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Avantix-Chip And Pin Woe

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Rhondda Rudie

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We've had chip and pin handsets on ATW for about 18 months now.The are a nightmare on valley routes (station every 3 minutes,90-100 stops per diagram).After the morning peak I would estimate that only about 60% of cards go through without being declined.It then takes a ridiculous amount of time to complete the transaction manually.

At a recent team brief we were told the company was concerned that surveys indicated passenger numbers had risen but revenue had fallen and were after reasons why.The guards present just laughed out loud.One reason only-Chip and Pin.
 
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Tim R-T-C

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One option would be to make payments for under £5 not possible with a card (or add a 30p charge - from working in a shop you would be amazed how many people will suddenly find cash to avoid this).

Would need to put up posters for a while before hand on platforms/trains to avoid people being able to use it as an excuse.
 

156441

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Contact less technology would save time with those punters who had the cards. All purchases under £15 take less than 10 secs to process! Other than that faster machines.

The 30p under a fiver thing drives me insane and screams 'cheap' to me as it seems like the shop are just trying to get the customer to pay the bank charge!
 

Rhondda Rudie

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When the cards go through ok the process is quick enough.Certain cards are not valid for use offline but you can't tell that by looking at them.Identical looking cards often go through clean as a whistle.
 

embers25

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I realise you were being sarcastic but solar power in Wales!!! It's almost as rainy as Manchester!!
 

Nym

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When the cards go through ok the process is quick enough.Certain cards are not valid for use offline but you can't tell that by looking at them.Identical looking cards often go through clean as a whistle.

Generally:

Solo, Visa Electron, Mastercard Prepaid, Visa Prepaid, Switch Meastro cards issued to under 18s are online only.

Visa, Visa Credit, Mastercard, Maestro UK, Maestro EU, Amex UK, Amex US, and Diners Club will work offline, provided the customer has the minimum applicable funds available last time they used the card online (the chip stores an auth / no auth code for offline)

The likes of Discover, MovCal, etc. It's anyone's guess...
 

WillPS

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Generally:

Solo, Visa Electron, Mastercard Prepaid, Visa Prepaid, Switch Meastro cards issued to under 18s are online only.

Visa, Visa Credit, Mastercard, Maestro UK, Maestro EU, Amex UK, Amex US, and Diners Club will work offline, provided the customer has the minimum applicable funds available last time they used the card online (the chip stores an auth / no auth code for offline)

The likes of Discover, MovCal, etc. It's anyone's guess...

Visa Debit cards are regularly issued to under 18s now that the Electron system is being phased out - these aren't always "online only" ones either.

Maestro is only for over 18s, and the brand is being phased out in the UK in favour of Mastercard Debit.

Solo was phased out last year.
 

Harlesden

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The 30p under a fiver thing drives me insane and screams 'cheap' to me as it seems like the shop are just trying to get the customer to pay the bank charge!

Why should a small shop owner lose a portion of his profit in bank charges simply because someone chooses not to carry cash for small purchases?
If the banks want a cashless society, they should give small businesses the same free transactions they give chain stores and supermarkets.
 

SWT_USER

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Why should a small shop owner lose a portion of his profit in bank charges simply because someone chooses not to carry cash for small purchases?
If the banks want a cashless society, they should give small businesses the same free transactions they give chain stores and supermarkets.

That's the way society is going now. It would be a backwards step for any company to start charging for card use - especially as most machines don't seem to accept cash.
 

michael769

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Why should a small shop owner lose a portion of his profit in bank charges simply because someone chooses not to carry cash for small purchases?

Those same businesses also have to pay high cash handling charges and cheque processing fees - so no matter what method of payment is used the bank gets a cut.

The claims by retailers that cards cost them money is a smokescreen to justify ripping off consumers or poor customer service.
 

IanXC

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Why should a small shop owner lose a portion of his profit in bank charges simply because someone chooses not to carry cash for small purchases?
If the banks want a cashless society, they should give small businesses the same free transactions they give chain stores and supermarkets.

What always seems to be forgotten in this situation is that a small business also faces costs in cash handling; insurance for holding cash on site, time spent counting and banking, risk of staff theft, bank charges and so on.

The current card processing arrangements make sense for retailers usually processing £10+, contactless card payments will have a different set up to encourage their widespread usage.

 

ChrisCooper

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The problem is that you start charging for transactions under £5 on cards, or even not allowing them, and next things it's moaning because everyone only has £5 notes (which are the smallest most cash machines give out) and guards have to carry loads of change around or run out of change. Either that or that people are giving their small change which is heavy and taking ages to count.
 

Zoe

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Maestro is only for over 18s, and the brand is being phased out in the UK in favour of Mastercard Debit.
The bank I was with would issue a Switch (later rebranded to Maestro) card to 16 year olds if they paid a certain amount into the account each month. The UK Maestro scheme though until recently was not part of the International Maestro so that may well explain why it's for over 18s only now.
 
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2Dogbox

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22 Mar 2011
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Lincoln
We've had chip and pin handsets on ATW for about 18 months now.The are a nightmare on valley routes (station every 3 minutes,90-100 stops per diagram).After the morning peak I would estimate that only about 60% of cards go through without being declined.It then takes a ridiculous amount of time to complete the transaction manually.

At a recent team brief we were told the company was concerned that surveys indicated passenger numbers had risen but revenue had fallen and were after reasons why.The guards present just laughed out loud.One reason only-Chip and Pin.

Are your chip and pin handsets the new Thyron bluetooth ones or are you still using Magic ones?

At EMT we are still using magic and the decline rate is about 30% , the worst culprits are the Lloyds TSB green debit cards which hardly ever accept. Other culprits are the Santander 'electronic use only' which wont work anywhere offline. Our company is very vague about swiping, I never would have swiped if a card declined but I have recently done a few when it has clearly been a regular passenger who has used the card successfully the day before.

It's a bit of an embarrassment to be honest.
 

Rhondda Rudie

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17 Jan 2011
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Rhondda Valley
Are your chip and pin handsets the new Thyron bluetooth ones or are you still using Magic ones?

At EMT we are still using magic and the decline rate is about 30% , the worst culprits are the Lloyds TSB green debit cards which hardly ever accept. Other culprits are the Santander 'electronic use only' which wont work anywhere offline. Our company is very vague about swiping, I never would have swiped if a card declined but I have recently done a few when it has clearly been a regular passenger who has used the card successfully the day before.

It's a bit of an embarrassment to be honest.

We are using Thyron.During peak time hardly any cards are declined but after the peak they are a nightmare.To swipe the card we are supposed to phone for an authorisation code but we can skip that if we manually type the card number and expiry date in.My main complaint is that there is usually nothing on the card front saying whether it can be used offline.With the type of diagrams we work serving one such passenger takes up all the time between two stations.This means that more passengers are getting off without paying resulting either in revenue being lost or passengers being inconvenienced by long queues at ticket barriers.
 

route:oxford

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It always makes me laugh when people promote taking cash instead of taking cards because it is "cheaper".

When you start handling a great deal of cash, you need to re-install heavy duty safes, dual controlled cash handling back at depot, and arrange security pick-ups. Actually banking the cash is expensive too. On average, the security companies charge £12 for collecting/delivering a sack of coin. So a £20 sack of 1 penny pieces would cost you £32.00 delivered.

Also, there is the issue of safety of the on-train staff.

Technically, someone with an existing season ticket could buy an annual on-train with cash when boarding at an unstaffed station.

Would anyone be happy with a few annual season tickets worth of cash in their bum-bag for the day?
 

Greenback

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Also, there is the issue of safety of the on-train staff.

Technically, someone with an existing season ticket could buy an annual on-train with cash when boarding at an unstaffed station.

Would anyone be happy with a few annual season tickets worth of cash in their bum-bag for the day?

Only weekly season tickets can be sold on train.
 

170401

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Technically, someone with an existing season ticket could buy an annual on-train with cash when boarding at an unstaffed station.

Would anyone be happy with a few annual season tickets worth of cash in their bum-bag for the day?


Chance would be a fine thing (if it were allowed)! Think of the commission!
 

BestWestern

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At EMT we are still using magic and the decline rate is about 30% , the worst culprits are the Lloyds TSB green debit cards which hardly ever accept. Other culprits are the Santander 'electronic use only' which wont work anywhere offline. Our company is very vague about swiping, I never would have swiped if a card declined but I have recently done a few when it has clearly been a regular passenger who has used the card successfully the day before.

It's a bit of an embarrassment to be honest.

You're right, it is shameful that an organisation as substantial and significant as the UK railway system cannot get its act together on something as vital as revenue collection. But then again we all know that revenue is treated as something of an irrelevance by most TOC's anyway, the profit comes from the taxpayer :roll: :|

Your comments about EMT being vague on swiping are surprising. My TOC is the same, but your sister firm SWT are very specific, they MUST phone for authorisation before swiping any cards, must be a nightmare!
 

island

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0036
Franchise specifications prohibit card surcharges. Small shops and supermarkets all pay card processing fees (they might be a little higher for small shops, who therefore can't absorb them).

Certain cards have what is called "mandatory positive authorization required" flags stored on the chip, stripe, or both. (If you see "application ID" or "AID" A0000032010 on a card receipt, then you have such a card.) These cards might be marked "Electronic use only", or "Visa Electron", or have the numbers printed flat onto the card rather than embossed, or none of the above. Cards with this feature may only be accepted when, before processing the transaction, the merchant has obtained positive authorization from the bank that the cardholder has sufficient funds/limit available to cover the transaction. The usual way of doing this when one is not on a train is for the card terminal to automatically contact the merchant's acquiring bank which will send a request through to the cardholder's bank confirming there are funds available. This can't happen with Avantix Mobile machines as they are not connected to anything. Therefore, such cards will automatically decline.

Because sometimes the mandatory positive authorization flag is stored on the chip and not the stripe, sometimes cards will work when swiped but not when chip-read. For this and other reasons, you are not allowed to swipe a chip card unless you get specific phone authorization to do so and a six-digit code. If you do anyway, the bank is likely to reverse the payment and charge the TOC an admin fee.

None of this will vary by the equipment used, as the setting is stored on the card and the Thyron, Gemalto, and Dionne apparatus should all work exactly the same.

Lloyds TSB green Visa debit cards present a particular problem. Lloyds offers an add-on to its current accounts called "Control" costing £10 a month, in return for which it will guarantee that you will never ever be charged any unauthorized overdraft fees. If you have the add-on, a transaction that takes you below £0 (or your limit) will not work: any direct debits or standing orders will fail, cheques will bounce, and debit card transactions will be declined. Because offline debit card transactions might take you over your limit unexpectedly, they set the cards to reject them as default. However, this add-on can be added or removed by phoning up, and the debit card will not be replaced. To allow for this, they have to issue all debit cards with this restriction already in place. Hopefully that clarifies why Lloyds TSB cards present a problem. Bank of Scotland started to issue these cards in September as well.

Back in the day merchants used to get what is called a "floor limit", whereby their bank would guarantee payment of up to a certain amount (£100 perhaps) for any credit card transaction, even if the accountholder was over the limit. Floor limits started to get phased out in 2001 and now it is mainly only airlines that have them. (Restaurants, hotels, and car hire firms have a variant on floor limits whereby they will still get paid up to 20% more than the amount they authorize to allow for customers leaving tips, having incidental spend, or causing damage respectively.)

As to what TOCs can do about this, installing more TVMs will be a start!
 

First class

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Franchise specifications prohibit card surcharges.

In terms of in-person sales that is generally correct. They can add whatever they want online though! I believe only Merseyrail do though at the moment.
 

route:oxford

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Hopefully that clarifies why Lloyds TSB cards present a problem. Bank of Scotland started to issue these cards in September as well.

BoS became part of the Lloyds Banking Group a few years back. BoS (and Halifax) accounts were migrated from the better TD01 (or superb wCBS) system to the old TSB rCBS system during the year.
 

2Dogbox

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You're right, it is shameful that an organisation as substantial and significant as the UK railway system cannot get its act together on something as vital as revenue collection. But then again we all know that revenue is treated as something of an irrelevance by most TOC's anyway, the profit comes from the taxpayer :roll: :|

Your comments about EMT being vague on swiping are surprising. My TOC is the same, but your sister firm SWT are very specific, they MUST phone for authorisation before swiping any cards, must be a nightmare!

Ours are not like SWT then! About a year ago we all had an email which said if the card declined we should swipe as it was loosing the company too much revenue not accepting all cards. Two months later we get told not to swipe at any costs. Now whenever we ask we don't get a clear answer on what to do.

Today I swiped every card as the chip and pin machine didn't even work!

It is indeed a shame the train companies can't get this sorted. I can't imagine large organisations such as the supermarkets and oil companies handling their payment methods in such a haphazard way!
 
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