Avanti West Coast services calling at Northampton (Post HS2)

[221101 Voyager]

The 20mph is irrelevant though as all trains have that issue.

I get what you mean, I’m just saying that a 390 takes a lot longer than a 350 to accelerate that’s all.

 

[Merle Haggard]

In terms of serving it it certainly has higher travel demand and will get higher still. It's also helpfully on the mainline.

Puzzled by how the demand for direct inter-city trains from Northampton can be assessed when there's none at the moment.

 

[cr767055]

'' Northampton is the county town of Northamptonshire and is one of the largest settlements in the UK not classed as a city. ''

I'm aware Northampton is a town, but that is the case for many large towns e.g Reading and Milton Keynes, and look at their ridiculously frequent Intercity services (especially Reading.)

Northampton is even referred to as a city in many Government documents

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Oct 2020 ==

Puzzled by how the demand for direct inter-city trains from Northampton can be assessed when there's none at the moment.

They are referring to existing London Northwestern Railway services with high demand, I think.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Puzzled by how the demand for direct inter-city trains from Northampton can be assessed when there's none at the moment.

I mean how much demand was there pre-covid. There was probably a minimal demand and now there is nothing no doubt.

I'm aware Northampton is a town, but that is the case for many large towns e.g Reading and Milton Keynes, and look at their ridiculously frequent Intercity services (especially Reading.)

Northampton is even referred to as a city in many Government documents

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Oct 2020 ==



They are referring to existing London Northwestern Railway services with high demand, I think.

MK and Reading are very different to Northampton. MK and Reading are big well served IC stations where demand is there. However, Northampton is a little isloated on a 'branch' of sorts on it's own and thats probably why a regular IC service probably won't be a thing there.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I cannot for the life of me find the documentation that came out with the post-HS2 Phase 1 services on the WCML and ECML. I am relatively sure Northampton did get an hourly 390-type service that was going somewhere quite far to the north?

 

[JonathanH]

I cannot for the life of me find the documentation that came out with the post-HS2 Phase 1 services on the WCML and ECML. I am relatively sure Northampton did get an hourly 390-type service that was going somewhere quite far to the north?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/879445/full-business-case-hs2-phase-one.pdf

No plan for an ICWC service via Northampton on the map on page 26, the four remaining services all go via Weedon.

 

[221101 Voyager]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/879445/full-business-case-hs2-phase-one.pdf

No plan for an ICWC service via Northampton on the map on page 26, the four remaining services all go via Weedon.

" Speed improvements in Northampton, Preston and Lancaster"

It's about time Northampton was remodelled to untangle it a little and allow trough traffic such as freight to go through a little faster perhaps as from what I see it is a bit of a bottleneck at the moment.

All trains on the approach to Northampton go slow for ages before arriving into the station which takes up time. The same goes for freight.

 

[JonathanH]

" Speed improvements in Northampton, Preston and Lancaster"

It's about time Northampton was remodelled to untangle it a little and allow trough traffic such as freight to go through a little faster perhaps as from what I see it is a bit of a bottleneck at the moment.

All trains on the approach to Northampton go slow for ages before arriving into the station which takes up time. The same goes for freight.

Yes, but I think you would have to remove the rather sharp curve into the station. As you say, the approach to the station from the South is somewhat tedious. Can the platforms be moved eastwards?

 

[221101 Voyager]

Yes, but I think you would have to remove the rather sharp curve into the station. As you say, the approach to the station from the South is somewhat tedious. Can the platforms be moved eastwards?

Yes the curve and compact space of the station is a big problem.

Based on the satellite image, there would need to be major changes to allow faster running. Such as knocking buildings down and realgining the tracks and the entire station. I think this station and the lines will always be a big bottleneck, I can't see any changes happening any time soon.

 

[The Planner]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/879445/full-business-case-hs2-phase-one.pdf

No plan for an ICWC service via Northampton on the map on page 26, the four remaining services all go via Weedon.

That service spec will change several times I have no doubt. Northampton gets effectively two fasts in the peak and a semi fast off peak.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Oct 2020 ==

Yes the curve and compact space of the station is a big problem.

Based on the satellite image, there would need to be major changes to allow faster running. Such as knocking buildings down and realgining the tracks and the entire station. I think this station and the lines will always be a big bottleneck, I can't see any changes happening any time soon.

Leave the station as it is and realign the southern approach using the space afforded by the old Brackmills branch. Id bet that the S&C is a limiting factor as it is.

 

[221101 Voyager]

That service spec will change several times I have no doubt. Northampton gets effectively two fasts in the peak and a semi fast off peak.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Oct 2020 ==


Leave the station as it is and realign the southern approach using the space afforded by the old Brackmills branch. Id bet that the S&C is a limiting factor as it is.

Which part is the brackmills branch?

 

[The Planner]

Which part is the brackmills branch?

The two knackered bridges to the right.

 

[221101 Voyager]

The two knackered bridges to the right.

Ah, I thought that was were you was referring to.

My plan would go something like this, a much more gentle curve.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Yes, but I think you would have to remove the rather sharp curve into the station. As you say, the approach to the station from the South is somewhat tedious. Can the platforms be moved eastwards?

The original route to London was via Duston N/W jctns and Blisworth on a staright alignment. The 'New Line' with its sharp exit was built in 1884.
It is perhaps surprising, in the following 136 years, that all the subsequent route modernisations have overlooked this bottleneck - although a start was made on electrifying and re-signalling the Blisworth route as part of electrification.

The River Nene was diverted when the station was built, but there's still a river crossing immediately South of the station, and the road overbridge at the South end of the station is also a restriction. It carries a very busy road, and, perhaps illogically, the roadway was doubled in width (probably at the request of the Borough Council) but the original bridge holes were retained. There's also a river bridge and busy road overbridge at the North end. Finding an alignment was clearly difficult when the line was built and involved demolishing the Norman Northampton Castle . Of course, it's more difficult nowadays to provide a better alignment. The route north of this bridge was widened over time, though, with 7 tracks Northwards, reducing to 5 and 4 at Kingsthorpe.

The recently built station (to replace the one constructed at the time of electrification which was based on an Atcost prefabricated barn) cost either £40,000,000 or £60,000,000 (depending upon source), had the usual opening delays and it would be unfortunate if it was in the way of any re-alignment.

The LNWR and LMS regarded Northampton as an important freight centre, and accordingly no priority was given to passenger services. This continued into B.R. days, the Harborough line lost its passenger service because of the heavy volume of coal trains and the need to path banking engines light back from Kelmarsh summit to Harboro', not because of lack of demand.

 

[221101 Voyager]

The original route to London was via Duston N/W jctns and Blisworth on a staright alignment. The 'New Line' with its sharp exit was built in 1884.
It is perhaps surprising, in the following 136 years, that all the subsequent route modernisations have overlooked this bottleneck - although a start was made on electrifying and re-signalling the Blisworth route as part of electrification.

The River Nene was diverted when the station was built, but there's still a river crossing immediately South of the station, and the road overbridge at the South end of the station is also a restriction. It carries a very busy road, and, perhaps illogically, the roadway was doubled in width (probably at the request of the Borough Council) but the original bridge holes were retained. There's also a river bridge and busy road overbridge at the North end. Finding an alignment was clearly difficult when the line was built and involved demolishing the Norman Northampton Castle . Of course, it's more difficult nowadays to provide a better alignment. The route north of this bridge was widened over time, though, with 7 tracks Northwards, reducing to 5 and 4 at Kingsthorpe.

The recently built station (to replace the one constructed at the time of electrification which was based on an Atcost prefabricated barn) cost either £40,000,000 or £60,000,000 (depending upon source), had the usual opening delays and it would be unfortunate if it was in the way of any re-alignment.

The LNWR and LMS regarded Northampton as an important freight centre, and accordingly no priority was given to passenger services. This continued into B.R. days, the Harborough line lost its passenger service because of the heavy volume of coal trains and the need to path banking engines light back from Kelmarsh summit to Harboro', not because of lack of demand.

Interesting.

I can't believe such a big bottleneck has lasted so long.

I often see on open train times maps how much of a bottleneck Northampton is and it is a big yet nonetheless unresolved issue. On a side, I hope they reopen the line to Wellingborough.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Interesting.

I can't believe such a big bottleneck has lasted so long.

Indeed.

The West Coast Route Modernisation cost £8,000,000,000 or £9,000,000,000 (depending on source) and, as far as I can see, the amount spent at Northampton was (approximately, to the nearest £1,000,000) £0.00p.
But the good property tax payers here stumped up £20,000,000 (or was it £30,000,000?) towards the new station. If anyone thought that this would result in service improvements they were, sadly, disappointed. But probably why a now hard-up council introduced a charge for emptying brown bins.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Indeed.

The West Coast Route Modernisation cost £8,000,000,000 or £9,000,000,000 (depending on source) and, as far as I can see, the amount spent at Northampton was (approximately, to the nearest £1,000,000) £0.00p.
But the good property tax payers here stumped up £20,000,000 (or was it £30,000,000?) towards the new station. If anyone thought that this would result in service improvements they were, sadly, disappointed. But probably why a now hard-up council introduced a charge for emptying brown bins.

£8 Billion and Northampton only got £1 Million?

The layout is a major reason IMO that more services don't stop there as the slow speed limits and the bottleneck of the place makes planners just think oh forget it it's on essentially a big branch, just run services on the mainline at higher speeds and anyone who wants any other services from Northampton will need to use MKC or Rugby instead.

 

[Ianno87]

£8 Billion and Northampton only got £1 Million?

The layout is a major reason IMO that more services don't stop there as the slow speed limits and the bottleneck of the place makes planners just think oh forget it it's on essentially a big branch, just run services on the mainline at higher speeds and anyone who wants any other services from Northampton will need to use MKC or Rugby instead.

Nothing to do with the layout.

Everything to do with serving Northampton adding 20 minutes to the journey time of everybody not going to or from Northampton (compared to, say, 4 minutes to serve Milton Keynes).

 

[221101 Voyager]

Nothing to do with the layout.

Everything to do with serving Northampton adding 20 minutes to the journey time of everybody not going to or from Northampton (compared to, say, 4 minutes to serve Milton Keynes).

The fact it adds 20 mins to the journey doesn't help it's case for an InterCity or express service does it and that's my point.

 

[Ianno87]

The fact it adds 20 mins to the journey doesn't help it's case for an InterCity or express service does it and that's my point.

OK, so if some line speed improvements got that down to 18 minutes... Just sorting the local station area - given you're stopping anyway, is not going to make that much of a difference.

Nothing will change the Northampton loop being 2 miles further in distance and having a generally lower line speed than via Weedon, plus the time needed for the stop at Northampton.

 

[221101 Voyager]

OK, so if some line speed improvements got that down to 18 minutes... Just sorting the local station area - given you're stopping anyway, is not going to make that much of a difference.

Nothing will change the Northampton loop being 2 miles further in distance and having a generally lower line speed than via Weedon, plus the time needed for the stop at Northampton.

I think that, even if line speed was better, Northampton having a regular IC service is just unfeasible as the extra traffic on the slows would probably be too much traffic anyway.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Nothing will change the Northampton loop being 2 miles further in distance and having a generally lower line speed than via Weedon, plus the time needed for the stop at Northampton.

I accept it has at the moment.
The London & Birmingham Railway bequeathed an alignment between Roade and Rugby that was far from perfect. It was the fourth iteration of possible routes, and adopted in some haste. Difficulty in persuading landowners to sell resulted in having to deviate, the then national strategic location of Weedon had to be served, the ruling gradient (1 in 300, I think) resulted in a conflict with the canal, and this final route involved a tunnel 1 1/2 miles tunnel through unstable strata. Nevertheless, the West Coast modernisation managed to achieve line speed generally of 125 mph - at the expense of a large number of tilts.
By contrast, the New Line via Northampton, being built much later, does not suffer from any of these handicaps and it's difficult to understand why with expenditure better linespeeds could not be achieved. It does seem that, despite the massive budget and outturn on the West Coast upgrade, none of this was spent on the New Line.

I mean how much demand was there pre-covid. There was probably a minimal demand and now there is nothing no doubt

I'm still puzzled how, when no service has been provided since electrification, it can be said that there's no demand.
On that basis, no retail or hospitality organisation would ever open an outlet in a town that didn't already have a branch, because there would be 'no demand' (no-one can use a non-existent service). But these are, generally, market-led organisations...

 

[hst43102]

I don't see why Northampton needs an InterCity service, is the demand there? After all, Northampton is such a dump I don't think people there could afford the overpriced InterCity fares anyway.

I've lived in Northampton all my life until a couple of weeks ago. I totally agree with you about the town being a dump, but there's plenty of money around. There is plenty of business in the town and an InterCity link to the North West / Scotland would be very useful in bringing more business into the town.
Besides, there are lots of other similar-sized towns that have InterCity services and are even worse places - Doncaster comes to mind!

 

[221101 Voyager]

I've lived in Northampton all my life until a couple of weeks ago. I totally agree with you about the town being a dump, but there's plenty of money around. There is plenty of business in the town and an InterCity link to the North West / Scotland would be very useful in bringing more business into the town.
Besides, there are lots of other similar-sized towns that have InterCity services and are even worse places - Doncaster comes to mind!

I'm still puzzled how, when no service has been provided since electrification, it can be said that there's no demand.
On that basis, no retail or hospitality organisation would ever open an outlet in a town that didn't already have a branch, because there would be 'no demand' (no-one can use a non-existent service). But these are, generally, market-led organisations...

Whether Northampton gets an IC service or not they will be waiting about 10 years before it could happen anyways (approx 2029) when Phase 1 of HS2 opens! That's assuming HS2 isn't delayed again, which they probably will until 2035!

 

[Bald Rick]

It does seem that, despite the massive budget and outturn on the West Coast upgrade, none of this was spent on the New Line.

Plenty was spent on the new line. New signalling. New power supply. Quite a lot of track renewal and OLE renewal. Some linespeed improvements south of Northampton. Taken together, somewhere north of £50m at an educated guess. Possibly twice that.

I think what you mean was that nothing was spent on the New Line that improved the linespeed at Northampton or north to Rugby. The answer to that is - why? It would’ve been very expensive for very little benefit.

And of course a significant majority of Northampton passengers have benefited from the project, through the spending south of Northampton on linespeed increases, new junctions, big remodelling (notably Euston) Etc Etc.

 

[The Planner]

Whether Northampton gets an IC service or not they will be waiting about 10 years before it could happen anyways (approx 2029) when Phase 1 of HS2 opens! That's assuming HS2 isn't delayed again, which they probably will until 2035!

No, if it was decided that they were to be furnished with an Intercity service a way would be found to do it quite quickly.