically lets not evolve and just keep with what is? Its been shown that the Railway is moving towards ticketless (as in paper form) travel. Ask any Guard/Revenue Inspector/Barrier staff Tickets are getting less and less and Tickets on Smart Devices are becoming more and more common. Will it eventually replace Paper Tickets? I doubt it but I have seen 1st hand a very large swing towards apps and its like. Avantix would never have the processing power for that kind of tech and something had to be done. Star at present is admittedly far from perfect but with updates etc. it will become significantly better. The old style Mag tickets are on there way out and paper style tickets will become the norm. Get used to it because it is coming and there is not much the average passenger can do about it.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Well if it is absolutely essential to issue huge kitchen towel roll sized tickets to people, can someone design and issue a new style ticket wallet that has a slot big enough for the tickets to be stored without the need to fold each individual ticket, and display the photocard?

The new style season tickets are an absolute pain as any method of folding seems unable to get it so the required information is on display in the wallet without taking it out.

It is perfectly possible to have a CCST on card which does not need to have a magstripe on the back - i.e. like T&W Metro or Manchester Metrolink. These tickets could be be cheaper than current mag stripe CCST (which seems to be the main justification for getting rid of them) and the Aztec code or whatever can be printed on the front of the card. It doesn't need to be huge - it isn't on print at home tickets, and they seem to work the gates that have readers quite OK.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I do not get this fascination with 80s magnetic ticket stock that is not really fit for purpose on a modern railway.

Tbh I think the only two valid complains that will require a lot more work to sort out are the size and durability. The tickets really do need to come back down to credit card size IMO, that is an ideal size for them and means they easily fit in wallets etc without being damaged. In terms of durability, I commented on this back before I got to use one of then new tickets but my views have not changed since using one, the new tickets are a step backwards in terms of how durable they are too (which is obvious, card is more durable than paper).

It isn't specifically the old stock was great, as you say the new systems make a whole host of improvements. The problem is they do so while at the same time making some things worse.

As for the Aztec or QR codes, I wonder if any studies have been done in terms of speed of going through gatelines with them compared to passing a normal ticket through.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So Basically lets not evolve and just keep with what is?....

No, I'm saying that someone should have opened their eyes, engaged their brain, and actually considered what was needed and where the future is taking them.

....Its been shown that the Railway is moving towards ticketless (as in paper form) travel. Ask any Guard/Revenue Inspector/Barrier staff Tickets are getting less and less and Tickets on Smart Devices are becoming more and more common....

So we spend money on introducing a new form of paper ticket that forces further investment in paper ticket technology.

....Avantix would never have the processing power for that kind of tech and something had to be done....

A new machine was being called for in many areas, but what was needed was a machine that was fit for purpose. STAR with PRT is far from that right now.

....Star at present is admittedly far from perfect but with updates etc. it will become significantly better....

STAR itself might become okay with a few upgrades, but PRT is a complete waste of money.

....The old style Mag tickets are on there way out and paper style tickets will become the norm. Get used to it because it is coming and there is not much the average passenger can do about it.

Then I fear the railway is going to throw away yet more money because of it's shortsightedness.

 

[WelshBluebird]

So Basically lets not evolve and just keep with what is? Its been shown that the Railway is moving towards ticketless (as in paper form) travel. Ask any Guard/Revenue Inspector/Barrier staff Tickets are getting less and less and Tickets on Smart Devices are becoming more and more common. Will it eventually replace Paper Tickets? I doubt it but I have seen 1st hand a very large swing towards apps and its like. Avantix would never have the processing power for that kind of tech and something had to be done. Star at present is admittedly far from perfect but with updates etc. it will become significantly better. The old style Mag tickets are on there way out and paper style tickets will become the norm. Get used to it because it is coming and there is not much the average passenger can do about it.

I guess the point that people are trying to make is why do you need to make crappy oversized paper tickets just to get those advantages? Why can't the new systems be developed, with all of the benefits, but print onto credit card sized card tickets? It doesn't have to be mag stripe or anything, I just don't see why we are going down a route that specifically takes steps backwards in some regards when surely someone, somewhere, must have though "oh we can have these benefits but keep similar tickets".

 

[island]

The main reason would be that a printer that can print on credit card stock and encode a magstripe will cost a fairly chunky multiple of the cost of one that just prints thermally on a roll.

 

[Haywain]

The main reason would be that a printer that can print on credit card stock and encode a magstripe will cost a fairly chunky multiple of the cost of one that just prints thermally on a roll.

And let's not forget that they are big, chunky and relatively heavy things that most guards would prefer not to have to lug around.

 

[takno]

And let's not forget that they are big, chunky and relatively heavy things that most guards would prefer not to have to lug around.

Avantix isn't exactly the leading edge in that respect. A lot of bulk comes from needlessly having the screen built in, and the continuous-feed ticket stock was pretty awful from day one.

If you're building for an era when the need for mag-stripe is reduced you can make the mag-stripe encoder a separate piece of kit - something about the size of https://squareup.com/shop/hardware/us/en/products/free-credit-card-reader would do the job, and would likely double as a credit card reader for as long as they are still useful. The screen can just tell the operator when the ticket needs a mag stripe encoded.

As to printing on card rather than paper, I'd be interested in how hard it is to add single-sheet-feed to the printer and giving the operator a pile of blank tickets, the way APTIS used to work. It seems like this wouldn't add massively to the workflow, and would enable you to print stuff like the receipt on paper rolls.

I'd like to believe that somebody has looked at these options and they just didn't work for reason, but to be honest I suspect they've just looked at Avantix as an expensive operational problem for them and tried to make those operational problems go away without really considering the customer experience at all.

 

[johntea]

So I actually got one of these new paper tickets myself the other day...absolutely ridiculous!

Please tell me the changes will make them resemble the mock up I made after I no longer required my ticket, within 5 minutes I managed to mock up a ticket easily half the size! (Some minor alterations to text placement would be needed but not much else!)

 

[ANorthernGuard]

So I actually got one of these new paper tickets myself the other day...absolutely ridiculous!

Please tell me the changes will make them resemble the mock up I made after I no longer required my ticket, within 5 minutes I managed to mock up a ticket easily half the size! (Some minor alterations to text placement would be needed but not much else!)

That will be the approx size (maybe slightly longer). Arriva will NOT change their stance though on the ticket type change. Mag Stripe is history as far as they are concerned.

 

[island]

A good start would be not issuing separate "coupons" outbound and return.

 

[gareth950]

My heart sank yesterday when the TVM at my local ATW station was out of order so I had to buy my 7-day ticket on the train.
When I asked the guard for a credit card sized ticket to go in my National Rail wallet with my photocard, of course I couldn't have one so I've now got an oversized, flimsy paper 7-day ticket for the next week that I have to be super careful not to rip and won't fit in my NR or any other wallet. I doubt very much a paper 7 day ticket would last more than a day if given to someone more careless.

Plus it takes AGES for the barriers to open after I've scanned it. :-x

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Starmobile is a joke. Not fit for purpose at all.

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious. These clowns who wanted it will no doubt be getting a pat on the back for their project, but when rumours abound that it has so far cost Northern in excess of £6,000,000, you wonder.

No doubt someone will pay for this farce, and I bet it isn't those who introduced it.

 

[plymothian]

I've heard GWR have postponed their introduction of STARMobile as they could be investigating a new custom built system.

 

[Haywain]

rumours abound that it has so far cost Northern in excess of £6,000,000, you wonder.

If it has cost that then shares in Fujitsu must be worth a punt. Developing a TIS is not cheap, but I doubt it's anywhere near enough to justify that sort of money to just one TOC, when they are several other signed up to the same system.

 

[philthetube]

Starmobile is a joke. Not fit for purpose at all.

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious. These clowns who wanted it will no doubt be getting a pat on the back for their project, but when rumours abound that it has so far cost Northern in excess of £6,000,000, you wonder.

No doubt someone will pay for this farce, and I bet it isn't those who introduced it.

Is £6.000.000 cost of the system or lost revenue? Seems a bit high for either.

 

[davetheguard]

I've heard GWR have postponed their introduction of STARMobile as they could be investigating a new custom built system.

That sounds like an understandable decision after what I've seen and read on here. The Guard on a Northern Beverley to Hull train I was on the other day said it was very slow. And passengers were laughing at the enormously long tickets it was issuing.

I'm old enough to remember "paytrain" Guards having Omniprinter machines which were very fast (particuarly if you knew the fares by heart). That was followed by (S)PORTIS, which was a bit slower but issued much better presented tickets. Then came the various privitisation-era systems that I've never used, but which seemed slower again, but had the enormous benefit of a magnetic stripe. So, all a gradual improvement in a way, despite the slower speed of issue.

Now there's this - slow, wasteful, and no magnetic stripe. I hope it's cheap; it certainly seems nasty!