Avanti West Coast cancellations

[Butts]

20:15 Manchester Piccadilly to Euston cancelled due to a points failure with a late start expected for the 21:15 (last service to Euston). Pretty poor frequency for a weekday service.

17:43 Euston to Glasgow via Birmingham is running 82 late and is now terminating at Preston vice Glasgow. Not a good day for Avanti.

I was advised at BHI to use that service when the preceding Edinburgh one terminated at Wolverhampton.

So glad I just travelled on my original service back to SAD and rebooked for the morning

What will happen to people who get as far as Preston bound for Edinburgh or Glasgow ?

 

[Watershed]

Is there any risk that Avanti will be stripped of their franchise if things do not improve?

No. And why would they be, when they are doing the DfT's bidding?

 

[Carlisle]

What will happen to people who get as far as Preston bound for Edinburgh or Glasgow ?

There’s still a 21 43 Preston - Glasgow

 

[londonmidland]

What will happen to people who get as far as Preston bound for Edinburgh or Glasgow ?

There's a delayed 21:43 Glasgow service which is due in around 22:58. That service is currently running 81 minutes late. See here

 

[voyagerdude220]

I got caught out by the 06.44 Liverpool - Euston cancellation, but the next one departed 07.16, staff in the ticket office, were saying tickets booked for the 06.44 were ok to be used on the 07.16, but once i was onboard the 07.16, the guard said over the tannoy, tickets weren't valid on the 07.16, & had to get the 07.44 as the 07.16 was fully booked as it called additionally at Lichfield & Tamworth.

As others have already said, the TM who worked the 07:16 and announced that pax who were booked on the cancelled 06:44 mustn't use their train was out of order to do so. It's not up to the TM to refuse to allow passengers to travel on their train with valid tickets because of the earlier cancellation and predicted overcrowding.

I'd be interested to see how the TM would have reacted to an Advance ticket holder who had a ticket for the cancelled train standing their ground and quite correctly wishing to travel on the 07:16 regardless of the TM trying to prevent them to do so.

 

[mrmartin]

Think we are getting a bit over the top here. While the situation is definitely not ideal, looking at EUS MAN today only a handful of services were cancelled (I count 3?). There were no cancellations EUS GLC.

I don't think this (yet) warrants a huge emergency timetable with massive cuts (at least through the week), which will just lead to mass overcrowding and even more complaints of an eg 1tph Manchester service down from 3tph being so congested people are having to wait an hour or two for the next one!

I certainly would not be put off travelling even at the weekend with Avanti, though I'm pretty confident travelling and can reroute myself pretty quickly. And you get generous delay repay when it goes wrong. I wouldn't leave it to the last possible train though!

It is ridiculous that this situation has occured - huge investment in new rolling stock for TPE and Avanti, when they can't even run the current lot cos of easy to predict staffing shortages.

 

[dk1]

Is there any risk that Avanti will be stripped of their franchise if things do not improve?

I would say zero chance.

 

[Butts]

There's a delayed 21:43 Glasgow service which is due in around 22:58. That service is currently running 81 minutes late. See here

The last train from Glasgow to Edinburgh is 2345 so would it be a Taxi job ?

 

[Watershed]

Think we are getting a bit over the top here. While the situation is definitely not ideal, looking at EUS MAN today only a handful of services were cancelled (I count 3?). There were no cancellations EUS GLC.

I don't think this (yet) warrants a huge emergency timetable with massive cuts (at least through the week), which will just lead to mass overcrowding and even more complaints of an eg 1tph Manchester service down from 3tph being so congested people are having to wait an hour or two for the next one!

I certainly would not be put off travelling even at the weekend with Avanti, though I'm pretty confident travelling and can reroute myself pretty quickly. And you get generous delay repay when it goes wrong. I wouldn't leave it to the last possible train though!

It is ridiculous that this situation has occured - huge investment in new rolling stock for TPE and Avanti, when they can't even run the current lot cos of easy to predict staffing shortages.

It's much worse on weekends. 40-50 cancellations a day has been the "norm" over the last few weekends. That's a huge percentage of Avanti's daily service considering they run around 200 trains a day.

I imagine this coming weekend will be pretty ugly, with fewer traincrew volunteering to work overtime on what may well be the hottest day of the year, and heat related speed restrictions likely wreaking havoc.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

20:15 Manchester Piccadilly to Euston cancelled due to a points failure with a late start expected for the 21:15 (last service to Euston). Pretty poor frequency for a weekday service.

17:43 Euston to Glasgow via Birmingham is running 82 late and is now terminating at Preston vice Glasgow. Not a good day for Avanti.

Euston has been buggered all evening, cancellations are to be expected. Though they are running some trains despite the delay, 70+ late on a Holyhead service.

 

[voyagerdude220]

This evening's 1S06 19:30 London Euston to Glasgow Central is now terminating at Preston. It left Euston 60 late although last reported on Real Time Trains passing Colwich 96 late at 22:16 and appears to have been diverted via Hixon/Stoke/Alsager for some reason. So goodness knows how late anyone for Glasgow will actually arrive there.

 

[londonmidland]

This evening's 1S06 19:30 London Euston to Glasgow Central is now terminating at Preston. It left Euston 60 late although last reported on Real Time Trains passing Colwich 96 late at 22:16 and appears to have been diverted via Hixon/Stoke/Alsager for some reason. So goodness knows how late anyone for Glasgow will actually arrive there.

Was just going to say the exact same thing. 1S06 is now terminating at Preston due to no train crew to take it forward to Glasgow. Rail replacement transport to be organised from Preston.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2022 ==

I do find it strange how Avanti's Twitter feed is full of 'funny' jokes/pictures but not one public tweet about disruption, for several days.

 

[Huntergreed]

It’s a thoroughly depressing affair across the west coast mainline at the moment.

I live in south west Scotland, Lockerbie is very much my “gateway” station to most of the UK. Since May, I’ve been unable to rely on TPE at all, as they’ve cancelled a huge number of services, and I was able to get by on Avanti services (which recieved special stop orders to “sweep up” the TPE passengers).

Now it’s hard to even rely on Avanti, with so many cancellations and partial workings, to the point where I’m now looking to drive for most/all of my trips to Northern England/the central belt.

Now as a rail enthusiast, of course I will return to the railway when (dare I say, if?) things improve in the future. Avanti are a terrible company for more reasons than I can name, but the problem goes well beyond just Avanti.

Frankly, this is the worst state I’ve ever seen the railways in during my (admittedly short) and I really don’t think the railways realise the extent to which the current situation will drive away a significant number of passengers for a long time (as an enthusiast, if I’m now driving as a first choice, what will others think?)

 

[SCDR_WMR]

It’s a thoroughly depressing affair across the west coast mainline at the moment.

I live in south west Scotland, Lockerbie is very much my “gateway” station to most of the UK. Since May, I’ve been unable to rely on TPE at all, as they’ve cancelled a huge number of services, and I was able to get by on Avanti services (which recieved special stop orders to “sweep up” the TPE passengers).

Now it’s hard to even rely on Avanti, with so many cancellations and partial workings, to the point where I’m now looking to drive for most/all of my trips to Northern England/the central belt.

Now as a rail enthusiast, of course I will return to the railway when (dare I say, if?) things improve in the future. Avanti are a terrible company for more reasons than I can name, but the problem goes well beyond just Avanti.

Frankly, this is the worst state I’ve ever seen the railways in during my (admittedly short) and I really don’t think the railways realise the extent to which the current situation will drive away a significant number of passengers for a long time (as an enthusiast, if I’m now driving as a first choice, what will others think?)

I think up to a certain level they really do see the impact, however, those at the top simply don't care. To them it's a burden, and certainly not a public service.

The only think I'm thankful of currently if that passengers are not taking their frustrations out on train crew and platform staff (or certainly not from what I have seen) which is different to how it was for me a few years ago when abuse was almost constant on the Snow Hill lines!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there any risk that Avanti will be stripped of their franchise if things do not improve?

I doubt it, but we can but wish. The DfT won't, I suspect, want the hassle.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2022 ==

Think we are getting a bit over the top here. While the situation is definitely not ideal, looking at EUS MAN today

Weekdays are not the issue.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2022 ==

I certainly would not be put off travelling even at the weekend with Avanti, though I'm pretty confident travelling and can reroute myself pretty quickly. And you get generous delay repay when it goes wrong. I wouldn't leave it to the last possible train though!

I certainly would. I will not use Avanti until this is sorted. For shorter journeys I will use LNR (and save a few quid!) and for longer ones it's the car.

It is ridiculous that this situation has occured - huge investment in new rolling stock for TPE and Avanti, when they can't even run the current lot cos of easy to predict staffing shortages.

Huge investment in rolling stock by Avanti? What, a few 80x, some new seats and a fairly cheap vinyl job over dealer white? Hardly.

TPE I will give you - the stock is transformative but the operation remains an utter joke.

 

[Statto]

The last train from Glasgow to Edinburgh is 2345 so would it be a Taxi job ?

Or could catch the 24 hour, Citylink 900 or N900 coach.

 

[Huntergreed]

Or could catch the 24 hour, Citylink 900 or N900 coach.

Demonstrating perfectly why this situation is going to put mant off the railway for good.

Once a passenger finds the 24 hour coach service, and finds it reliable and comfortable, why would they return to the overcrowded and extremely unreliable Avanti service.

 

[dk1]

Once a passenger finds the 24 hour coach service, and finds it reliable and comfortable, why would they return to the overcrowded and extremely unreliable Avanti service.

The thought of willingly getting onto a coach & the invariable travel sickness is more than enough to get me back on a train at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Huntergreed]

The thought of willingly getting onto a coach & the invariable travel sickness is more than enough to get me back on a train at the earliest opportunity.

Likewise, however to those who don’t mind it or don’t share any enthusiasm for the railway, it seems a much better alternative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Demonstrating perfectly why this situation is going to put mant off the railway for good.

Once a passenger finds the 24 hour coach service, and finds it reliable and comfortable, why would they return to the overcrowded and extremely unreliable Avanti service.

Eh? Avanti do not operate any Glasgow to Edinburgh service. There is coach competition over much of their route, but it is mainly infrequent NatEx, Megabus and Flixbus services on fairly random timetables. The car on the M6/M1 is the main competitor.

 

[trebor79]

Demonstrating perfectly why this situation is going to put mant off the railway for good.

Once a passenger finds the 24 hour coach service, and finds it reliable and comfortable, why would they return to the overcrowded and extremely unreliable Avanti service.

Bleugh. Coaches are slow, you're liable to get stuck in traffic jams, are not as safe as trains, have stinky chemical toilets and no catering. Usually hardly any legroom and almost certainly not a table to work on even if you could stop the right keys with the constant rocking and rolling. I'd hardly describe it as comfortable. Also a greater impact on the environment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Likewise, however to those who don’t mind it or don’t share any enthusiasm for the railway, it seems a much better alternative.

Long distance coach travel is grim. It does have a niche on services taking about an hour or so via motorways or to airports directly, but none of Avanti's services really fit that market.

Coaches are basically, coach enthusiasts aside, the budget choice only chosen when you can't afford the train and don't own a car.

 

[Watershed]

Demonstrating perfectly why this situation is going to put mant off the railway for good.

Once a passenger finds the 24 hour coach service, and finds it reliable and comfortable, why would they return to the overcrowded and extremely unreliable Avanti service.

To be fair there aren't many routes where coaches compete with Avanti, let alone form any realistic sort of alternative (Glasgow to London by coach - I don't think so!). And that's even with the parlous state of Avanti's reliability at the moment. There are certainly other operators that need to be worried more in that department, but not Avanti.

The bigger issue is that they're destroying their competitive advantage over driving, even for trips into London. People can and do just railhead to an outlying Tube station. The door to door journey time is often comparable, and the cost is much lower than taking the train - even with current petrol prices.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bleugh. Coaches are slow, you're liable to get stuck in traffic jams, are not as safe as trains, have stinky chemical toilets and no catering. Usually hardly any legroom and almost certainly not a table to work on even if you could stop the right keys with the constant rocking and rolling. I'd hardly describe it as comfortable. Also a greater impact on the environment.

Actually, by some measures, coach has a better safety record than rail (or at least it used to, rail has improved massively) and lower environmental impact.

But even so I don't think Avanti need worry about coaches. The entire daily London to Manchester coach capacity across the three main operators is significantly below one single Pendolino's worth, and to Glasgow must be less than a 3 car 158's worth.

 

[mrmartin]

At the end of the day, Avantis main long distance routes really have no competition (apart from other TOCs). Airports are completely screwed right now with fares that make the trains seem good value.

I very much doubt many will replace an eg 2hour train from MAN to EUS with a 4-5 hour drive, with expensive petrol and expensive parking because of 25% of the weekend service being cancelled. This is probably different on TPE where the journey times are often more comparable with a car and I would imagine in general shorter journies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I very much doubt many will replace an eg 2hour train from MAN to EUS with a 4-5 hour drive, with expensive petrol and expensive parking because of 25% of the weekend service being cancelled. This is probably different on TPE where the journey times are often more comparable with a car and I would imagine in general shorter journies.

It is only two hours if you live in central Manchester (or near one of the other directly served stations) and are going to central London. In reality the speed of the WCML just means end to end journeys can come close to matching the car or maybe be slightly better.

But yes, they absolutely will. I have already made a few journeys by car that would have been by train due to the inability of both Avanti and TfW to resource their service properly.

Better a 4 hour journey that will get there in comfort than a 2 hour journey that is guesswork and severely overcrowded.

 

[mrmartin]

To be fair there aren't many routes where coaches compete with Avanti, let alone form any realistic sort of alternative (Glasgow to London by coach - I don't think so!). And that's even with the parlous state of Avanti's reliability at the moment. There are certainly other operators that need to be worried more in that department, but not Avanti.

The bigger issue is that they're destroying their competitive advantage over driving, even for trips into London. People can and do just railhead to an outlying Tube station. The door to door journey time is often comparable, and the cost is much lower than taking the train - even with current petrol prices.

Pricing is much more comparable now, say £98 for a london manchester open return, just under 450 miles. At 40mpg that's 11.25gal or 50 litres, which at ~£2/litre is £100 - pretty bang on. Plus parking. Obviously if there is a group it's not but even 2 people i think the train will be cheaper if you have a two together railcard and are paying for parking at either end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pricing is much more comparable now, say £98 for a london manchester open return, just under 450 miles.

If that was the Anytime Return I would agree. It's not, it is the Off Peak which has heavy restrictions on weekdays (albeit not ones that affect weekends away).

But again, would I rather pay £120 worth of diesel and have a comfortable and reliable, if slower, journey, or £100 and suffer a row of cancellations and overcrowding when a train does run? No contest, it's the car every time.

 

[Huntergreed]

At the end of the day, Avantis main long distance routes really have no competition (apart from other TOCs). Airports are completely screwed right now with fares that make the trains seem good value

Not necessarily, indeed I'm having to fly down to London from Scotland on 2 upcoming trips as the option was either a £23 each way flight (no discount) or a £45 each way train fare (with railcard).

For both trips, buying the flights as a round trip has been cheaper than an advance single - and I know I'm definitely not the only one that's doing this (I would always strongly advocate rail over air, but I simply can't justify the cost), and now the reliability

It is only two hours if you live in central Manchester (or near one of the other directly served stations) and are going to central London. In reality the speed of the WCML just means end to end journeys can come close to matching the car or maybe be slightly better.

Exactly, and this is one of many examples. Carlisle to Glasgow is 1 hour 10 mins roughly. Kingstown industrial estate to Glasgow fort retail park is 1 hour 26 mins. Unless you are doing a city centre point to point journey, there is often little in it. What the train makes up for in speed, it loses in accessibility and convenience.

But yes, they absolutely will. I have already made a few journeys by car that would have been by train due to the inability of both Avanti and TfW to resource their service properly.

Better a 4 hour journey that will get there in comfort than a 2 hour journey that is guesswork and severely overcrowded.

3 months ago, I would travel by rail 3 times a week from Lockerbie to Glasgow. Now you're lucky if I travel by rail once, as driving is simply much more reliable and more comfortable (and although slightly more expensive, I no longer have to worry about reliability, having both received a disciplinary from university for timekeeping and almost losing a job as a result of relying too much on the railway.

 

[455refurb]

The railway is in the middle of a collective, en masse slew of self harming at the moment, whoever's door that lays at, DfT, Avanti management, etc - whether it is by design to reduce demand, or simply through incompetence. My employer has had to introduce a booking system for the car park due to the unreliability of the railway (multiple TOCs including Avanti), and this is with hybrid working. For operational roles where staff have to be on site, the company is now providing taxis for Sunday morning shifts, since the cost of disruption through relying on the railway is now just not worth it.

After being burned a few times, all of my long distance UK travel is by car these days. Delays can still happen on the roads, of course, but one generally has more options if they do.