Avantix Mobile

[DelayRepay]

"Electronic use only" cards are not accepted on-board.

The problem here is that now they're all classed as Visa, it's not easy to know which type of card one has. The banks certainly don't make it clear or obvious that they've given you anything other than a normal Visa debit card.

If someone had boarded at an unstaffed station and their only method of payment was an "electronic use only" Visa card, I think you would be hard pressed to do anything if you refused to accept it, because they have offered an acceptable form of tender (all the posters I have seen have just shown the Visa logo, and not made any distinction about the type of Visa card).

 

[WillPS]

"Visa Electron" cards are still in circulation. These are noticeable by their lack of embossed letters (when these were launched, this was to stop them being used in old fashioned manual credit card carbon copiers). Halifax are the main issuer of these, but the Co-op and Barclays are also still issuing.

I don't think the railways have a case to not accept Visa Debit cards. I have not seen a "Visa Debit" card that is sanctioned "Electronic Use Only" as Electrons are.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

There are very few Visa Electron cards around now, most having been replaced by Visa Debit cards without embossed letters. This is actually better than Electron as although they are always declined on the chip and pin device, they will work if swiped and then an authorisation code is gained via the automated system. If someone does have an Electron card only, I adopt the same approach as Flamingo, although generally only hand them over to station staff as a last resort, most of the station staff up north are not interested in revenue at all and will just let them go telling them not to do it again.

Pre-Pay cards are funny. They never used to work at all, but recently I have been able to swipe them and get an authorisation code. I even had one work on the Chip and Pin device the other day that I was astonished about.

Cheques are not accepted at all.

Nowadays, generally speaking, with the exception of Electron cards, every other card type will work one way or the other.

One further point - just because a card does not have embossed printing does not mean it will not work at all, it just means you have to take a slightly more long winded process.

 

[bnm]

"Visa Electron" cards are still in circulation. These are noticeable by their lack of embossed letters (when these were launched, this was to stop them being used in old fashioned manual credit card carbon copiers). Halifax are the main issuer of these, but the Co-op and Barclays are also still issuing.

New Visa Electrons are not still being issued by Co-operative Bank or Barclays, they've both migrated to Visa Debit. Halifax and Bank of Scotland are the only remaining UK banks still issuing Electron.

 

[island]

Halifax and Bank of Scotland are the only remaining UK banks still issuing Electron.

And Bank of Scotland is going to stop very shortly.

Visa Electron and Diners cards are not required to be accepted by TOCs, although at least some accept them at booking offices. However, most Diners cards are now co-branded MasterCard.

 

[bb21]

I don't think the railways have a case to not accept Visa Debit cards. I have not seen a "Visa Debit" card that is sanctioned "Electronic Use Only" as Electrons are.

Here's an example for you.

 

[Flamingo]

Electron cards can't get on-board authorisation. If the card is "electronic use only", then I do an UPFN if boarding at an unmanned / no TVM station, and words of advice.

If I get the same individual on a regular basis, then I suspect they are kicking the arrse out of it, then I kick them off at the next manned station and I have been known to do a report to BTP.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Here's an example for you.

That card will work if swiped, and then an authorisation code obtained via HSBC Merchant Services automated system. I see these quite a bit and they do work. I always get them to put their pin in to check that they know it and it is correct. Once the pin is accepted then the Avantix will decline it. Then I swipe it and phone up for a code. Most passengers don't seem to be expecting this!

 

[Flamingo]

That card will work if swiped, and then an authorisation code obtained via HSBC Merchant Services automated system. I see these quite a bit and they do work. I always get them to put their pin in to check that they know it and it is correct. Once the pin is accepted then the Avantix will decline it. Then I swipe it and phone up for a code. Most passengers don't seem to be expecting this!

Me too.

 

[WillPS]

The thing is, I've not seen anything that officially tells anybody they can't use certain Visa Debit cards on board. I remember reading at an unmanned Central/EMT station words to the effect of Visa Electron and Solo cannot be used for payment on board.

Fair enough, but expecting customers to know if theirs is a specific type of Visa card is a bit extreme. Hardware modding Avantix is not the only answer - could they not add an "other payment" option to the list of tenders then have a Sagem-mobile payment unit instead of those Diore things?

 

[island]

The thing is, I've not seen anything that officially tells anybody they can't use certain Visa Debit cards on board. I remember reading at an unmanned Central/EMT station words to the effect of Visa Electron and Solo cannot be used for payment on board.

That's because there isn't any such thing The card scheme rules of Visa Electron require online authorization (and prohibit manual referrals, by the way, which is why you can't even phone through to authorize it). Other cards which won't work in offline situations might be marked "electronic use only" (although how a customer is meant to know exactly what that means I leave to the philosophers), or they might not.

Fair enough, but expecting customers to know if theirs is a specific type of Visa card is a bit extreme. Hardware modding Avantix is not the only answer - could they not add an "other payment" option to the list of tenders then have a Sagem-mobile payment unit instead of those Diore things?

It's all cost/benefit analysis isn't it? Because of PCI-DSS and stringent security requirements, Chip & PIN terminals are quite expensive, and if every guard is to be equipped with one, that's a non-trivial cost for the benefit of being able to accept not-very-many additional cards.

The real question which would be a fun one to find out is what happens in Scotland if someone is UPFNed (etc.) for presenting a card from an accepted scheme that the guard is not able to process. Scots law says that sellers of goods and services must accept any reasonable method of payment (this is why Aldi and Lidl accept credit cards in Scotland but not England/Wales). So if the customer tenders a reasonable method of payment, but the guard (on behalf of FSR) can't accept it, where does that leave things?

 

[2Dogbox]

Here's an example for you.

I have one of these cards for my main current account and I asked in the bank why i'd been given an electron card and I was told it wasn't it was just for electronic use only..... Have had these on the train and my avantix has accepted them through chip and pin no problem, and have also had them declined. Most odd.

EMT machines love to decline green Lloyds TSB cards. I'd say about 25% of transactions I do decline, this then results in me having the barriers get the booking office to do them a ticket on STAR (which usually always goes through) or if its obviously dodgy an UFN. We still use offline chip and pin but they are apparently getting us online ones soon when agreed.

 

[CarterUSM]

That's because there isn't any such thing The card scheme rules of Visa Electron require online authorization (and prohibit manual referrals, by the way, which is why you can't even phone through to authorize it). Other cards which won't work in offline situations might be marked "electronic use only" (although how a customer is meant to know exactly what that means I leave to the philosophers), or they might not.



It's all cost/benefit analysis isn't it? Because of PCI-DSS and stringent security requirements, Chip & PIN terminals are quite expensive, and if every guard is to be equipped with one, that's a non-trivial cost for the benefit of being able to accept not-very-many additional cards.

The real question which would be a fun one to find out is what happens in Scotland if someone is UPFNed (etc.) for presenting a card from an accepted scheme that the guard is not able to process. Scots law says that sellers of goods and services must accept any reasonable method of payment (this is why Aldi and Lidl accept credit cards in Scotland but not England/Wales). So if the customer tenders a reasonable method of payment, but the guard (on behalf of FSR) can't accept it, where does that leave things?

Officially, we are told to take a passengers name and address , fill out a TI report and advise them they will be billed for the journey undertaken. Admin fee of 10 pounds or so is waived.

 

[swt_passenger]

The thing is, I've not seen anything that officially tells anybody they can't use certain Visa Debit cards on board. I remember reading at an unmanned Central/EMT station words to the effect of Visa Electron and Solo cannot be used for payment on board.

Surely it is the responsibility of the bank to tell their customer that they have not being provided with a fully usable card - and to give them a list of circumstances where the card cannot be used?

 

[ian13]

Surely it is the responsibility of the bank to tell their customer that they have not being provided with a fully usable card - and to give them a list of circumstances where the card cannot be used?

If a retailer/TOC is happy to display the 'Visa' logo with no subnote on what type of Visa - why should customers be penalised for not knowing obscure technicalities?

(As an aside, I've had a couple of rather unimpressed guards after handing over a US Visa card with no chip.

It's an issue faced by Maestro users abroad - quite a lot of merchants with a Maestro logo can only accept domestic cards.)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Surely it is the responsibility of the bank to tell their customer that they have not being provided with a fully usable card - and to give them a list of circumstances where the card cannot be used?

If (as happens with alarming regularity) the Banks CHANGE a Term or Condition, then yes, that change must be notified and the customer will have the opportunity to decline.
However, when first entering into the Contract, the issuing Bank is required only to provide a Copy of the T&Cs and that copy is likely to have the restrictions either buried in the detail or simply omitted if its a facility which that card doesn't offer (in the same way that the T&Cs of a Card which does not offer Airmiles simply wouldn't mention Airmiles).

BTW. It was the phrase "responsibility of the bank" that motivated me to respond - nothing to do with the Railways!

 

[185]

Dave, did you seriously just put the words 'banks' and 'responsibility' in the same sentence?!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Dave, did you seriously just put the words 'banks' and 'responsibility' in the same sentence?!

Do you think I might have any success in a career as a fiction writer?

 

[island]

It's an issue faced by Maestro users abroad - quite a lot of merchants with a Maestro logo can only accept domestic cards.)

That's because of ... limitations in the Maestro scheme, caused by trying to meld together a load of domestic schemes (e.g. Switch here, Laser in Ireland, Carte Bleue in France, EC in Germany) with sellotape and chewing-gum.