Avanti's serial cancellations of last trains

[D1537]

So this isn't about outdated attitudes but traincrew sticking to their agreed terms and conditions for the benefit of safety!

I don't think anyone is asking Avanti to ask staff to work over their hours. But it would be very helpful if they could ensure someone is rostered for the last trains on major routes, even if it means dropping a few trains earlier in the day.

A group of four friends of mine are going to a gig in London tonight. Normally they would drive to their nearest station in Rugby and use Avanti, but tonight they're driving to Northampton and using LN, because the last EUS-WVH is cancelled. When they find out that it's cheaper *and* the returns run later, they probably won't use Avanti again.

 

[A0]

I'm sure it's easy enough to cherry pick a few articles claiming things are bad abroad. No doubt you would have found much the same in the press here before Covid.

But have you got anything to suggest that railways abroad are still running just half of the pre-Covid timetable, which is the situation many people here find themselves in (if not worse)?

Or, as in Avanti's case over the last few months, that they are cancelling around a third of services even on said heavily reduced timetable?

It's also easy to cherry pick a single day to use as your example of an endemic problem.......

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2022 ==

I don't think anyone is asking Avanti to ask staff to work over their hours. But it would be very helpful if they could ensure someone is rostered for the last trains on major routes, even if it means dropping a few trains earlier in the day.

A group of four friends of mine are going to a gig in London tonight. Normally they would drive to their nearest station in Rugby and use Avanti, but tonight they're driving to Northampton and using LN, because the last EUS-WVH is cancelled. When they find out that it's cheaper *and* the returns run later, they probably won't use Avanti again.

Yes but 4 people on a Pendolino isn't a compelling reason to run it. Arguably far better - from the railway's perspective - that they use the capacity on a late LNW train to Northampton.

 

[Watershed]

It's also easy to cherry pick a single day to use as your example of an endemic problem.......

This has been going on for months!

 

[Domh245]

But if the last trains aren’t covered why would any of the earlier crews agree to come off roster & cover them when working to rule. This is the whole point of it. There is no ‘good will’ when a dispute is in place.

Who said anything about coming off-roster? The point that's being made is that the roster should be drawn up and turns allocated such that the last trains of the day will always be covered.

 

[dk1]

Who said anything about coming off-roster? The point that's being made is that the roster should be drawn up and turns allocated such that the last trains of the day will always be covered.

That isn’t how traincrew rostering works.

 

[Agent_Squash]

It's also easy to cherry pick a single day to use as your example of an endemic problem.......

This.

I’ve just arrived into Florence (which is one of the railways that apparently shines, and also conveniently run by a company associated with Avanti) and more than half of the trains are delayed.

Indeed, the board is looking a lot more disrupted than I’ve ever seen it at Lancaster…

Foreign railways aren’t the example of perfection that they are made out to be on these forums at times.

 

[317 forever]

Dare I say it, did the move from Virgin to First impact on the ‘prestige’ of the job?

Lots of staff were ‘proud’ to be part of Virgin, at least publicly. Not seen the same under Avanti.

A colleague from a previous job of mine got a job at the station with Virgin Trains and I occasionally saw him on my day trips. As I haven't seen him for a few years, I wonder whether he left when Avanti took up the franchise.

 

[The Prisoner]

I do feel Avanti are benefitting from the lack of competition on the WCML. They are holding slots for trains they are not running and are doing the absolute bare minimum with the DfT's approval under these new management contracts. If only Grand Central hadn't been tripped over by covid.

It's not just the consistent cancelling of last trains - cancellations during the day leave huge service gaps with no foresight to plug the gaps at stations like Penrith, Oxenholme or Crewe by stopping alternative services in place of the ones pulled. There is no acceptance by Avanti that anyone is travelling to and from anywhere but London.

All the optimism of the days under VT has completely evaporated under Avanti's hugely unreliable stewardship. Sure VT was pre-covid, but Avanti give me no cause to feel that the service will be usable or reliable for years to come.

 

[D1537]

Yes but 4 people on a Pendolino isn't a compelling reason to run it. Arguably far better - from the railway's perspective - that they use the capacity on a late LNW train to Northampton.

The 2324 (2330 on a weekday) can be quite busy, especially when there's a big sport or music event on. Also, the LN trains only go to Northampton, so pax for Rugby/Cov/Brum/Wolves will have to be conveyed by road transport anyway at expense to Avanti.

And of course if people turn up for a last train and it's cancelled, and end up getting home hours late, they may simply decide not to use the train at all next time.

 

[express93]

Who said anything about coming off-roster? The point that's being made is that the roster should be drawn up and turns allocated such that the last trains of the day will always be covered.

Easier said than done. The base roster will run for approx 5-6 months at a time. When it comes to the weekly roster and the daily sheets if there are turns uncovered due to either annual leave or sickness (or any other plausible reason) and there’s no spare coverage and no-one is willing to help out then there’s little you can do.

 

[CBlue]

I do feel Avanti are benefitting from the lack of competition on the WCML. They are holding slots for trains they are not running and are doing the absolute bare minimum with the DfT's approval under these new management contracts. If only Grand Central hadn't been tripped over by covid.

It's not just the consistent cancelling of last trains - cancellations during the day leave huge service gaps with no foresight to plug the gaps at stations like Penrith, Oxenholme or Crewe by stopping alternative services in place of the ones pulled. There is no acceptance by Avanti that anyone is travelling to and from anywhere but London.

All the optimism of the days under VT has completely evaporated under Avanti's hugely unreliable stewardship. Sure VT was pre-covid, but Avanti give me no cause to feel that the service will be usable or reliable for years to come.

Competition by introducing another operator like grand Central wouldn't stop last trains of the day being cancelled - if anything it would make things worse by putting even less slack in pathing, and likely reducing the available pool of traincrew even further as staff jump ship.

 

[dk1]

Easier said than done. The base roster will run for approx 5-6 months at a time. When it comes to the weekly roster and the daily sheets if there are turns uncovered due to either annual leave or sickness (or any other plausible reason) and there’s no spare coverage and no-one is willing to help out then there’s little you can do.

This is what so many on here do not seem to grasp. Some of the comments are quite excruciating to read.

 

[317 forever]

I have just had a look at Chiltern, and so far all services out of Marylebone are running this morning as planned.

Looking at the live departures board for Euston, the only cancellations are for Avanti.

Last night at Crewe there was at least 1 cancellation of an LNW train and a Northern train (the one I'd have caught). On an unrelated note a train from Cardiff to Manchester was running 40 minutes late and was announced as being terminated at Wilmslow as a result.

 

[mandub]

The DfT aren't bothered about cancellations. Until they are nothing will happen on Avanti or any other TOC's.

You have to suspect they are deliberately trying to push people away from rail travel at this point.

 

[express93]

This is what so many on here do not seem to grasp. Some of the comments are quite excruciating to read.

This 100%.
It’s why I joined the forum - some of the comments make my mind boggle.

 

[All Line Rover]

but 4 people on a Pendolino isn't a compelling reason to run it. Arguably far better - from the railway's perspective - that they use the capacity on a late LNW train to Northampton.

Some of these arguments are so appalling (and clearly not being made by passengers) that if they are reflective of a general attitude from the top down of "*k passengers", there's one thing I would be willing to lobby for - remove all taxpayer funding from the railway.

If the service gets so bad that I no longer wish to (or can) use it, why should my taxes be funding this ****show? Let the industry fend for itself.

 

[Howardh]

The DfT aren't bothered about cancellations. Until they are nothing will happen on Avanti or any other TOC's.

You have to suspect they are deliberately trying to push people away from rail travel at this point.

The cynical side of me suggests if the government push people on to the road they take more in tax, so they can make a big income tax cut using that extra income just before the next election by complete coincidence.


What green issues??

 

[317 forever]

There's this little event on. Something to do with the Royal Family I believe?

Oh yes, so maybe there was skiving so staff could watch the concert?

I found out at short notice that buses in London would have a Saturday service on Friday. Leaving aside the cost of amending my Saturday rail booking, I passed up the idea because I wanted to allow for staff who wanted time off for the Thanksgiving service.

What it amounts to was that I did want to feel I was requiring people to sacrifice a royal event to work just for the sake of my transport hobby. It stood more on Friday for being a royal Bank Holiday compared to an "ordinary" day yesterday.

 

[All Line Rover]

Easier said than done. The base roster will run for approx 5-6 months at a time. When it comes to the weekly roster and the daily sheets if there are turns uncovered due to either annual leave or sickness (or any other plausible reason) and there’s no spare coverage and no-one is willing to help out then there’s little you can do.

I'm reading that as "If the guard rostered for the last service of the day goes on long term sick, tough titties for the passengers. Not the rail industry's problem."

 

[Domh245]

Easier said than done. The base roster will run for approx 5-6 months at a time. When it comes to the weekly roster and the daily sheets if there are turns uncovered due to either annual leave or sickness (or any other plausible reason) and there’s no spare coverage and no-one is willing to help out then there’s little you can do.

Thanks for the explanation of why it wouldn't be a quick or particularly easy solution. It does seem like something of a missed opportunity though with previous rosters, and certainly seems like something that should be looked into going forward particularly if staff shortages aren't going away.

When there is a rostering system in place designed to prevent last trains going uncovered, then you start making sure those turns don't keep getting skived..

 

[mandub]

Has nothing to do with being inconvenient and everything to do with an essential service shutting down. Hospitals aren't allowed to shut under a strike, nor is any other "essential" service, so why should the railway be any different.


If it was just one or two operators yes, and obviously they should be going to the negotiating table regardless. When it's on such a large scale the public interest needs to be put first, or people will quit travelling by train en masse for good.

The cynical side of me suggests if the government push people on to the road they take more in tax, so they can make a big income tax cut using that extra income just before the next election by complete coincidence.


What green issues??

I just think they (via The Treasury) don't believe in public funding of the railway beyond a certain level.
Some other nations governments do believe in it, ours doesn't. It's an ideology, a choice.
Hence all the talk of railways on life support etc.
They will try to let it wither and close bits down piece by piece. Hopefully growing passenger numbers and local stakeholder opposition thwarts them.....

 

[All Line Rover]

Are Sundays particularly affected by "work to rule" on Avanti?

 

[AlterEgo]

I've heard avanti have asked / paid other tocs to run there services to save cancellation fine, it's interesting if its actually true. Its can help fudge there performance figures.

Got any examples of this?

 

[express93]

Are Sundays particularly affected by "work to rule" on Avanti?

As far as I’m aware no official “work to rule” has been put in place yet. It’s simply a combination of a shortage in certain grades and people deciding they don’t want to work their rest days (that’s not to say people aren’t working their RDs as they are, just not as much as before).

 

[jayah]

This has been done to death on this forum before. There's no amount of HR policies that can make someone do a shift/rest day/ annual leave swap with someone they don't wish to , there's no amount of HR policies that can make someone speak to a colleague they don't want to (outside of what's required in the JD) , there's no amount of HR policies that can make someone offer to cover the back end of someone's job so they can get an early finish .

Anyone that works in the industry will know that it's the little things above that can make the job a slightly easier place to work.

It's not a single location job where you are sat next to the person for 8 hours of the day and can be construed to have "ostracized" them by ignoring them . You can go weeks or months without seeing someone .

If it it went to a grievance and subsequently a tribunal you will find that where a protected characteristic is involved, very large compensation will result.

Employers won't tolerate this behaviour for a reason and you are well advised to read up on the rules before attempting to put any of these ideas into practice.

It seems to easiest way to avoid these 'bully boy' tactics is to not be in the union, then you cannot strike even if you wanted to.

 

[jamesst]

I'm reading that as "If the guard rostered for the last service of the day goes on long term sick, tough titties for the passengers. Not the rail industry's problem."

Which is easy to do when you want it to read like that.

Take my toc. The base roster has over 100 lines of work. Jobs being on trains (known running jobs) , vsp turns, spare turns and standby turns.
A guard for example who is long term sick would of have his entire line of work covered by either the spare or vsp turns.
Other issues can come up meaning booked traincrew won't be in eg sickness, family issues, compassionate leave etc- these will be covered by any remaining spare turns.
Once there's no spare turns left to cover a job you're down to standby turns or people willing to work there rest day.
Once these run out your cancellations kick in.

People on these forums will hate this little fact but resourcing try every single thing they can to cover jobs. Once there's no staff left there's very little they can do.

 

[AlterEgo]

If it it went to a grievance and subsequently a tribunal you will find that where a protected characteristic is involved, very large compensation will result.

Where an employee won’t speak to another employee because they don’t like them? Not a chance. You can only take your employer to court.

Employers won't tolerate this behaviour for a reason and you are well advised to read up on the rules before attempting to put any of these ideas into practice.

You should try working on a railway. This is common.

It seems to easiest way to avoid these 'bully boy' tactics is to not be in the union, then you cannot strike even if you wanted to.

You do not need to be in a union to go on a lawful strike.

 

[ComUtoR]

When there is a rostering system in place designed to prevent last trains going uncovered, then you start making sure those turns don't keep getting skived..

The problem is that you need to balance cover for turns that could go uncovered with having excess staff sitting around doing nothing.
Paying staff to "do nothing". Is how the TOC sees it. Far better to run the roster to the absolute minimum and rely on someone doing overtime.

 

[Merseysider]

Was about to post the same thing!

Just a snapshot of tomorrow

05/06/22 11:15 Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston due 13:25 will be cancelled.
This is due to a member of train crew being unavailable.

05/06/22 11:35 Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston due 13:45 will be cancelled.
This is due to a member of train crew being unavailable

05/06/22 11:55 Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston due 14:09 will be cancelled.
This is due to a member of train crew being unavailable.

And the 1035 too.

The 1215, which actually ran, was the first train in 2 hours and looked full and standing before even getting to Stockport, where there was a busy platform of passengers waiting.

Coming back, the 1717, 1817, 1917, 1937, 2035 and 2135 are already showing as cancelled from London tonight.

And surprise surprise, the last London - Birmingham has been cancelled too, at 2324.

I wonder how long it’ll be before someone complains to the local rag...

 

[43066]

Because if they don't they just might all find themselves on the sharp end of government cuts.

We keep being told those are happening anyway! It seems like ”but cuts” is now the standard response on here to any aspect of the railway’s operation or culture which people on here dislike.

There are all manner of contemporary HR policies that would sweep this away.

Very few modern employers would tolerate ostracising other employees, as per it belongs in the 1980s.

As I (and others) have pointed out on here HR aren’t going to force people to make small talk or swap shifts with colleagues they prefer not to. Or do you raise a grievance at your employer everyone someone looks at you in a way you don’t like, or doesn’t reciprocate when you talk to them??

It’s odd that people seem so bothered by the possibility of this happening and don’t see any issue with people stabbing their colleagues in the back.