Avanti West Coast performance statistics

[Merseysider]

and being able to reschedule their journey accordingly

...and be willing to pay for an extra night’s hotel, in a lot of cases.

7 Avanti cancellations into or out of Euston around 8pm last night which won’t have helped.

 

[jfollows]

Thanks for the explanation. I'd never heard the term before but it comes as no surprise that a valid reason for use is being abused.

You can see what the Office of the Rail Regulator (ORR) thinks in a post in the thread I referred to, essentially it's thought by many that when operators cancel trains using the "PG" code "Planned cancellation where that cancellation is identified and agreed prior to 22.00 the day before the schedule runs" when the reason for the cancellation is a resource shortage - rolling stock or staff - and the reason for the shortage is because of a failing of the operating company (not enough stock, bad maintenance, not enough staff, poor staff management) then they get an unwarranted "get out" because they don't have to compensate passengers booked on the cancelled trains for delays to their journeys as a result of the cancellation.
The cancellation code isn't new, it's just that in recent months it appears to be being used when it's not warranted. Who decides whether or not it's warranted is currently the operator, so it can be a self-interested decision. Press, parliament and the regulator have all lined up against the "sharp" practice as observed by certain train operating companies.
Use of the "PG" code in this way is not new, it's been done before, but presumably because it's become more widespread and done over a longer period it's attracted more attention than before.

EDIT Clearly the passenger problem applies when advance tickets are used and the booked train is cancelled in this way, but ordinarily compensation would equally be payable to passengers with open tickets who turn up for the cancelled train based on the railway's timetable - as it existed the previous day, for example. So I do agree that it's often sharp practice, but then the whole way our railways are run today seems to lead to its operators playing games with the rules under which they operate rather than - or at least in preference to - thinking of the effect on an individual passenger.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

What is a "P" code please ?

Here is more detail, if you are interested...


There are two letter code for cancled trains. Ones that start with P are planned and do not count in the government's cancled and late train statistics.


Avanti are using PG:

PG	Planned cancellation where that cancellation is identified and agreed prior to 22.00 the day before the schedule runs

There are some non offical resources that list them. I don't know how complete or accurate they are.

Delay Attribution Guide - Open Rail Data Wiki

Live Train Times | Rail Record

Live Train Times - Passenger and freight train times for the UK rail network - Rail Record

www.rail-record.co.uk

 

[GordonT]

Nationalrail disruption page attributes today's AWC cancellations to "unseasonably high staff shortages". Is this a new addition to the current lexicon of railway weasel words?

 

[Bald Rick]

Nationalrail disruption page attributes today's AWC cancellations to "unseasonably high staff shortages". Is this a new addition to the current lexicon of railway weasel words?

might be a typo on the first word…

 

[Runningaround]

My last five Avanti journeys have resulted in 100% delay repay claims being paid. Book first class peak tickets and ask for some beers to take off the train - you are getting your money back more than likely.

Yes it wasn't their fault today, but it usually very much is.

Not much good if you missed whatever you were attending though.

 

[Runningaround]

There was a time you could book a match ticket for a game in London with confidence that the train timetable would be the same and book a return train weeks or months in advance so that if your trip also included a hotel you could shop around and find a good deal.
Now if you want to attend a high profile game the chances are it'll be sold out by the time the train timetables released so your either restricted to early kick-off times and use WMT or Chiltern or in most cases don't bother at all.
One thing about Avanti is they've saved me a fortune in day trips to London and the North West.

 

[Foxcover]

Every North Wales Coast/Chester -> Euston cancelled today. Is that a specific local issue, or Avanti management decision to abandon again in favour of the ’priority’ routes?

 

[Man_with_beard]

I find it funny that Avanti have just been told to improve themselves by a certain date or lose the franchise and the first thing they do is cancel a lot of their services today. Really they need to go right now as their days are numbered.

 

[Richardr]

Avanti is listing 17 cancellations today & already over 60 cancellations (P coded services) tomorrow on Journeycheck
Liverpool service is reduced to a two hourly service for much of the day.

Avanti West Coast JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

Avanti West Coast JourneyCheck provides real time, up-to-date train times and train disruption information keeping you informed about any delays or cancellations on the network and helping you know what to do when your journey is affected. Train Cancellations, Delays, Alterations and...

www.journeycheck.com

and today got worse - I was on a scheduled 8:48am from Manchester Piccadilly to Euston. Already there had been issues with people having reservations for the same seats, but the full train, on the platform for some time, was cancelled ten minutes after it should have left - no driver.

Next train wasn't for an hour - it did operate, but as can be imagined packed with two train loads on one train and chaos over reservations.

 

[Merseysider]

and today got worse - I was on a scheduled 8:48am from Manchester Piccadilly to Euston. Already there had been issues with people having reservations for the same seats, but the full train, on the platform for some time, was cancelled ten minutes after it should have left - no driver.

Next train wasn't for an hour - it did operate, but as can be imagined packed with two train loads on one train and chaos over reservations.

I’m amazed they’re still able to fill trains with how many they’ve cancelled the last few months

January’s performance statistics should be out in a week or so and it’ll be interesting to see how it compares to December.

 

[Krokodil]

They've given practically 24 hours notice so they realise it'll be carnage with cancellations. Unacceptable really when it's purely staff related. You could understand at this time of year if it was carnage with the weather at least causing it.

Not even that in some cases. Some trains weren't even cancelled until after they should have departed.

 

[Facing Back]

They've given practically 24 hours notice so they realise it'll be carnage with cancellations. Unacceptable really when it's purely staff related. You could understand at this time of year if it was carnage with the weather at least causing it.

I can understand very abnormal weather causing carnage. I'm not sure whether anybody should be surprised that it is cold and wet and a bit windy and I occasionally wonder why it does seem to cause so much trouble for our travel infrastructure.

 

[midland1]

Every North Wales Coast/Chester -> Euston cancelled today. Is that a specific local issue, or Avanti management decision to abandon again in favour of the ’priority’ routes?

Time was when Euston - Holyhead in the days of the Irish Mail was a 'priority routes'.

 

[gazzaa2]

I can understand very abnormal weather causing carnage. I'm not sure whether anybody should be surprised that it is cold and wet and a bit windy and I occasionally wonder why it does seem to cause so much trouble for our travel infrastructure.

Yeah, I meant in terms of a really bad weather day with a lot of prior warnings.

 

[Howardh]

I find it funny that Avanti have just been told to improve themselves by a certain date or lose the franchise and the first thing they do is cancel a lot of their services today. Really they need to go right now as their days are numbered.

On Sky's Sophie Ridge news show, they interviewed Andy Burnham - basically about Zahwali - but he made sure he got the message across that the media aren't covering just how bad the railways (in general) and Avanti (in particular) are. To the average passenger, the government sacking might be of interest, but in real life we can't get around the country, especially at weekends when workers get time off.

 

[Carlisle]

On Sky's Sophie Ridge news show, they interviewed Andy Burnham -

Has he ever proposed a credible plan to address the issues or is rail just another channel for him to attack the current government?

 

[Howardh]

Has he proposed a credible plan to address the issues or is rail just another channel for him to attack the current government?

He's not in government, he's not even in parliament. So it's not really his job to propose a solution, just to point out where the issues are! But yes, if a TOC has issues, and TPE/Avanti clearly do, it would be nice if any politician of any colour could say "this is the way out" - unfortunately if that were the opposition then the incumbent government would vote it down, can't be doing what the opposition want otherwise they might as well be in power.

Really need a cross-party group to work out what to do with our railways, just like I suggested at the time a cross-party group to take us through Covid. The issue is bigger than party politics.

 

[Krokodil]

Has he ever proposed a credible plan to address the issues or is rail just another channel for him to attack the current government?

Well giving the staff a no-strings attached pay rise would be a start to restoring relations.

 

[Facing Back]

Yeah, I meant in terms of a really bad weather day with a lot of prior warnings.

fair enough

 

[Carlisle]

He's not in government, he's not even in parliament. So it's not really his job to propose a solution,

Haven’t Labour proposed re nationalisation? He could start by explaining the benefits of such proposals over the current arrangements.

 

[Howardh]

Haven’t Labour proposed re nationalisation? He could start by explaining the benefits of such proposals over the current arrangements.

Isn't operator of last resort nationalisation by the back door?

 

[43066]

Haven’t Labour proposed re nationalisation? He could start by explaining the benefits of such proposals over the current arrangements.

No?

It was floated and then Starmer backtracked, from memory.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

He's not in government, he's not even in parliament. So it's not really his job to propose a solution, just to point out where the issues are! But yes, if a TOC has issues, and TPE/Avanti clearly do, it would be nice if any politician of any colour could say "this is the way out" - unfortunately if that were the opposition then the incumbent government would vote it down, can't be doing what the opposition want otherwise they might as well be in power.

Really need a cross-party group to work out what to do with our railways, just like I suggested at the time a cross-party group to take us through Covid. The issue is bigger than party politics.

Indeed between the inept industry management and the unions the industry is being hollowed out from within so a cross party group would be a good idea given where we are in the electoral cycle. However, it doesn't work that way in this country and thus there is a real risk here of nothing happening still we get the change of govt and even then Labour will have their hands full with more immediate issues. Whats needed is a 2023 Gerald Fiennes leader to stand up and be counted but they won't because they like their fat cat salaries and benefits.

 

[Carlisle]

No?

It was floated and then Starmer backtracked, from memory.

Labour re-commits to nationalising rail if it wins the next election

Labour has re-committed to nationalising the railways if it forms government after the next election.

www.cityam.com

Is this out of date then ?

 

[43066]

Labour re-commits to nationalising rail if it wins the next election

Labour has re-committed to nationalising the railways if it forms government after the next election.

www.cityam.com

Is this out of date then ?

Is there a firm commitment to doing this on their website? I can’t find it.

Starmer clearly has to appease the left wing fringe and said he will take a “pragmatic not ideological approach” to it, and of course much of it is already publicly owned (NR), so I strongly suspect weasel words. Quite rightly because it’s a terrible idea, unless we want the railway to end up like the NHS.

 

[Facing Back]

Is there a firm commitment to doing this on their website? I can’t find it.

Starmer clearly has to appease the left wing fringe and said he will take a “pragmatic not ideological approach” to it, and of course much of it is already publicly owned (NR), so I strongly suspect weasel words. Quite rightly because it’s a terrible idea, unless we want the railway to end up like the NHS.

i distinctly recall Starmer saying that his intention would be to take public control of each franchise as the contracts expired - in effect nationalisation without cost (he didn't mention the ROSCOs) - but I can't find reference to it or any recent statements (with a 10 second google search) so I would imagine he is being tactically vague, waiting and learning from the government's mistakes.

 

[43066]

i distinctly recall Starmer saying that his intention would be to take public control of each franchise as the contracts expired - in effect nationalisation without cost (he didn't mention the ROSCOs) - but I can't find reference to it or any recent statements (with a 10 second google search) so I would imagine he is being tactically vague, waiting and learning from the government's mistakes.

I expect so. He’s certainly keeping his cards close to his chest on most issues. If he does get into power, as looks increasingly likely, let’s just hope he turns out to be more of a Tony Blair* than a Tony Benn!

*sans warmaking

 

[Facing Back]

I expect so. He’s certainly keeping his cards close to his chest on most issues. If he does get into power, as looks increasingly likely, let’s just hope he turns out to be more of a Tony Blair* than a Tony Benn!

*sans warmaking

Blair was rather more vocal as I recall and had a clear agenda. I'd normally think that Starmer was damaging his chances sitting on the fence for so long - perhaps he will get off the pot in the year before the election? As things stand however, if he gets to polling day with a pulse, he's likely to win and offer the Tories 8 years to shoot all of the idiots in their ranks and let the new generation come forth.

 

[Carlisle]

Isn't operator of last resort nationalisation by the back door?

Yes definitely. if the railway’s running well by the next election id be surprised if Labour pursues the whole nationalisation thing much beyond where its currently at.