Avanti Ticket Checks

[Parallel]

Of about the last 20 journeys on Avanti, I’ve been checked twice. One on a light loaded Saturday evening train leaving Edinburgh, and once on a Manchester - Euston service after Stoke-on-Trent. They do seem rather lax on ticket checks, unlike the TPE (Scottish routes at least) and Lumo where I’ve been checked every time I’ve used them.

 

[gray1404]

I have noticed at the based crew on Avanti of very hot on ticket checks. I notice on Euston to Liverpool services it can depend if the tickets are checked before departure if there is a ticket check before Stafford.

 

[scrapy]

In about 100 journeys I've never had my ticket checked between Preston and Wigan on Avanti then last week I had it checked both ways on the same day. Think it was RPIs as they were working in pairs rather than the guard, however anyone without a ticket was just sold one so no real incentive to buy before boarding.

 

[danm14]

Really? I cannot recall a single time (out of many dozens) I have been asked to show my (senior) railcard at any barrier.

Your mention of the type of Railcard raises an interesting question - are staff more likely to ask to see one type of Railcard than another?

I don't recall any occasion where I wasn't asked to show my 16-25 Railcard at a manual ticket inspection at Euston gateline, except of course if I was travelling on an undiscounted ticket.

My gut feeling is that a visibly disabled passenger presenting a Disabled Person's Railcard discounted ticket is probably less likely to be asked for their Railcard than an elderly passenger presenting a Senior Railcard discounted ticket, who is again less likely to be asked than a young person presenting a 16-25 Railcard discounted ticket.

I'd say if it were possible to audit this, a hierarchy with Disabled Persons' Railcards at the top and 16-17 Savers at the bottom would become apparent very quickly

 

[L401CJF]

Strangely enough, after doing the job for 20 years I personally have my own routine and system for checking tickets, which does involve going through after every stop where I can, it actually becomes quite easy to spot those who have just got on, is it infallible? No, is it pretty much effective? Yes.

You learn little things, you learn to read body language, you learn what coffee cups are from where, what part of the train people from certain stops get into and I look out at every station to get an idea of who gets on, I must be pretty effective as my sales/interactions/ticket scans are all as expected and I can't remember the last time I had a complaint that I've had to explain

I agree, when I first started I found it very difficult to figure out who I had already checked and whose I hadn't.

A year in and I've got the hang of it now. If there's only a handful of people boarding it's quite easy to know who to go to - sometimes clothing makes it easier when people board. Eg guy with red coat, girl with white hat, etc.

When doing the first check through the train, some faces just stick, some clothing stands out, but generally I picture which seats were empty and which ones were not, whos bag is whos, somebody has a drink, theyve got a laptop out. Just little things that stick! Body language is helpful too - very often you'll go through asking for tickets from X and you'll notice the one person trying to scrunch up in the seat and avoid all eye contact pretending they arnt there

 

[MalaiseForever]

I had an Avanti advance the other night from Birmingham to Euston, but missed the train as I had one too many drinks against my better judgement. So I bought an advance ticket for a later service. This wasn’t checked at all on the train or at Euston. And I actually scanned the original advance at the barriers at New Street and it worked the barriers.

 

[LowLevel]

I always think it's really clever when train staff do that. I've yet to be asked to produce my ticket twice. I always wonder how it's done. It's like a train version of The Knowledge.

I don't get it right all the time but I reckon I'm over 90% accurate. Just a mix of intuition and subconscious memory I guess.

So do you really note and remember everyone who boarded at each call and just approach them (and could you do that with an 11 car train - this was, after all, originally about Avanti), or do the poor sods who travel all the way have to produce their ticket 20 times? Or do you rely on the “tickets from X please” approach, which to me has always seemed pointless as anyone intent on avoiding paying won’t volunteer that.

I say "tickets from", but I do look at the people boarding and memorise details. If they don't respond I stand by them and address them directly with a sweet nothing like "hello" or "have I seen your ticket, sorry?".

On a local service a full ticket check at every stop is unnecessary.

 

[RPI]

I don't get it right all the time but I reckon I'm over 90% accurate. Just a mix of intuition and subconscious memory I guess.


I say "tickets from", but I do look at the people boarding and memorise details. If they don't respond I stand by them and address them directly with a sweet nothing like "hello" or "have I seen your ticket, sorry?".

On a local service a full ticket check at every stop is unnecessary.

Yes, you certainly get a system going, sometimes I walk in the coach an loudly say "Tickets please" then in a quieter voice say "from [XYZ]" and then just look at each individual person, this is obviously when just doing a call over. I always do a full check when I first board a train though.

 

[LowLevel]

Yes, you certainly get a system going, sometimes I walk in the coach an loudly say "Tickets please" then in a quieter voice say "from [XYZ]" and then just look at each individual person, this is obviously when just doing a call over. I always do a full check when I first board a train though.

Yes, I always do a full grip on boarding too. If nothing else it's helpful to know how many people you have with odd connections if things go wrong. Obscure halts on the Heart of Wales are not unusual destinations from places like Sheffield but have much potential to go wrong - I think my record bonkers re-routing was sending someone with a connection at Shrewsbury Via Swansea instead to save them some ridiculously large amount of time from a missed connection

 

[RPI]

Yes, I always do a full grip on boarding too. If nothing else it's helpful to know how many people you have with odd connections if things go wrong. Obscure halts on the Heart of Wales are not unusual destinations from places like Sheffield but have much potential to go wrong - I think my record bonkers re-routing was sending someone with a connection at Shrewsbury Via Swansea instead to save them some ridiculously large amount of time from a missed connection

Absolutely, and short platforms too, the amount of times I've boarded at Exeter heading to Cornwall, and people sat in K or L going to Hayle completely oblivious to the fact they'd need to move forward 4 or 5 coaches!

 

[Skie]

Avanti almost always check tickets before boarding at Euston.

Yep, which contributes to the scrum and makes it easy to avoid any ticket checks if you know to look at RTT

Not had my tickets checked once in the past 6 months on either leg between Liverpool and Euston.

 

[Hadders]

O

Yep, which contributes to the scrum and makes it easy to avoid any ticket checks if you know to look at RTT

Not had my tickets checked once in the past 6 months on either leg between Liverpool and Euston.

Only a handful of people are going to check RTT to avoid a ticket check. As I consistently say it’s all about taking a risk based approach to maximise revenue, checking every single ticket is not going to be cost effective.

 

[class68fan]

Well not really, if you're working a Plymouth to Paddington service that's next stop Totnes then the said person will either produce the Devonport ticket or produce no ticket (Devonport is the other way), there's also checking railcards, checking 1st class, adult on child, advance tickets on the right train.... the list goes on.

A ticket check should be done after every station regardless of what facilities exist at the last station.

By checking it mean that the return bit cannot be use more then one trip if local ticket use to get through gate.

 

[RPI]

By checking it mean that the return bit cannot be use more then one trip if local ticket use to get through gate.

???

 

[Bletchleyite]

???

I guess you'll be familiar with people using the return halves of period returns as "season tickets" if they don't get scanned/marked - this is a way to do this for longer by buying e.g. a single to Ardwick to get through the gates at Manchester Piccadilly. Wouldn't work through the manual checks at Euston though.

 

[RPI]

I guess you'll be familiar with people using the return halves of period returns as "season tickets" if they don't get scanned/marked - this is a way to do this for longer by buying e.g. a single to Ardwick to get through the gates at Manchester Piccadilly. Wouldn't work through the manual checks at Euston though.

Yes, with actual off-peak returns (not short offers) the "re-using" is probably 50/50 genuine, sometimes i scan a used ticket and the passenger has no idea as there's no indication on the app that its used!

 

[VideozVideoz]

I guess you'll be familiar with people using the return halves of period returns as "season tickets" if they don't get scanned/marked - this is a way to do this for longer by buying e.g. a single to Ardwick to get through the gates at Manchester Piccadilly. Wouldn't work through the manual checks at Euston though.

The ticket to ardwick is wasted if the guard checks tickets on the train

 

[Kite159]

By checking it mean that the return bit cannot be use more then one trip if local ticket use to get through gate.

Checking the return half of a paper open return is one thing, what counts if the guard/RPI marks it to show that it's been used.

 

[Class800]

Does marking not only show the journey has started not that the validity is used up given overnight break of journey on return leg of many off peak returns?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

My ticket was rejected at the Waterloo Barrier a little while ago, and the person who checked it manually told me that they were programmed so that all tickets only valid with a railcard were being rejected. But he still didn't ask for my railcard!

Huh? I own a railcard and not once has my railcard discounted ticket ever been rejected at a barrier.

This was at GWR managed stations, such as Oxford and Bristol Temple Meads, at TfL managed stations, such as London Paddington and those on the underground, at GTR managed stations, such as Horsham, Gatwick Airport, Brighton and various others.

However, my Advance ticket did get rejected at the barriers at both Horsham, Nottingham and London St Pancras stations. But I would imagine it's nothing to do with the railcard discount (as my mum's advance ticket, which didn't have the railcard discount, also was rejected).

The only time I've ever been asked for a railcard was onboard the train, although when the ticket inspector comes, I always present both my ticket and railcard together at the same time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Feb 2023 ==

And yet this is frequent on the GWML? Trains from Bristol to London stop at only barriered stations, yet I’ve never not had my ticket checked

I did have my ticket once checked between Chippenham and Swindon, but yes, this was the only time my ticket ever got checked on the London Paddington-Bristol Temple Meads (via Bath Spa) route.

Also, some platforms at London Paddington (such as platform 1) where some GWR trains (including those to Bristol) do depart don't have barriers

 

[MrJeeves]

Huh? I own a railcard and not once has my railcard discounted ticket ever been rejected at a barrier.

I can confirm Waterloo auto-rejects railcard discounted tickets with error 136 at peak (despite 16-25 railcards being valid pre 10am) and (I think?) a different code outside of peak times.

It's rather annoying.

 

[Mainline421]

It's not routine at Waterloo, but it does seem common for various gatelines to be set up to reject railcard discounted tickets, especially in the peak.

 

[MrJeeves]

It's not routine at Waterloo, but it does seem common for various gatelines to be set up to reject railcard discounted tickets, especially in the peak.

I mean my friend has his ticket rejected every time he travels to/from Waterloo (twice a day for work), and the four times I've travelled to/from there this month (weekends), it has also rejected my tickets. From my POV, that's enough to be routine.

 

[Benjwri]

I mean my friend has his ticket rejected every time he travels to/from Waterloo (twice a day for work), and the four times I've travelled to/from there this month (weekends), it has also rejected my tickets. From my POV, that's enough to be routine.

That's not proof it's because of the railcard though, presumably your both travelling from the same place, so it could be because of the origin of your ticket, or the type of ticket, or one of a million other reasons for it to be rejected. Is this on an E-Ticket? As far as I'm aware the scanners still can't even tell if a ticket is railcard discounted.

 

[RPI]

I can confirm Waterloo auto-rejects railcard discounted tickets with error 136 at peak (despite 16-25 railcards being valid pre 10am) and (I think?) a different code outside of peak times.

It's rather annoying.

136 is a time restriction, 135 is a "special rule" where, for example, railcard discounts are blocked.

 

[MrJeeves]

That's not proof it's because of the railcard though, presumably your both travelling from the same place, so it could be because of the origin of your ticket, or the type of ticket, or one of a million other reasons for it to be rejected. Is this on an E-Ticket? As far as I'm aware the scanners still can't even tell if a ticket is railcard discounted.

Nope, each live in different parts of the SE and travel on different lines, and across various tickets.

It has happened on Off peak and Super off peak travelcards, Boundary zone returns and normal returns to London Terminals from Dorking. Never e-ticket.

 

[JamieL]

Remarkably had my ticket checked on Avanti Glasgow to Euston twice yesterday - once after leaving Glasgow, a second time after Preston. Good to see!

 

[gabrielhj07]

I'd say if it were possible to audit this, a hierarchy with Disabled Persons' Railcards at the top and 16-17 Savers at the bottom would become apparent very quickly

I was once sat across the aisle from a chap travelling on his 16-17 saver. The OBS/whatever southern call them asked him for his saver but didn't ask me for my 16-25.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Remarkably had my ticket checked on Avanti Glasgow to Euston twice yesterday - once after leaving Glasgow, a second time after Preston. Good to see!

At the start of the journey, and then after a change of train manager at Preston, presumably?

 

[JamieL]

At the start of the journey, and then after a change of train manager at Preston, presumably?

Yes, exactly that. Quite unusual though - it caught two people out who had opted to sit in First without tickets! Perhaps Avanti have started to realise that no ticket checks at Glasgow, onboard nor Euston was encouraging some to freeload.