Avanti rejected Delay Repay

[BigCj34]

Avanti being themselves have rejected my delay repay claim for travel on July 23, and only informed me of this recently. The travel was:

1055 Workington
1144 Carlisle

1152 Carlisle
1308 Glasgow Central

For travel on Sat 23 July

This was delayed by over an hour as the 1152 service was cancelled and had to take an alternative route via Ayrshire, so arrived over 1 hour later around 1434. This has been their latest response.

Dear Mr. Murray,

Thank you for getting back in contact with Avanti West Coast regarding Delay Repay.

We would like to apologise for the length of time that it has taken for a resolution from us regarding the disruption that you faced. We have had an increase in customer contact due to the mass disruption across the network.

As previously mentioned, the first service that you boarded arrived at 11:52 with a 8 minute delay, the connection time to Carlisle is 8 minutes, resulting in 12:00.

As the first leg of your journey was operated by Northern Rail, you will need to seek compensation directly from them as they caused the initial delay to your journey.

I'm aware that this isn't the outcome that you were hoping for and we're sorry to disappoint on this occasion.

Thanks for getting in touch.

Yours sincerely,

So apparently I need to claim with Northern, reason being that their service from Workington arrived 8 minutes late at 1152, the connection time is 8 minutes and therefore would have missed the 1152 connection anyway that Avanti cancelled. They also cancelled the subsequent 1248 service, where I could have arrived at 1403 if it ran, and have arrived under an hour late.

Apart from the poor grammar in the response ins the email, all I am inferring is the late arrival of the Northern service means I would have missed the connection had the Avanti service run to schedule when the 8 minute connection time is factored in. However the late Northern arrival means I missed a connection that did not exist because it was cancelled. I actually cannot remember at what point the Avanti service was announced cancelled after being announced delayed. So who is responsible? This is very Kafka-esque!

I will try Northern in the meantime, but no doubt they will blame Avanti!

EDIT: Ayrshire, not Ayr

 

[Hadders]

Northern is responsible. This is because their train was delayed and this delay would’ve meant you missed the Avanti train had it operated.

The problem you are going to have is that more than 28 days have passed since the date of the journey so technically you are too late to make a claim with Northern. Avanti are supposed to pass the details to Northern in these circumstances.

I think you will need to log this with Northern’s customer services department, quoting Avanti’s case reference number and their reply. Hopefully someone sensible at Northern will deal with it.

 

[Watershed]

Avanti being themselves have rejected my delay repay claim for travel on July 23, and only informed me of this recently. The travel was:

1055 Workington
1144 Carlisle

1152 Carlisle
1308 Glasgow Central

For travel on Sat 23 July

This was delayed by over an hour as the 1152 service was cancelled and had to take an alternative route via Ayr, so arrived over 1 hour later around 1434. This has been their latest response.


So apparently I need to claim with Northern, reason being that their service from Workington arrived 8 minutes late at 1152, the connection time is 8 minutes and therefore would have missed the 1152 connection anyway that Avanti cancelled. They also cancelled the subsequent 1248 service, where I could have arrived at 1403 if it ran, and have arrived under an hour late.

Apart from the poor grammar in the response ins the email, all I am inferring is the late arrival of the Northern service means I would have missed the connection had the Avanti service run to schedule when the 8 minute connection time is factored in. However the late Northern arrival means I missed a connection that did not exist because it was cancelled. I actually cannot remember at what point the Avanti service was announced cancelled after being announced delayed. So who is responsible? This is very Kafka-esque!

I will try Northern in the meantime, but no doubt they will blame Avanti!

Avanti are correct - although the delay in processing your claim is appalling, and they should be passing your claim onto Northern, who are the operator liable.

It's up to you how you proceed, but I would contact Avanti and ask them to pass your claim onto Northern on your behalf, as they are required to do under condition 33.2 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

If you have a claim or a complaint about your journey, the Train Company you contact will help you either by dealing with the matter itself or by passing it on to the relevant Train Company, Rail Service Provider or other third party(s) or person(s) providing the goods or services in question

Northern is responsible. This is because their train was delayed and this delay would’ve meant you missed the Avanti train had it operated.

The problem you are going to have is that more than 28 days have passed since the date of the journey so technically you are too late to make a claim with Northern. Avanti are supposed to pass the details to Northern in these circumstances.

I think you will need to log this with Northern’s customer services department, quoting Avanti’s case reference number and their reply. Hopefully someone sensible at Northern will deal with it.

I don't think that this is the case. The 28 day period applies to when the claim must initially be lodged but NRCoT 33.2 says that your claim will be forwarded to the relevant TOC. By lodging his claim with Avanti, the OP complied with the 28 day requirement.

In any event, even if the OP had been out of time to make a Delay Repay claim, they would still be entitled to a minimum level of compensation (25%) under the PRO, which has no time limit so it's simply a matter of the statute of limitations (6 years).

 

[mangyiscute]

since op wouldve been delayed by less than an hour if the avanti service at 1248 had run, surely both Avanti and northern have a liability to pay some delay repay
I had a similar situation recently where I was travelling from Preston to Oxford - avanti cancelled the preston to Wolverhampton train, which gave me an hour delay, and then cross country cancelled the wolverhampton to oxford train, which delayed me by a further hour, so i arrived at oxford just over 2 hours late.
I am therefore due to 100% delay repay (it was a return ticket), but who should I claim from, since each TOC caused an hour delay so neither should be liable to pay the full delay repay?

 

[AlterEgo]

since op wouldve been delayed by less than an hour if the avanti service at 1248 had run, surely both Avanti and northern have a liability to pay some delay repay

No, not at all.

Northern are responsible for the full amount under the rules of the scheme.

Avanti should have forwarded the claim to Northern instead of batting the customer back like this.

 

[Hadders]

I don't think that this is the case. The 28 day period applies to when the claim must initially be lodged but NRCoT 33.2 says that your claim will be forwarded to the relevant TOC. By lodging his claim with Avanti, the OP complied with the 28 day requirement.

Agreed. But we’re talking about Northern who I suspect will try and wriggle out of everything.

If the OP goes back to Avanti then they’re likely to have to wait another 3 months before they get round to dealing with it and sending it on to Northern. If the OP goes direct to Northern then they’ll likely say out of time.

I’m sure this will get resolved eventually but sadly I suspect it won’t be quick.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2022 ==

since op wouldve been delayed by less than an hour if the avanti service at 1248 had run, surely both Avanti and northern have a liability to pay some delay repay
I had a similar situation recently where I was travelling from Preston to Oxford - avanti cancelled the preston to Wolverhampton train, which gave me an hour delay, and then cross country cancelled the wolverhampton to oxford train, which delayed me by a further hour, so i arrived at oxford just over 2 hours late.
I am therefore due to 100% delay repay (it was a return ticket), but who should I claim from, since each TOC caused an hour delay so neither should be liable to pay the full delay repay?

This isn’t how delay repay works.

The train company that causes the first delay are responsible for settling the claim. If there are further delays with another train company, after the first delay occurs, the first company is still responsible for the claim.

This might seem unfair but it evens itself out in the end.

 

[mangyiscute]

interesting, i never knew it all came down to the first company

 

[Mcr Warrior]

...had to take an alternative route via Ayr, so arrived over 1 hour later around 1434.

The "alternative route" via Ayr seems a particularly long detour to get from Carlisle to Glasgow Central.

Or did the OP possibly mean via Ayrshire (i.e. Kilmarnock) rather than via Ayr?

 

[BigCj34]

The "alternative route" via Ayr seems a particularly long detour to get from Carlisle to Glasgow Central.

Or did the OP possibly mean via Ayrshire (i.e. Kilmarnock) rather than via Ayr?

Thank you, yes Ayrshire and indeed Kilmarnock.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Thank you, yes Ayrshire and indeed Kilmarnock.

It's a nice alternative route, but relatively slow, so not so good if you're already delayed or are in a bit of a hurry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

interesting, i never knew it all came down to the first company

Yep, that is the rule. It is always the first TOC that had a delay that had, or in the case of a cancellation would have had, an impact on your arrival time.