Avanti v LNER

[johnr57]

Having recently moved to Edinburgh and making many journeys south I have travelled in both companies services regularly
I make the following observations
1. West Coast is invariably slower
2. Dwell times on the west coast seem longer than on the ECML

Why is this? The first has been discussed previously ( more bigger places to serve etc) but am I just imagining it? Eg Avanti services regularly have long waiting times at Birmingham New Street and I can’t remember anything like that on the east coast - comments welcome

 

[JonathanH]

Having recently moved to Edinburgh and making many journeys south I have travelled in both companies services regularly
I make the following observations
1. West Coast is invariably slower
2. Dwell times on the west coast seem longer than on the ECML

The LNER route is the primary service from Edinburgh to London. The Avanti service at Edinburgh isn't really there for journeys from Edinburgh to London.

 

[AlterEgo]

The West Coast route is significantly longer from Edinburgh and Edinburgh is not on the West Coast Main Line anyway.

The Avanti service is basically an extension of some Birmingham services.

 

[hexagon789]

Having recently moved to Edinburgh and making many journeys south I have travelled in both companies services regularly
I make the following observations
1. West Coast is invariably slower
2. Dwell times on the west coast seem longer than on the ECML

Why is this? The first has been discussed previously ( more bigger places to serve etc) but am I just imagining it? Eg Avanti services regularly have long waiting times at Birmingham New Street and I can’t remember anything like that on the east coast - comments welcome

The Avanti offering from Edinburgh has always been more to connect Edinburgh with the North West, Birmingham and the West Midlands.

The fact the train runs through to London is simply an operational decision made about a decade ago to merge services which previously terminated at Birmingham from the north with one of the three per hour Birmingham to Euston services.

If the Edinburgh to London Euston services went direct via the Trent Valley and not Birmingham, journey time would be only slightly longer than via the ECML.

The WCML fast services from Scotland also make more intermediate calls than the equivalent ECML services - 6 or 7 vs 4. Each stop adds about 5 mins, if only 4 were made, it would be even more similar.

 

[dk1]

Having recently moved to Edinburgh and making many journeys south I have travelled in both companies services regularly
I make the following observations
1. West Coast is invariably slower
2. Dwell times on the west coast seem longer than on the ECML

Why is this? The first has been discussed previously ( more bigger places to serve etc) but am I just imagining it? Eg Avanti services regularly have long waiting times at Birmingham New Street and I can’t remember anything like that on the east coast - comments welcome

Edinburgh to London is not really a target market for Avanti in the same way Glasgow isn’t for LNER.

 

[AJDesiro]

Having recently moved to Edinburgh and making many journeys south I have travelled in both companies services regularly
I make the following observations
1. West Coast is invariably slower
2. Dwell times on the west coast seem longer than on the ECML

Why is this? The first has been discussed previously ( more bigger places to serve etc) but am I just imagining it? Eg Avanti services regularly have long waiting times at Birmingham New Street and I can’t remember anything like that on the east coast - comments welcome

The west coast service was originally an XC Birmingham-Edinburgh service, but it got transferred over to the West Coast operation under Virgin. Virgin joined the paths of 1tph of their London-Birmingham services with the Scotland service and ran it as a through train, hence the long dwell time at New St (new st is also one of the largest stations outside of London so a long dwell kinda makes sense). It’s not really intended for end-end journeys. More London-Birmingham and Birmingham-Edinburgh.

 

[johnr57]

I wasn’t thinking of the route to Euston, spending about a couple of hours extra is just daft and with care LNER are much cheaper with split advance firsts. I regularly go to or change at New Street and I just perceive it to be slower

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2023 ==

The west coast service was originally an XC Birmingham-Edinburgh service, but it got transferred over to the West Coast operation under Virgin. Virgin joined the paths of 1tph of their London-Birmingham services with the Scotland service and ran it as a through train, hence the long dwell time at New St (new st is also one of the largest stations outside of London so a long dwell kinda makes sense). It’s not really intended for end-end journeys. More London-Birmingham and Birmingham-Edinburgh.

Ah that really explains a lot thank you

But it doesn’t explain why Avanti Wi-Fi is worse than LNER ……

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I wasn’t thinking of the route to Euston, spending about a couple of hours extra is just daft and with care LNER are much cheaper with split advance firsts. I regularly go to or change at New Street and I just perceive it to be slower
Ah that really explains a lot thank you
But it doesn’t explain why Avanti Wi-Fi is worse than LNER ……

For Edinburgh-Birmingham a better comparator is XC, which also has more stops than LNER, and is slower than Avanti.
Since the WCML upgrade, Avanti running direct could easily match LNER London-Edinburgh timings, but the franchising system keeps LNER as the prime service to Edinburgh and Avanti to Glasgow.
Network Rail has said any increase of WCML services to Edinburgh will be at the expense of Glasgow services, so it isn't likely.

HS2 plans (remember them?) after Phase 2b were that the prime London-Scotland service would run via the WCML, with trains dividing at Carlisle for Glasgow and Edinburgh.
That seems a fantasy at the moment.

It's about a century since the LMS and LNER agreed a split of services to Scotland, with one majoring on Glasgow and the other on Edinburgh.
BR continued the split, which then led to the West/East Coast franchising specifications.
The West Coast also used to run north of Glasgow/Edinburgh (to Perth, Aberdeen, Inverness etc) but these were cut back in the Pendolino era.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I prefer Avanti due to my preferences in factors such as comfort, scenery, facilities etc, but it’s definitely not the choice for anyone time-conscious.

 

[johnr57]

I prefer Avanti due to my preferences in factors such as comfort, scenery, facilities etc, but it’s definitely not the choice for anyone time-conscious.

And I would choose LNER for exactly the same reasons!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2023 ==

For Edinburgh-Birmingham a better comparator is XC, which also has more stops than LNER, and is slower than Avanti.
Since the WCML upgrade, Avanti running direct could easily match LNER London-Edinburgh timings, but the franchising system keeps LNER as the prime service to Edinburgh and Avanti to Glasgow.
Network Rail has said any increase of WCML services to Edinburgh will be at the expense of Glasgow services, so it isn't likely.

HS2 plans (remember them?) after Phase 2b were that the prime London-Scotland service would run via the WCML, with trains dividing at Carlisle for Glasgow and Edinburgh.
That seems a fantasy at the moment.

It's about a century since the LMS and LNER agreed a split of services to Scotland, with one majoring on Glasgow and the other on Edinburgh.
BR continued the split, which then led to the West/East Coast franchising specifications.
The West Coast also used to run north of Glasgow/Edinburgh (to Perth, Aberdeen, Inverness etc) but these were cut back in the Pendolino era.

Many thanks for that

 

[jon0844]

it doesn’t explain why Avanti Wi-Fi is worse than LNER ……

?

That'll be down to the hardware fitted onboard, as well as the coverage from the networks Avanti choose to use.

Southern has refurbished trains with Wi-Fi 5 access points with a 866Mbps sync rate, and I was able to stream a football match on Now TV from Brighton to Victoria. I expect the new rolling stock from Avanti will use the same, or newer, Wi-Fi tech - and the new trains won't suffer the same signal blocking characteristics either.

 

[Merseysider]

You'd be mad to take Avanti EDB-EUS with almost 20 intermediate stops unless you were on a Pendo bashing mission.

As mentioned above, it's not primarily intended to serve the two markets directly, but to link the two capitals up to intermediate cities, with the through running via Brum an operational convenience.

Both the last LNER and Lumo of the night (which depart a fair bit later) beat the 1852 Avanti.

The route with LNER also has the better scenery imo, more friendly staff, and LNER also wins when it comes to actually running trains.

I also agree there are several wifi blackspots with Avanti - no idea why!

 

[Cloud Strife]

The West Coast also used to run north of Glasgow/Edinburgh (to Perth, Aberdeen, Inverness etc) but these were cut back in the Pendolino era.

There were Virgin (West Coast) services to Aberdeen?

 

[DarloRich]

Welcome fight fans to Maddison Square Garden for this eagerly awaited 12 round heavyweight transportation clash for the WBC/WBA/IBF/ and Railway Magazine intercity travel championship of the world! This is being broadcast AROUND THE WORLD on RUK TV and on the internet

In the Red corner, wearing the red and white livery, fighting out of the reborn Doncaster Carr depot, trained by the peoples favourite OLR, with a pedigree dating back over 100 years is the transport pride of the North East, the Borders, Yorkshire, some of Scotland and that flat bit of England that isn't East Anglia, the fastest, the greatest, the undisputed, undefeated heavyweight champion of the world of the world.............. L.N.E.R!

And in the blue corner is the challenger, the upstart, the new kid on the long distance block, trained by the evil first group in the granite city of Aberdeen, wearing the Aubergine and white livery, now based in London but previously operating out of Birmingham, Ingerland comes the IIIIIIIIIIIIIII talian Stallion Avanti West Coooooooooooooooooast!

And now over to our referee for the evening:

I want a good clean fight, no low blows, no undercutting ticket prices, no price gouging, no silly social media campaigns and no crying like Virgin when you lose.

LETS GET READY TO RUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMBBBBBBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

 

[Merseysider]

Welcome fight fans to Maddison Square Garden for this eagerly awaited 12 round heavyweight transportation clash for the WBC/WBA/IBF/ and Railway Magazine intercity travel championship of the world! This is being broadcast AROUND THE WORLD on RUK TV and on the internet

In the Red corner, wearing the red and white livery, fighting out of the reborn Doncaster Carr depot, trained by the peoples favourite OLR, with a pedigree dating back over 100 years is the transport pride of the North East, the Borders, Yorkshire, some of Scotland and that flat bit of England that isn't East Anglia, the fastest, the greatest, the undisputed, undefeated heavyweight champion of the world of the world.............. L.N.E.R!

And in the blue corner is the challenger, trained by the evil first group in the granite city of Aberdeen, wearing the Aubergine and white livery, now based in London but previously operating out of Birmingham, Ingerland comes the IIIIIIIIIIIIIII talian Stallion Avanti West Coooooooooooooooooast!

And now over to our referee for the evening:

I want a good clean fight, no low blows, no undercutting ticket prices, no price gouging, no silly social media campaigns and no crying like Virgin when you lose.

LETS GET READY TO RUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMBBBBBBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Brilliant!

My money's on LNER... wonder which side @yorkie is supporting?!

 

[Bald Rick]

Welcome fight fans to Maddison Square Garden for this eagerly awaited 12 round heavyweight transportation clash for the WBC/WBA/IBF/ and Railway Magazine intercity travel championship of the world! This is being broadcast AROUND THE WORLD on RUK TV and on the internet

In the Red corner, wearing the red and white livery, fighting out of the reborn Doncaster Carr depot, trained by the peoples favourite OLR, with a pedigree dating back over 100 years is the transport pride of the North East, the Borders, Yorkshire, some of Scotland and that flat bit of England that isn't East Anglia, the fastest, the greatest, the undisputed, undefeated heavyweight champion of the world of the world.............. L.N.E.R!

And in the blue corner is the challenger, the upstart, the new kid on the long distance block, trained by the evil first group in the granite city of Aberdeen, wearing the Aubergine and white livery, now based in London but previously operating out of Birmingham, Ingerland comes the IIIIIIIIIIIIIII talian Stallion Avanti West Coooooooooooooooooast!

And now over to our referee for the evening:

I want a good clean fight, no low blows, no undercutting ticket prices, no price gouging, no silly social media campaigns and no crying like Virgin when you lose.

LETS GET READY TO RUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMBBBBBBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

I’ve told you before - lay off the sauce on a school night. Cheers!

 

[hexagon789]

There were Virgin (West Coast) services to Aberdeen?

CrossCountry certainly, but not bona fide WCML expresses into Euston.

 

[DarloRich]

Whilst I prefer LNER I don't actually mind Avanti. I think the Pendolinos have improved a great deal after the recent refurb and their voyagers while still nasty and much better than the ones used by XC.

 

[JamesT]

I also agree there are several wifi blackspots with Avanti - no idea why!

Given the train wifi uses the mobile networks for their uplinks, presumably there are just some areas along the WCML where the mobile operators haven't put in enough masts?

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Change at Warrington or Crewe for a direct Avanti via the Trent Valley? Connections are not, when last checked, brilliant but this avoids a sightseeing tour of the post-industrial landscapes of the West Mids.... I don't recall any WC services to Aberdeen, but there obvs were Virgin XC services there via the ECML, now Arriva's. The through service from London Euston to the Highland Main Line via Cumbernauld lasted until c.1992, I think. An interesting journey but the East Coast route was faster ever since it was electrified.

 

[johnr57]

Change at Warrington or Crewe for a direct Avanti via the Trent Valley? Connections are not, when last checked, brilliant but this avoids a sightseeing tour of the post-industrial landscapes of the West Mids.... I don't recall any WC services to Aberdeen, but there obvs were Virgin XC services there via the ECML, now Arriva's. The through service from London Euston to the Highland Main Line via Cumbernauld lasted until c.1992, I think. An interesting journey but the East Coast route was faster ever since it was electrified.

Indeed has always been faster since Gresley

 

[D1537]

I live 5 miles from a major WCML station. If we're going to Edinburgh (which we do regularly), we'll drive 50 minutes to Newark and use LNER. You can probably out from that which TOC we think provides a better service.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Whilst I prefer LNER I don't actually mind Avanti. I think the Pendolinos have improved a great deal after the recent refurb and their voyagers while still nasty and much better than the ones used by XC.

The views through the Lakes are really really lovely too

 

[Facing Back]

I live 5 miles from a major WCML station. If we're going to Edinburgh (which we do regularly), we'll drive 50 minutes to Newark and use LNER. You can probably out from that which TOC we think provides a better service.

I live halfway between Warrington and Manchester so my choices are TPE to York or Newcastle or Avanti direct. When it was Virgin it was an easy call, now, even with TPE being so crap its half and half - I much prefer LNER now - the service and the whole vibe feels better.

Going to Edinburgh was often cheaper if I flew.

 

[Unstoppable]

I live 5 miles from a major WCML station. If we're going to Edinburgh (which we do regularly), we'll drive 50 minutes to Newark and use LNER. You can probably out from that which TOC we think provides a better service.

LNER wins hands down. Bransons legacy is long gone. Anything First Group get their hands on they destroy. They can only be described as an incurable cancer

 

[rmt4ever]

If I had to travel from Edinburgh to London I would have to choose Avanti over LNER despite the longer journey times.

This is because LNER do not allow me to use the buffet car whereas Avanti do. And it is a long journey to do without a cup of tea or other refreshment.

 

[BeijingDave]

If I had to travel from Edinburgh to London I would have to choose Avanti over LNER despite the longer journey times.

This is because LNER do not allow me to use the buffet car whereas Avanti do. And it is a long journey to do without a cup of tea or other refreshment.

Is this for real? LNER don't provide refreshments at all to (presumably) standard class passengers? I cannot believe they would forego that revenue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this for real? LNER don't provide refreshments at all to (presumably) standard class passengers? I cannot believe they would forego that revenue.

I think there may be a clue in the OP's name, specifically that LNER are card only perhaps?

Hull don't do Standard class refreshments, though, and I agree it's throwing away revenue.

That aside, another reason to choose Avanti (bar the seats) is the view. The ECML is just boring except a few bits at the northern end.

 

[TreacleMiller]

Is this for real? LNER don't provide refreshments at all to (presumably) standard class passengers? I cannot believe they would forego that revenue.

They dont. Bars on every train for all passengers.

 

[mike57]

Hull don't do Standard class refreshments,

Off topic, but thats about to change, a lot of SWMBO's family live in Hull and Hull Trains have been actively recruiting for buffet/trolley staff to extend buffet offering to standard class