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Avantix replacement (previously: Arriva ditch Avantix)

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Bletchleyite

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I would prefer we kept what we have, if people want to buy a short return then by all mean introduce them but with good ticket checks and barriers, abuse of Anytime Return's could be almost none, I think that any current level of abuse is only a result of lax ticketing measures.

Compostage (passenger's responsibility to stamp the ticket before boarding otherwise it has no validity) would wipe Anytime Return re-use out completely. I wonder why it was never considered?

(Even with overnight Break of Journey permitted, it would prevent re-use from the origin)
 
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Starmill

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Compostage (passenger's responsibility to stamp the ticket before boarding otherwise it has no validity) would wipe Anytime Return re-use out completely. I wonder why it was never considered?


Probably because it would be ridiculously expensive to implement! And create more questions than answers because as many posters like to remind us we are occasionally obliged to split.
 

158801

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Likewise I've always got my sharpie to hand when an Anytime Return gets printed out, just to scratch off the outward portion, although really any conductor worth their salt will notice an avantix printed ticket onboard the train being reused!

But how do you know it is an Avantix ticket issued on board or an Avantix ticket at a station by someone doing a ticket barrier?
 

crehld

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Compostage (passenger's responsibility to stamp the ticket before boarding otherwise it has no validity) would wipe Anytime Return re-use out completely. I wonder why it was never considered?

(Even with overnight Break of Journey permitted, it would prevent re-use from the origin)

You seem to have a fascination with this solution and you've suggested this several times but it will never happen. In addition to the cost pointed out by starmill, you also have to consider it's simply not part of the British railway psyche / culture. Validation machines have been in use in France since the 1970s (I think) and so are second nature to the French. It simply won't work here.
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PHP:

But how do you know it is an Avantix ticket issued on board or an Avantix ticket at a station by someone doing a ticket barrier?

Good question. I've also regularly seen staff with avantix machines standing next to ticket office windows in an attempt to reduce the queues!
 

Solent&Wessex

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That's the printing on the back of the ticket.

Oh right. Wasn't quite so easy to tell from the picture. Anyway, here is one with pre-printed stock which is similar to what the railways need.
 

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Solent&Wessex

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Good question. I've also regularly seen staff with avantix machines standing next to ticket office windows in an attempt to reduce the queues!

It's relatively easy actually. One gets to know which locations regularly have staff with Avantix on the platforms and at what times, and for those of us keen enough, one gets to recognise certain NLC codes on the tickets too. A quick glance of the details on the outward portion of an Avantix issued Anytime Return which you think is being reused, along with a question or two to the passenger normally assists.
 

Bletchleyite

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You seem to have a fascination with this solution and you've suggested this several times but it will never happen. In addition to the cost pointed out by starmill

The cost is not significant compared with the rollout of things like TVMs.

you also have to consider it's simply not part of the British railway psyche / culture

So you never change anything because "we don't do it that way here", basically? I despair.

Validation machines have been in use in France since the 1970s (I think) and so are second nature to the French. It simply won't work here.

What, like it (OK, an electronic version of it) "doesn't" work on TfL services and Edinburgh trams?
 

bunnahabhain

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PHP:

But how do you know it is an Avantix ticket issued on board or an Avantix ticket at a station by someone doing a ticket barrier?
You can usually narrow it down by location codes, if it's been issued by a Sheffield or Nottingham based machine 6hrs ago and you've just left Manchester and they're presenting an out ticket, then I'd be asking questions.
 

crehld

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The cost is not significant compared with the rollout of things like TVMs.



So you never change anything because "we don't do it that way here", basically? I despair.



What, like it (OK, an electronic version of it) "doesn't" work on TfL services and Edinburgh trams?

I'm pointing out why it won't work (and therefore address your question of why it was never considered), not why it can't be done (apologies for the ambiguity). There's an ideal world and there's the real world.

I'm of course open to change, but if I'm honest I'd much rather the railway industry invests its limited resources in properly combating fare evasion by conducting regular ticket checks on board and providing adequate facilities to purchase tickets in the first place, rather than waste their time and money installing needless validators which the majority of passengers are likely to simply ignore because they are not used to them. By way of illustration, you only have to look to many parts of the north to see how bypassing a fully functional TVM and buying on board is considered completely legitimate (and in some cases actively encouraged by TOCs).

It's worked with TfL because, for the most part, tickets are stored in an electronic format on a smartcard and the process of validation is intrinsically linked to a barrier line with automatic penalties applied where journeys are not sufficiently validated at both ends. So perhaps blanket smart ticketing in this fashion would achieve your desired outcome more effectively?

In the mean time (and another example of why 'compostage' a la France won't work in the UK) what's the point in putting validators at every station when TOCs can't be bothered ensure every station has adequate ticketing facilities? How does one validate a ticket before boarding which hasn't been able to purchased yet? We could say they should have ticket facilities at every station (which I'm a supporter of), but it's pretty clear this isn't the will of the railway industry in this country.
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Oh right. Wasn't quite so easy to tell from the picture. Anyway, here is one with pre-printed stock which is similar to what the railways need.

I was impressed with the tickets issued to me when I was in Switzerland last year. Thermal printed, had a hologram running up one side, a watermark and quite a complex background which obviously makes it very difficult to copy or forge. But, despite being regularly told of the cost of fare evasion and ticket fraud to the railway industry in this country, I'm guessing it isn't going to make the necessary investment.
 

CyrusWuff

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Oh right. Wasn't quite so easy to tell from the picture. Anyway, here is one with pre-printed stock which is similar to what the railways need.

Of course, the logical thing to do if they're insisting on issuing tickets with no magstripe, is to use SPORTIS rolls...but I'm informed that the STARmobile printers aren't compatible with same.

SPORTIS.jpg
 

Solent&Wessex

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News today is that FGW likely to have a mix of machines using card stock or paper rolls like Arriva, depending on location. TPE most likely to have paper rolls as the printers abd stock is cheaper. Told however that the plan is for orange roll stock "like the old sportis ones".
 

sheff1

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Validation machines have been in use in France since the 1970s (I think) and so are second nature to the French. It simply won't work here.

Validation machines are now second nature to people in the London area, even though they were introduced far more recently than the 1970s. Indeed, they are so much part of 'the way things are' that people travelling to St Albans or Potters Bar, for example, are astounded when there is no validation machine when they arrive ;)

Pensioners (often cited as the group most unwilling/unable to change) seem to cope easily enough with validation machines for their relatively recently introduced travel passes when using a wide range of UK buses or trams.


By way of illustration, you only have to look to many parts of the north to see how bypassing a fully functional TVM and buying on board is considered completely legitimate (and in some cases actively encouraged by TOCs).

The bit in brackets is the important bit there. If validation machines were the norm and anyone without a validated ticket or permit was not able to simply buy a normal ticket on board people would soon come into line (except of course the tiny minority who have no intention of paying, whatever).
 
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JaJaWa

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...it's simply not part of the British railway psyche / culture. Validation machines have been in use in France since the 1970s (I think) and so are second nature to the French. It simply won't work here.

Glad the French didn't have that view in 1970!
 

Starmill

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So you never change anything because "we don't do it that way here", basically? I despair.

If you're going to come up with a fully formed solution that demonstrates how the idea can be adapted for use here, identify the benefits and then identify all of the problems and state what mitigation you're going to use then we will see if that's cheaper than conventional TVMs. Furthermore I don't think it really negates the need for TVMs that entirely. The idea has some merits but it's hardly a magic bullet, so don't present it as one and if you're going to keep mentioning it it might be a good idea to do some of the legwork first.

News today is that FGW likely to have a mix of machines using card stock or paper rolls like Arriva, depending on location. TPE most likely to have paper rolls as the printers abd stock is cheaper. Told however that the plan is for orange roll stock "like the old sportis ones".

At least that will have some basic security features and less readily fade.

However it doesn't in the slightest solve the problem of crumpled or damaged tickets, or barrier use.

This is why the anytime short return would be a good idea for flows like Sheffield to Manchester / Manchester to Liverpool.

While you're right, the fact that apparently the best solution we have to such a problem is further complexity is concerning at best. More RPIs would be a preferable solution...
 
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tsr

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I noticed these tweets yesterday:

UK's ATOC Rail Settlement Plan is to introduce a standard for issuing barcode tickets on standard thermal receipt paper #TTGlobal
@railwaygazette
https://twitter.com/railwaygazette/status/691969114752073729

"We are excited about mobile barcode" Steve Howes MD, Rail Settlement Plan, ATOC #TTGlobal
@Masabi_com
https://twitter.com/Masabi_com/status/691969881189806080

What it means in practice that these things are being said and tweeted now, or if it makes a difference to the implementation of what is being discussed in this thread, is another matter entirely. I would have thought that at least there would be some sort of guidelines from ATOC/RSP on the printing and usage of receipt roll tickets by now. Hopefully this will also put an end to the Gatwick-London (inc. Thameslink route) receipt roll tickets printed by airlines and sold on planes, which are frankly pretty unclear and make life unnecessarily difficult.
 

WelshBluebird

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Not very surprising to anyone here, it looks like this has now been delayed for a bit.
The ATW page now says "Soon" instead of "Mid January" for the trial and "Summer 2016" instead of "March 2016" for the replacement of Avantix nationwide.

New page: http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/barcodetickets/
Old page: http://www.webcitation.org/query?id=1453655791695502&date=%400&fromform=1

There didn't seem to be any evidence of new readers at Cardiff Central (or any potential work being readied) when I was there 2 days ago either.
 

BHXDMT

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Not very surprising to anyone here, it looks like this has now been delayed for a bit.
The ATW page now says "Soon" instead of "Mid January" for the trial and "Summer 2016" instead of "March 2016" for the replacement of Avantix nationwide.

New page: http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/barcodetickets/
Old page: http://www.webcitation.org/query?id=1453655791695502&date=%400&fromform=1

There didn't seem to be any evidence of new readers at Cardiff Central (or any potential work being readied) when I was there 2 days ago either.

Goodness, the barcode ticket emanating from that mans stomach is huge. Try fitting one of those in your wallet!
 

RPI

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Confirmation yesterday that the GWR avantix replacement is on time, won't be paper tickets either, will print onto Star stock
 

Daz28

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A colleague of mine told me that it went live today in Greater Anglia, they were selling tickets at Clacton on sea.
 
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Well, I got trained on the new Fujitsu machines we're getting in Anglia recently. Rollout should be complete in time for the end of Avantix towards the end of this month.

Much as prophesied on the forum really, a Samsung smart device contained within a battery pack which also contains a barcode/qr scanner along with a separate thermal roll printer (receipts and soon tickets), a "proper" ticket printer and a separate card reader.

Orange ticket stock will be a thing of the past in Anglia soon, once the software is updated all local fares will be on thermal paper with only tickets involving Underground travel printed on Orange stock (issues with TfL being reluctant to move to scanning barriers alongside the rest of the country).

Seems a good device with good steps up from Avantix, ticket restrictions are now much easier for the user to navigate.

Early signs are good. We shall see how it all pans out.
 

TheEdge

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A colleague of mine told me that it went live today in Greater Anglia, they were selling tickets at Clacton on sea.

Clacton depot is the pilot depot. All being well Anglia should be Avantix free by the end of the month.

Like grumblingalong I've been trained up on it now and it is a decent bit of kit, a vast improvement on Avantix and I'm looking forward to trying to out in anger. Also claims it might be able to accept Apple Pay and other similar NFC based payments.
 

Starmill

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Clacton depot is the pilot depot. All being well Anglia should be Avantix free by the end of the month.

Like grumblingalong I've been trained up on it now and it is a decent bit of kit, a vast improvement on Avantix and I'm looking forward to trying to out in anger. Also claims it might be able to accept Apple Pay and other similar NFC based payments.

Have things gone well at Abellio Greater Anglia? :)
 
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Have things gone well at Abellio Greater Anglia? :)

Nope.

Still on Avantix, cards were taking 6 minutes + to process so the machines were held back while I believe a software fix was arranged. Hearing grumblings (:D) of a roll out towards the end of this month.
 

sarahj

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Nope.

Still on Avantix, cards were taking 6 minutes + to process so the machines were held back while I believe a software fix was arranged. Hearing grumblings (:D) of a roll out towards the end of this month.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::roll::roll:
You would have thought stuff like that would have been tested before handing it out to folks on trains. I wonder how they cope in the rain?
 

Haywain

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There are some things that will only be tested properly in a real world environment. And in the end, if the testing is done by those who will ultimately use the kit, they will have more confidence in it.
 

Starmill

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Enough confidence to suggest that the roll-out will be complete in a matter of weeks, and here we are two months after the suggested deadline without much to show for it? :P
 

Bletchleyite

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Orange ticket stock will be a thing of the past in Anglia soon, once the software is updated all local fares will be on thermal paper with only tickets involving Underground travel printed on Orange stock (issues with TfL being reluctant to move to scanning barriers alongside the rest of the country).

This is possibly because barcode barriers are slower as some people aren't very good at lining the barcode up to scan - that isn't as much of a problem away from London.

I would in the long term expect TfL to move away from magstripe ticketing, though, in favour of Oyster/contactless/single-use Oyster[1] only.

[1] I mean contactless cards containing a Day Travelcard or similar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Nope.

Still on Avantix, cards were taking 6 minutes + to process so the machines were held back while I believe a software fix was arranged. Hearing grumblings (:D) of a roll out towards the end of this month.

One would hope that they would incorporate contactless for <£30 fares, and that that, because it typically doesn't authorise, would be near instant.
 

swt_passenger

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I would in the long term expect TfL to move away from magstripe ticketing, though, in favour of Oyster/contactless/single-use Oyster[1] only.

That'll be brilliant for long distance National Rail 'cross London' tickets then, or don't they matter in your new electronic world ?
 

Haywain

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Enough confidence to suggest that the roll-out will be complete in a matter of weeks, and here we are two months after the suggested deadline without much to show for it? :P
I was talking about user confidence when the Avantix replacement is rolled out, not confidence in when. However, it's worth noting that the currently (almost) universal Avantix effectively became obsolete at about the end of March - I'm not aware of any TOC that has a replacement in operation yet, and that takes into account a number of different suppliers. It's obviously not the easiest thing to get up and running.
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That'll be brilliant for long distance National Rail 'cross London' tickets then, or don't they matter in your new electronic world ?
A solution will have to be found, and I don't think anyone has suggested that it isn't important but I think that the number of such tickets sold by Avantix now is a small proportion of the overall total. And, by the way, cross-London tickets are not just relevant to long distance journeys - there are probably more sold for what might be regarded as local journeys in the London area.
 

mattdickinson

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That'll be brilliant for long distance National Rail 'cross London' tickets then, or don't they matter in your new electronic world ?

I would expect TfL to fit bar code scanners to at least some gates on each gateline where there is a National Rail interchange for this reason.
 
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