Avanti seat reservations

[MontyP]

I am trying to book an off-peak return to Manchester this weekend - but the Avanti website comes up with a message "There are no more seats available to reserve" and will not let me complete the booking. Can I just buy an off-peak return at the station and travel on any service on Saturday (out) / Sunday (back), accepting that I might not get a seat, or are they operating compulsory reservations and restricting non-reserved passengers on certain services?

 

[Merseysider]

Can I just buy an off-peak return at the station and travel on any service on Saturday (out) / Sunday (back)

Yes you can. Carriage C, and U if it’s 11 carriages, is unreserved.

 

[MontyP]

Yes you can. Carriage C, and U if it’s 11 carriages, is unreserved.

Thanks - that's what I thought. It's very strange, as the National Rail website is also showing some very strange fares:
- for the 1040 departure from Euston on Saturday, it is showing "No fares available for this journey"
- for the 1020 and 1120 departures, the cheapest fare shown is a First Class Off Peak at £326.20!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks - that's what I thought. It's very strange, as the National Rail website is also showing some very strange fares:
- for the 1040 departure from Euston on Saturday, it is showing "No fares available for this journey"
- for the 1020 and 1120 departures, the cheapest fare shown is a First Class Off Peak at £326.20!

It's because they are flagged as compulsory reservation, so it won't sell the train if it is full. Compulsory reservations are not actually being enforced, though (though don't put anything past the Euston gateline staff and so it'd be best to have a little slack in your journey just in case).

 

[MontyP]

It's because they are flagged as compulsory reservation, so it won't sell the train if it is full. Compulsory reservations are not actually being enforced, though (though don't put anything past the Euston gateline staff and so it'd be best to have a little slack in your journey just in case).

Very helpful, thanks.

I wonder how many people who need to travel at short notice / specific times are being caught out by this and end up paying way over the odds for tickets?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very helpful, thanks.

I wonder how many people who need to travel at short notice / specific times are being caught out by this and end up paying way over the odds for tickets?

I bet loads. Arguably a "mis-sold" First Class ticket is fraud.

What I have observed is that it's causing increased loadings on LNR which I'm sure they like!

 

[Adam Williams]

I bet loads. Arguably a "mis-sold" First Class ticket is fraud.

It's caught me out before, and I've paid for a first class advance just to guarantee getting a ticket (shortly before I needed to travel) rather than trying to work out which times I should try instead to get the tickets I actually wanted (most of the services on the day had the same problem in terms of being ""full"" according to RARS, but half-empty on arrival). I also wasn't familiar with the exact restrictions on e.g. the off-peak fare, and I'd have had to have spent time looking this up. Complete waste of money, and it was for a Covid vaccine clinical trial visit - so it ultimately came out of the clinical research budget, which made it much worse in my eyes.

The TOCs know the customer experience is poor though, and they persist in keeping the timetable flag set (and no, throwing in some counted place reservations on top to confuse things even more doesn't make it better). I also think it puts third-party retailers at a disadvantage vs ticket office sales.

 

[MontyP]

It's caught me out before, and I've paid for a first class advance just to guarantee getting a ticket (shortly before I needed to travel) rather than trying to work out which times I should try instead to get the tickets I actually wanted (most of the services on the day had the same problem in terms of being ""full"" according to RARS, but half-empty on arrival). I also wasn't familiar with the exact restrictions on e.g. the off-peak fare, and I'd have had to have spent time looking this up. Complete waste of money, and it was for a Covid vaccine clinical trial visit - so it ultimately came out of the clinical research budget, which made it much worse in my eyes.

The TOCs know the customer experience is poor though, and they persist in keeping the timetable flag set (and no, throwing in some counted place reservations on top to confuse things even more doesn't make it better). I also think it puts third-party retailers at a disadvantage vs ticket office sales.

And to make matters worse, when you follow the link on the National Rail website to find out the validity for Off Peak tickets, it refers to online journey planners - which as we've just discussed, don't give an accurate view of validity, just of availability of reservable seats!

I'm sure there used to be a very simple description of the validity of off-peak tickets (not valid on any train arriving in London before 0959 / departing London between 1600-1859 on weekdays, that sort of thing) but I can't find it anymore! I guess I'd need to know the restriction code on an Off Peak return from London to Manchester to look this up in the fares database.

 

[robbeech]

Very helpful, thanks.

I wonder how many people who need to travel at short notice / specific times are being caught out by this and end up paying way over the odds for tickets?

Lots. 7 figure sums no doubt.

I bet loads. Arguably a "mis-sold" First Class ticket is fraud.

What I have observed is that it's causing increased loadings on LNR which I'm sure they like!

Fraud is allowed on the railway, if you’re an operator. If you’re a passenger then fraud is ENCOURAGED by giving out incorrect information and then prosecuting at a later date.

 

[plugwash]

https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=MAN&dest=EUS&grpo=0438&grpd=1072&tkt=SVR

Assuming you are planning to travel on the west coast mainline, restrictions only apply on Mondays to Thursdays currently (normally they would apply monday to Friday, but the friday evening restrictions were suspended a while back to reduce overcrowding and it seems the friday morning ones have now gone too).

 

[Jimini]

Interesting topic. Anecdotal feedback from me -- not only is the mandatory reservation thing a PITA (pain in the arse), when we're staying in Coventry and trying to collect prepaid tickets, the new ticket machines use the same logic. Couple that with the fact that they've gone from (I think) about ten ticket machines down to three, which is a p*ss take in itself, the queue is bonkers most days because people are just trying to buy a return ticket to Brum etc., but now have to go through all the faff of trying to find a train with an available seat before it'll let them buy one. All we want to do is find an available machine, punch in the eight character reference number, and get on the train..

In summary:

a) In Avanti world, why can you no longer just walk up to a TVM and buy a walk on fare to a popular destination (BHM / MKC etc.) without having to fanny around trying to get a seat reservation (I know the obvious answer to this but until Avanti put in the new ticket machines it would never have been a problem)?

b) Why has Coventry station ticket office gone from ten TVMs down to three?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In summary:

a) In Avanti world, why can you no longer just walk up to a TVM and buy a walk on fare to a popular destination without having to fanny around trying to get a seat reservation (I know the obvious answer to this but until Avanti put in the new ticket machines it would never have been a problem)?

b) Why has Coventry station ticket office gone from ten TVMs down to three?

Similar issue at Preston (Lancs) last month.

 

[gordonthemoron]

b) Why has Coventry station ticket office gone from ten TVMs down to three?

I had to pick up some tickets from Glasgow Central in August, the touchscreens on the Avanti TVMs didn't work, so the ticket counter printed them for me instead. Quite why I had to collect tickets in the first place is another puzzler

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting topic. Anecdotal feedback from me -- not only is the mandatory reservation thing a PITA (pain in the arse), when we're staying in Coventry and trying to collect prepaid tickets, the new ticket machines use the same logic. Couple that with the fact that they've gone from (I think) about ten ticket machines down to three, which is a p*ss take in itself, the queue is bonkers most days because people are just trying to buy a return ticket to Brum etc., but now have to go through all the faff of trying to find a train with an available seat before it'll let them buy one. All we want to do is find an available machine, punch in the eight character reference number, and get on the train..

In summary:

a) In Avanti world, why can you no longer just walk up to a TVM and buy a walk on fare to a popular destination (BHM / MKC etc.) without having to fanny around trying to get a seat reservation (I know the obvious answer to this but until Avanti put in the new ticket machines it would never have been a problem)?

b) Why has Coventry station ticket office gone from ten TVMs down to three?

I don't deny there are problems there, and in a sensible country there'd be a separate machine selling tickets for travel within the PTE area as well, e.g. to Brum.

The reason for the planner based UIs is that they decomplicate what is a very complex system. They also allow for Advances issued on the day, which classic ones don't.

However, silly question...if you are "punching in an eight character reference" why aren't you just using an e-ticket? Almost everything from Cov can be issued as one, unless you're crossing London.

For what it's worth at least some of the planner based TVMs (it might be Chiltern's, I forget) allow you to press a button to go to "expert mode" and buy without selecting a train. Maybe that should be added to Avanti's.

 

[Haywain]

Quite why I had to collect tickets in the first place is another puzzler

Because you'd purchased something that couldn't be fulfilled by other methods, or you'd chosen that method of delivery?

 

[Jim the Jim]

However, silly question...if you are "punching in an eight character reference" why aren't you just using an e-ticket?

In my case because my home printer is extremely unreliable, and I have had bad experiences with my phone running out of power during an hours-long trip, or even refusing to stay turned on when fully charged. The ticket machine is easily the most reliable and least stressful option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my case because my home printer is extremely unreliable, and I have had bad experiences with my phone running out of power during an hours-long trip, or even refusing to stay turned on when fully charged. The ticket machine is easily the most reliable and least stressful option.

BSYYO Power Bank,10000mAh 4.8A 3 USB Port Portable Charger,USB-C Input Fast Charging Power Bank,External Battery Pack Phone Changer for iphone 12 X XS 8 Plus Google Samsung LG iPad and More : Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo

Free delivery and returns on eligible orders. Buy BSYYO Power Bank,10000mAh 4.8A 3 USB Port Portable Charger,USB-C Input Fast Charging Power Bank,External Battery Pack Phone Changer for iphone 12 X XS 8 Plus Google Samsung LG iPad and More at Amazon UK.

smile.amazon.co.uk

(BSYYO Power Bank,10000mAh 4.8A 3 USB Port Portable Charger,USB-C Input Fast Charging Power Bank,External Battery Pack Phone Changer for iphone 12 X XS 8 Plus Google Samsung LG iPad and More, cost £12.99, available for delivery today by 10pm - note this was a random search and not a recommendation of that specific item, but you get the idea)

Problem solved.

(If your phone "refuses to stay on while fully charged", you need to get a replacement - that makes it fairly useless and is not something that has ever happened to any phone I have owned other than a very early one I had over 10 years ago which tended to overheat)

But weren't you talking about returns to Birmingham?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Because you'd purchased something that couldn't be fulfilled by other methods, or you'd chosen that method of delivery?

I wasn't given an option, it was a Standard Premium Advance, which I've had as an e-ticket on other occasions, all bought from Avanti website or app

 

[MontyP]

https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=MAN&dest=EUS&grpo=0438&grpd=1072&tkt=SVR

Assuming you are planning to travel on the west coast mainline, restrictions only apply on Mondays to Thursdays currently (normally they would apply monday to Friday, but the friday evening restrictions were suspended a while back to reduce overcrowding and it seems the friday morning ones have now gone too).

Thanks for all the advice.

In the end we caught a mid-morning train from Euston (one of the trains that was showing as unreservable on the journey planner), the train was about half-full. Who are all the people with reserved seats who don't turn up?

 

[Jimini]

I don't deny there are problems there, and in a sensible country there'd be a separate machine selling tickets for travel within the PTE area as well, e.g. to Brum.

The reason for the planner based UIs is that they decomplicate what is a very complex system. They also allow for Advances issued on the day, which classic ones don't.

However, silly question...if you are "punching in an eight character reference" why aren't you just using an e-ticket? Almost everything from Cov can be issued as one, unless you're crossing London.

For what it's worth at least some of the planner based TVMs (it might be Chiltern's, I forget) allow you to press a button to go to "expert mode" and buy without selecting a train. Maybe that should be added to Avanti's.

They’re ordered through a corporate portal that only issues paper tickets via print on departure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They’re ordered through a corporate portal that only issues paper tickets via print on departure.

Your company needs to find a better provider, then. And a provider that doesn't offer e-tickets on flows where they work deserves to lose all their business.

I'm increasingly of the view that the railway just needs to retire ToD, it causes more problems than it is worth. Those who do not wish to own a smartphone nor a printer, nor know anyone with a printer, can purchase their tickets at the station, including at one of these new TVMs.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Your company needs to find a better provider, then.

at least MKC doesn't seem to have a problem printing tickets

 

[Merseysider]

Who are all the people with reserved seats who don't turn up?

Presumably some will be punters “forced” to select a service they have no intention of catching, purely to obtain a walk-up ticket...