Avanti - Trainee Train Drivers - Recruitment Discussion

[Grvrdvicdr]

Fair to say it’ll be different talent pools given the vastly different training requirements between qualified and trainee.



I’ve heard from a (very) informed source that both Avanti and LNER took on so many street to seat trainees in recent years that they’ve struggled to cope from a training and ongoing supervision perspective - ideally you need a balance of each, as they need such different levels of supervision. Obviously traditional “starter” TOCs such as SE are more geared up for street to seat people.

Someone who’s moving to Avanti as a qualified driver in the new year was told in their interview that trainees at Euston are “being pushed to the side” to focus on getting qualifieds in. Seeing as a couple more depots just advertised I’m going to assume this is across the board. As disheartening as it may be I wouldn’t at all be surprised if some of those waiting on trainee roles are told that they will no longer be considered. Speaking of SE it sounds like Avanti may have been told to stop taking so many of their drivers…

 

[Bus mechanic]

Someone who’s moving to Avanti as a qualified driver in the new year was told in their interview that trainees at Euston are “being pushed to the side” to focus on getting qualifieds in. Seeing as a couple more depots just advertised I’m going to assume this is across the board. As disheartening as it may be I wouldn’t at all be surprised if some of those waiting on trainee roles are told that they will no longer be considered. Speaking of SE it sounds like Avanti may have been told to stop taking so many of their drivers…

I highly doubt what you’re saying is true as avanti have recently, literally last few weeks offered loads of trainee courses and given the that they only done 2 recruitment processes for trainees in however many years it would be wise to say they don’t have a unlimited talent pool as some of the more local TOCs. Until Avanti say otherwise its all hearsay and no one really knows the in’s and outs

 

[Grvrdvicdr]

I highly doubt what you’re saying is true as avanti have recently, literally last few weeks offered loads of trainee courses and given the that they only done 2 recruitment processes for trainees in however many years it would be wise to say they don’t have a unlimited talent pool as some of the more local TOCs. Until Avanti say otherwise its all hearsay and no one really knows the in’s and outs

I completely agree with you which is why I said ‘some’ railway is full of hearsay and rumour. But sometimes there is truth behind them.

 

[ezywheels]

It's a slippery slope suggesting qualified drivers are automatically better than trainees. This attitude has been around in aviation for years, and hours in the logbook does not guarantee a super pilot!

 

[43066]

It's a slippery slope suggesting qualified drivers are automatically better than trainees. This attitude has been around in aviation for years, and hours in the logbook does not guarantee a super pilot!

I don’t think that’s being suggested at all - we all started as trainees somewhere! There are some poor qualified drivers who slip through the net, of course. In fact one was sacked from my place not so long ago.

However it’s a fact that new trainees require *far* more training than qualified drivers, who can already drive trains and just need to route learn, and that impacts massively on training and management capacity. As a trainer I’d also rather have a qualified recruit driving my train during leaf fall - if they have an operational incident it’ll be on my license.

Qualified drivers are also vetted for their safety of the line records, whereas street to seat drivers are a completely unknown quantity. In short: they’re two completely different kettles of fish.

In relation to your last sentence, I’m reliably informed that qualified pilots are also *very* different to ab initio cadets in the airline sector, so there’s a parallel there.

 

[ezywheels]

I don’t think that’s being suggested at all - we all started as trainees somewhere! There are some poor qualified drivers who slip through the net, of course. In fact one was sacked from my place not so long ago.

However it’s a fact that new trainees require *far* more training than qualified drivers, who can already drive trains and just need to route learn, and that impacts massively on training and management capacity. As a trainer I’d also rather have a qualified recruit driving my train during leaf fall - if they have an operational incident it’ll be on my license.

Qualified drivers are also vetted for their safety of the line records, whereas street to seat drivers are a completely unknown quantity. In short: they’re two completely different kettles of fish.

In relation to your last sentence, I’m reliably informed that qualified pilots are also *very* different to ab initio cadets in the airline sector, so there’s a parallel there.

I appreciate the differences in basic training length and the risks associated with your licence as a trainer when training. My point was it's about the competencies of the driver not their qualified status, and competencies and experience are not the same thing. You may be training a "street to seat" guy who is acutely aware of the threat of adhesion because he has exceptional situational awareness. Having a ticket doesn't change that. My previous life was in airline training and whilst ab initio cadets lack experience, I have trained many "qualified" but not "type rated" pilots who have had very mediocre competencies. I've even failed qualified pilots and passed ab initio cadets who were crewed together on the same type rating.
I think the overarching issue here is not who is the "better" trainee, but how badly railway recruitment is conducted. Some applicants have been in the system for over 3 years, several polmadie applicants (myself included) were told "sorry don't need you anymore," to then be told 6 months later "sorry yes we do," to now by the sound of it "sorry we don't need you again!" At every stage we have jumped through hoops, passed the "enhanced" AWC selection, took time off for selections to now be possibly dumped again, all without a thread of communication from the company. It is an absolutely appalling way to treat individuals.

 

[43066]

I think the overarching issue here is not who is the "better" trainee, but how badly railway recruitment is conducted. Some applicants have been in the system for over 3 years, several polmadie applicants (myself included) were told "sorry don't need you anymore," to then be told 6 months later "sorry yes we do," to now by the sound of it "sorry we don't need you again!" At every stage we have jumped through hoops, passed the "enhanced" AWC selection, took time off for selections to now be possibly dumped again, all without a thread of communication from the company. It is an absolutely appalling way to treat individuals.

No argument with any of that. LNER also left a few people in the lurch a few years ago, sadly.

 

[ezywheels]

No argument with any of that. LNER also left a few people in the lurch a few years ago, sadly.

It's very poor indeed. Quite an eye opener for me, and i thought the airlines were bad.

 

[Qaramllk]

I’ve just sent off an application to join the “talent pool” for Polmadie. I’m a qualified driver with another TOC at present.

Will update here if I hear anything back in the coming weeks/months. Knowing how these things work in the rail industry I’m not expecting it to be smooth or quick

 

[Grvrdvicdr]

I’ve just sent off an application to join the “talent pool” for Polmadie. I’m a qualified driver with another TOC at present.

Will update here if I hear anything back in the coming weeks/months. Knowing how these things work in the rail industry I’m not expecting it to be smooth or quick

For me personally when I went through it, it took me 10 months exactly from applying to day 1 on the course, if this helps with time scale

 

[ezywheels]

I’ve just sent off an application to join the “talent pool” for Polmadie. I’m a qualified driver with another TOC at present.

Will update here if I hear anything back in the coming weeks/months. Knowing how these things work in the rail industry I’m not expecting it to be smooth or quick

That would be brilliant thankyou, and good luck with the process. A friend at Polmadie tells me they are looking to conduct DMI's over the "next few months" with a view to take on 9 trainee drivers next year. Whether they are "trainee-trainee" drivers or "trainee-qualified" drivers would be useful to know!!

 

[Gman1974]

That would be brilliant thankyou, and good luck with hopwfully a few rraineethe process. A friend at Polmadie tells me they are looking to conduct DMI's over the "next few months" with a view to take on 9 trainee drivers next year. Whether they are "trainee-trainee" drivers or "trainee-qualified" drivers would be useful to know!!

That would be brilliant thankyou, and good luck with the process. A friend at Polmadie tells me they are looking to conduct DMI's over the "next few months" with a view to take on 9 trainee drivers next year. Whether they are "trainee-trainee" drivers or "trainee-qualified" drivers would be useful to know

Hopefully, there will be quite a few "trainee-trainee" places next year

 

[Crdif]

Scotrail have a recruitment campaign soon for 160 drivers and may be good at updating potential candidates and responding to emails

 

[ezywheels]

Scotrail have a recruitment campaign soon for 160 drivers and may be good at updating potential candidates and responding to emails

That's ironic! First time I applied Scotrail lost my application. I'm currently on my second application (the first having been lost in a software update?) having completed the tests in May, and still waiting to hear (last update October '24). Apparently they've got over 1500 applicants to wade through already according to the resourcing team. Fingers crossed.

 

[Crdif]

That's ironic! First time I applied Scotrail lost my application. I'm currently on my second application (the first having been lost in a software update?) having completed the tests in May, and still waiting to hear (last update October '24). Apparently they've got over 1500 applicants to wade through already according to the resourcing team. Fingers crossed.

Bear in mind u can only have one running at at a time with a TOC

 

[expanse]

Howdy. Long time lurker. First time poster. Wolves applicant - talent pooled since Sept 23.
I’ve had about 3 email updates since being pooled. Returned a few casual updates from my side, but no replies or even an acknowledgement of these. I’m sure others have similar stories (or worse!).
I get that planning staff moves & training in this industry is a minefield, but the lack of any real engagement after nearly 2 years in the process makes me think there is no need to take things forward any time soon. I hope I’m wrong.
Sorry to be a downer, just the way I’m feeling at this point. Maybe others are getting different vibes? Interested to know.
Thanks to everyone posting here and stay strong!

 

[Bus mechanic]

T

Howdy. Long time lurker. First time poster. Wolves applicant - talent pooled since Sept 23.
I’ve had about 3 email updates since being pooled. Returned a few casual updates from my side, but no replies or even an acknowledgement of these. I’m sure others have similar stories (or worse!).
I get that planning staff moves & training in this industry is a minefield, but the lack of any real engagement after nearly 2 years in the process makes me think there is no need to take things forward any time soon. I hope I’m wrong.
Sorry to be a downer, just the way I’m feeling at this point. Maybe others are getting different vibes? Interested to know.
Thanks to everyone posting here and stay strong!

things are definitely moving forward its just a waiting game. A few people have been put on courses recently its just about location i believe but nobody actually knows but be patient

 

[ezywheels]

Howdy. Long time lurker. First time poster. Wolves applicant - talent pooled since Sept 23.
I’ve had about 3 email updates since being pooled. Returned a few casual updates from my side, but no replies or even an acknowledgement of these. I’m sure others have similar stories (or worse!).
I get that planning staff moves & training in this industry is a minefield, but the lack of any real engagement after nearly 2 years in the process makes me think there is no need to take things forward any time soon. I hope I’m wrong.
Sorry to be a downer, just the way I’m feeling at this point. Maybe others are getting different vibes? Interested to know.
Thanks to everyone posting here and stay strong!

I just don't understand how a recruitment process that takes over 12 months, ends with you sitting in a pool for 2 years? How bad is their workforce planning? Is it being done on the back of a fag packet? Why bother advertising and getting you to apply over 2 years ago, and then not have a requirement? If nothing else it must cost the TOC money for the OPC to manage the psychological tests! Crazy way to recruit..

 

[Grvrdvicdr]

I just don't understand how a recruitment process that takes over 12 months, ends with you sitting in a pool for 2 years? How bad is their workforce planning? Is it being done on the back of a fag packet? Why bother advertising and getting you to apply over 2 years ago, and then not have a requirement? If nothing else it must cost the TOC money for the OPC to manage the psychological tests! Crazy way to recruit..

Break it down and you’ll see it’s probably a better way of doing it. Yes you want to just get in and get on with it but you need to be patient.
Think of it this way, staffing needs are constantly changing, people can leave for any number of reasons and having a nice full talent pool allows them to somewhat quickly get staff back in and trained up. If they had no talent pool and someone leaves at short notice the company would have to go through the whole process of advertising, getting the opc to assess, interview and this would take months. And they wouldn’t do any of that if they’re only looking for 1 person. They only need to employ when there’s empty spaces on the roster.

Talent pools are very common practise across the country for the railway for this reason. So if anything this shows good workforce planning as they’re planning for future needs. So like I said just be patient and relax as yes you’re in a talent pool but that doesn’t mean you have the job until you have the contract in your hand.

 

[Leon Tallis]

I just don't understand how a recruitment process that takes over 12 months, ends with you sitting in a pool for 2 years? How bad is their workforce planning? Is it being done on the back of a fag packet? Why bother advertising and getting you to apply over 2 years ago, and then not have a requirement? If nothing else it must cost the TOC money for the OPC to manage the psychological tests! Crazy way to recruit..

A talent pool is just a database of potential candidates who have expressed interest in joining the company and have been deemed qualified. A talent pool will have more potential candidates than potential vacancies. In most industries, the vast majority of people in a talent pool will not receive a job offer.

The rail industry use it so they can fill training courses at short notice if and when the need occurs. More candidates in railway talent pools appear to get offers than in other industries, presumably because the pools are smaller due to the high cost of OPC assessment. However, this sometimes leads to the mistaken belief that a railway talent pool is merely a waiting room until a candidate‘s start date. It is not.

 

[ezywheels]

A talent pool is just a database of potential candidates who have expressed interest in joining the company and have been deemed qualified. A talent pool will have more potential candidates than potential vacancies. In most industries, the vast majority of people in a talent pool will not receive a job offer.

The rail industry use it so they can fill training courses at short notice if and when the need occurs. More candidates in railway talent pools appear to get offers than in other industries, presumably because the pools are smaller due to the high cost of OPC assessment. However, this sometimes leads to the mistaken belief that a railway talent pool is merely a waiting room until a candidate‘s start date. It is not.

It's still a poor way to recruit. It shows a lack of workforce planning. It's a little bit more than "expressing and interest!" The positions were advertised as jobs, and consequently people applied. "Deemed qualified" would surely be a paper sift, basic qualifications, not the whole process?

It certainly suits the TOCs and their obvious short term hand to mouth approach to recruitment. However I know of several trainee drivers with AWC that went straight through selection, and are now route learning. No talent pool there.

I think we can all agree it's a poor way to treat people. Advertising jobs that aren't necessarily there is misleading.

 

[Sorcerer]

It's still a poor way to recruit. It shows a lack of workforce planning. It's a little bit more than "expressing and interest!" The positions were advertised as jobs, and consequently people applied. "Deemed qualified" would surely be a paper sift, basic qualifications, not the whole process?

It certainly suits the TOCs and their obvious short term hand to mouth approach to recruitment. However I know of several trainee drivers with AWC that went straight through selection, and are now route learning. No talent pool there.

I think we can all agree it's a poor way to treat people. Advertising jobs that aren't necessarily there is misleading.

Train drivers aren't like jobs such as a Starbucks barista where you can be hired and trained within weeks of someone leaving. It's a multi-year process making sure you're fit to undergo training at the cost of the TOC (I think ~£3,000 per applicant if I'm not mistaken) and there are a lot of people to carefully go through.

Therefore it benefits the TOC having enough people who have already been through the process in a talent bank so they can pick them out should the need arise. Even then it's not enough because as we've seen recently, the companies sometimes recruit qualified drivers from other TOCs to fill positions because trainees won't cut it. Avanti in particular have some of the oldest drivers on the network due for retirement soon.

Should Talent Pools be abolished?

I thought about this last night after reading through some of the posts in the thread about talent pool duration, and it had me thinking. I understand that talent pools are designed to benefit the TOCs and not the candidates because it gives them a whole pool of vetted candidates who have passed...

www.railforums.co.uk

Talent banks may have their flaws, and I myself started a discussion on it a while ago (now closed but you can still see some of the discussion and form your own opinion) but the consensus is that while they have issues that really need improvement, they are useful for the railway's needs.

 

[Leon Tallis]

I think we can all agree it's a poor way to treat people. Advertising jobs that aren't necessarily there is misleading.

But they‘re not advertising jobs. They clearly state they are building a talent pool in the ads.

Nobody is being treated poorly. If you are successful, they may offer you a position if one arises. Nothing more is promised. It would be a mistake to put your life on hold thinking you are waiting in a queue for a job that you’re entitled to.

 

[Grvrdvicdr]

It's still a poor way to recruit. It shows a lack of workforce planning. It's a little bit more than "expressing and interest!" The positions were advertised as jobs, and consequently people applied. "Deemed qualified" would surely be a paper sift, basic qualifications, not the whole process?

It certainly suits the TOCs and their obvious short term hand to mouth approach to recruitment. However I know of several trainee drivers with AWC that went straight through selection, and are now route learning. No talent pool there.

I think we can all agree it's a poor way to treat people. Advertising jobs that aren't necessarily there is misleading.

I feel like you’re just frustrated that you haven’t applied, been offered and started the job as quickly as you’d like. End of the day, the talent pool is not a job offer it just means you’ve completed all you need to in readiness to potentially be offered a job.

It’s not a poor way of treating people at all, they’ve given and paid for you to have the opportunity to sit the assessments, get interviews and be in a talent pool

The way Avanti talent pools work (confirmed to me by Recuitment while I was in a qualified driver talent pool) is if you score high results in psychometrics and high results in interview then you’d be further up the list to be offered a job. So if someone sits them tomorrow and does better than you did then they would go above you and then however many people they need they will take them from the top of the list. It is not a first come first serve, it allows the company to pick the best of the bunch when needed

So hypothetically if the list is 20 people long and number 20 did just enough to pass but they only need 15 people then numbers 20 would miss out, if then 15 people get added to the pool and all did better, then said person would still be number 20. If someone did slightly worse than number 20 then they would now become 19 so on and so fourth.

 

[ezywheels]

But they‘re not advertising jobs. They clearly state they are building a talent pool in the ads.

Nobody is being treated poorly. If you are successful, they may offer you a position if one arises. Nothing more is promised. It would be a mistake to put your life on hold thinking you are waiting in a queue for a job that you’re entitled to.

Not when I applied! It clearly stated Driver Roles, no mention whatsoever of pools! Here's a wee quote from some correspondence I received 18 months ago when I queried timescales and process...

Irene is the project lead within HR at Avanti for this recruitment, and she would like to add:
Congratulations for getting this far in the process! We received a large number of applications for our Trainee Driver roles, and we are working together with the OPC to get candidates through the process in manageable batches in line with the availability of training courses. Please bear with us at this time, we aim to share updates with you throughout the process but it may be a while between updates but please know you have not been forgotten!
Your application and interest with Avanti is still very important to us and as soon as we’re able to progress with your application, then we will do so, however it may be a few months before we can do this.

We're splitting hairs anyway, my frustration is how it's run. I'm from the airlines, and we don't use talent pools. We project growth, demand, retirements, turnover to other operators and come up with a figure for required headcount, timescale and training requirement. We then advertise and process selection in-line with this data, it's not rocket science! Talent pools are a lazy, inefficient and unnecessarily costly way for TOCs to operate IMHO. People are being treated poorly because they've invested a lot of time and effort in the process (mental and emotional) to jump through hoops, study, learn, practice, to be then left with no transparency, no communication, and no feedback, at the whim of an operator because that's how it's always been done.

 

[Horizon22]

Talent pools are a lazy, inefficient and unnecessarily costly way for TOCs to operate IMHO. People are being treated poorly because they've invested a lot of time and effort in the process (mental and emotional) to jump through hoops, study, learn, practice, to be then left with no transparency, no communication, and no feedback, at the whim of an operator because that's how it's always been done.

On the contrary I think that well-run talent pools can be very efficient; become aware of a upcoming vacanc(ies)y, offer to someone who has met the standard, set a start date accordingly and get training. The key here is "well-run". Unfortunately, railway recruitment at most companies is a handful of people so they are often not.

There are lots of assumptions regarding demand and retirements and but many of these have been up-ended post Covid.

People are being treated poorly because they've invested a lot of time and effort in the process (mental and emotional) to jump through hoops, study, learn, practice, to be then left with no transparency, no communication, and no feedback, at the whim of an operator because that's how it's always been done.

Ultimately though this is very much an employer's market - they know there are many more applicants that positions and demand will always be high so can afford to let people put in all this time and effort and poorly communicate because so many will stick around for that dream job. It's not necessarily right, but it's not like they are desperate for people or short of quality applicants.

 

[Grvrdvicdr]

I'm from the airlines

You need to realise, this isn’t the airlines. Things are done differently and ultimately you just have to accept it and wait

 

[Leon Tallis]

Not when I applied! It clearly stated Driver Roles, no mention whatsoever of pools! Here's a wee quote from some correspondence I received 18 months ago when I queried timescales and process...

Irene is the project lead within HR at Avanti for this recruitment, and she would like to add:
Congratulations for getting this far in the process! We received a large number of applications for our Trainee Driver roles, and we are working together with the OPC to get candidates through the process in manageable batches in line with the availability of training courses. Please bear with us at this time, we aim to share updates with you throughout the process but it may be a while between updates but please know you have not been forgotten!
Your application and interest with Avanti is still very important to us and as soon as we’re able to progress with your application, then we will do so, however it may be a few months before we can do this.

We're splitting hairs anyway, my frustration is how it's run. I'm from the airlines, and we don't use talent pools. We project growth, demand, retirements, turnover to other operators and come up with a figure for required headcount, timescale and training requirement. We then advertise and process selection in-line with this data, it's not rocket science! Talent pools are a lazy, inefficient and unnecessarily costly way for TOCs to operate IMHO. People are being treated poorly because they've invested a lot of time and effort in the process (mental and emotional) to jump through hoops, study, learn, practice, to be then left with no transparency, no communication, and no feedback, at the whim of an operator because that's how it's always been done.

Fair enough, I respect your point of view.

At the end of the day, it’s only one day of tests and a couple of interviews, the mental and emotional stress is primarily self-inflicted because the candidate is so keen to obtain a high-salary job with no previous experience. It’s also beneficial to have their OPC tests paid for, which can then be used in future applications with other TOCs for years afterwards.

 

[Gedphones]

Guys, I'm tentatively asking a question as I know that this being the internet I could be seriously annoying some folk with my lack of research. Anyway...... I searched "Avanti" on this forum and ended up here so here goes.. I'm currently a recently fully qualified driver for a north of the border TOC (3 years driving solo). Avanti are advertising driver jobs and I was looking for some information on their terms and conditions before applying. Also what are they like as a company to work for. As I came into my current TOC from outside I don't know if every train TOC has the same shift pattern. I assume not. I was 26 years in another industry before jumping ship so I'm wary of jumping ship again. Are there Avanti drivers lurking here? Is it a good company to work for? What's the shift pattern like? Holidays? Lieu days? Money? Any answers or links to the answers greatly appreciated.

I like working for my current employer however sometimes the jobs can be seriously tiring. The thought of longer runs with fewer stops is appealing. Just looking to see what I can find out.

Thanks.

 

[Callidus80]

Having been in the talent pool for practically 2 years now, I've seen a few rotations. The usual procedure is that we're informed of upcoming courses and then those who are selected are formally invited. Once all positions have been fulfilled, those of us who are still in the talent pool, usually receive an email advising of such and when to expect the next update.

The most recent rotation, starting with the email that we received in October informed us of the upcoming courses. However, this is where it departed with the usual procedure.

Some people were invited to courses that weren't initially advised to exist, such as the May course.
We haven't been advised that the January and March courses are now filled.
Furthermore and wih a greater degree of disappointment, we haven't received advice of when to expect the next update.

I'm not one to mither as I know these things take time, but just thought I'd reach out to see if anybody else has made any enquiries or received an email advising when the talent acquisition team intend to provide the next update.