Avanti passenger without a ticket - how is payment enforced?

[Pemberton]

During the ticket check on an Avanti service from Birmingham New Street to London Euston today, the youthful male across the aisle couldn't produce a ticket. He was given the choice of an onboard fare, I think a figure around £45 was mentioned, or alternatively paying at Euston, I think a figure of around £100 was given for that option. The male replied that he had no money.

As I got off the train at Euston, I saw the youth, firstly hanging back and then when he saw the barriers were indeed in operation he doubled back in the other direction along the platform going who knows where.

As I went through the barriers the Train Manager was waiting and I updated her on where I had seen the youth heading. She said he would have to come through the barriers eventually though she couldn't stand there looking for him much longer due to her schedule.

It just got me thinking that he could wait for the next train load of people and possibly tailgate someone through the barriers.

Isn't there a better method of enforcement onboard, maybe taking a name and address for instance, or was best practice followed?

 

[Hadders]

What do you suggest. Remember that onboard staff:

Are effectively working alone
Do not want to delay the train
Have other duties beyond revenue

Also, the person could simply give false details (there is no requirement to carry ID in the UK)

I’m not saying more couldn’t or shouldn’t be done but this sort of thing is never as simple as people make out.

 

[Pemberton]

I'm just asking a question and have not suggested it's simple to resolve, nor am I naive enough to think that anything other than a false name might have been given. I just left the station with the distinct impression that the youth had probably got a free ride and wondered if there basically was a specific on-board procedure.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Suppose if the train manager was sufficiently hacked off, they could always phone ahead and arrange for a revenue protection "reception committee" to intercept the individual upon arrival at London Euston. Perhaps?

 

[Watershed]

Suppose if the train manager was sufficiently hacked off, they could always phone ahead and arrange for a revenue protection "reception committee" to intercept the individual upon arrival at London Euston. Perhaps?

Backed up by the British Transport Police, of course. I'm slightly surprised they didn't do so, to be honest - seen it happen plenty of times at Euston. Usually the officers (in a gang of 3 or 4) tend to approach the train as it arrives.

 

[LYradial]

It is a sad reflection on the society that we have created, to which there is no acceptable solution.

 

[Hadders]

Fare evasion has happened for years. Arguably we’re more aware of it these days and it is frustrating when fare paying passengers see it happen.

There are many different tactics that train companies need to employ to collect as much revenue as possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

During the ticket check on an Avanti service from Birmingham New Street to London Euston today, the youthful male across the aisle couldn't produce a ticket. He was given the choice of an onboard fare, I think a figure around £45 was mentioned, or alternatively paying at Euston, I think a figure of around £100 was given for that option. The male replied that he had no money.

Presumably the guard was offering an Off Peak Single but the suggestion was that an Anytime Single would be charged if caught on arrival - Avanti isn't a Penalty Fares TOC (which is perhaps surprising given that all stations it serves are staffed). I guess their Anytimes are swingeing enough without adding 50 quid to them!

 

[camflyer]

At Cambridge yesterday I saw a group of 4 youths force their way through the barriers (they were all quite thin so squeezed through) and the staff on duty just shrugged and let them go. I appreciate that they need to take their personal safety into account but it was still frustrating to see.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At Cambridge yesterday I saw a group of 4 youths force their way through the barriers (they were all quite thin so squeezed through) and the staff on duty just shrugged and let them go. I appreciate that they need to take their personal safety into account but it was still frustrating to see.

I don't wholly understand why we don't employ security staff on gatelines who are paid for the risk and specifically tasked with apprehending and removing such people (who don't just dodge fares, but also often engage in other antisocial behaviour). Every single nightclub does.

 

[Dirty_Mac]

I don't wholly understand why we don't employ security staff on gatelines who are paid for the risk and specifically tasked with apprehending and removing such people (who don't just dodge fares, but also often engage in other antisocial behaviour). Every single nightclub does.

Cost/benefit analysis most likely. Just like how not every station has a gateline.

 

[Alex C.]

I don't wholly understand why we don't employ security staff on gatelines who are paid for the risk and specifically tasked with apprehending and removing such people (who don't just dodge fares, but also often engage in other antisocial behaviour). Every single nightclub does.

I don't think this is really practical - most nightclubs (and many pubs) will have a number of trained SIA licensed security staff able to respond to a call for assistance, laid out in their licensing conditions and based on a local risk assessment. They're also often located in urban areas where there is a police presence (and where not, I suspect conditions would include additional security).

To make it work at all, and to please the unions I think you'd reasonably need 2 security trained staff per gate line. That's going to increase costs significantly and I doubt it would break even when factoring in the additional fares paid. Unlike a nightclub, they're not going to be turning people away or throwing them out at the destination, they're going to be essentially imprisoning them until they provide details which carries a number of liabilities the TOC is not going to want to have. If they're agency staff then they'll need to be SIA licensed.

It is somewhat workable at Termini and major stations, perhaps on the basis of having some additional security trained staff but I suspect most already do this. Waterloo for instance has standard gateline staff manning every barrier, then several RPIs working to deal with ticketing issues but these are spread out and it's easy to find a wide exit gate where the attendant is distracted and tailgate through.

The best solution is probably targeted enforcement activity, particularly aimed at these types of offender (rather than the easy pickings of expired rail cards for example), but the underlying cause is more social acceptance of low level fraud (a huge percentage of people these days would be happy to add a few items onto a legitimate insurance claim because they see it as victimless as an example away from transport). Not an easy one to fix though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think this is really practical - most nightclubs (and many pubs) will have a number of trained SIA licensed security staff able to respond to a call for assistance, laid out in their licensing conditions and based on a local risk assessment. They're also often located in urban areas where there is a police presence (and where not, I suspect conditions would include additional security).

Sounds like a major railway station to me!

 

[plugwash]

Avanti isn't a Penalty Fares TOC

I could be wrong here, but the impression I get is that train operators in the UK can be broadly divided into a few categories based on which part of British rail most of their services were inherited from.

primerally ex network southeast (southeastern, SWR, GTR etc )
primerally ex regional railways (Northern, TFW, Scotrail)
primerally ex intercity (LNER, Crosscountry, Avanti)
mixed regional and intercity (EMR, GWR)
merseyrail

My understanding is that

* Mersyrail and most if not all of the ex network southeast TOCs had penalty fares since the BR era.
* The "regional" and "mixed" TOCs in england and wales brought in penalty fares relatively recently.
* The TOCs that are purely ex intercity still don't have penalty fares, presumablly they don't feel they need them.

I guess their Anytimes are swingeing enough without adding 50 quid to them!

mmm

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail didn't have Penalty Fares until the 2000s.

 

[Starmill]

Sounds like a major railway station to me!

I believe Southeastern's Byelaw enforcement officers are trained in the use of proportionate force, and are in house staff. They can support revenue staff in the way you're thinking of. Of course there aren't exactly a lot of them for the area covered.

Most railway staff are told they mustn't use force, proportionate or no.

 

[big_dirt]

Such force, as bouncers are trained for, is to get people off the premises with a minimum of fuss, rather than detaining them.

I think the lad in the original comment would have been delighted to have left the railway property with a minimum of fuss.

 

[davetheguard]

The male replied that he had no money.

If he's travelling without the ability to actually pay, surely that's fraud, and a case for prosecution? The BTP or revenue protection shouild have been summoned.

 

[AlterEgo]

If he's travelling without the ability to actually pay, surely that's fraud, and a case for prosecution? The BTP or revenue protection shouild have been summoned.

It is not a fraud.

 

[43066]

If he's travelling without the ability to actually pay, surely that's fraud, and a case for prosecution? The BTP or revenue protection shouild have been summoned.

It’s almost certain that some offence will have been committed (albeit not fraud). However, as noted above, the issue is one of enforcement. Revenue protection are instructed not to use force, or put themselves at risk of violence, so they would in practice be unable to prevent the person from simply pushing through the barriers and leaving.

BTP would be able to arrest the person if they refused to provide details, but there aren’t that many of them, and if you (conservatively!) assume one “dodgy character” per train arriving at Euston, you can see why it’s never going to be feasible to stop everyone.

I believe Southeastern's Byelaw enforcement officers are trained in the use of proportionate force, and are in house staff. They can support revenue staff in the way you're thinking of. Of course there aren't exactly a lot of them for the area covered.

Most railway staff are told they mustn't use force, proportionate or no.

SE’s REOs can certainly remove people, yes. I’m not sure what the policy is on detaining suspected fare dodgers, though. I’d imagine company policy is against this due to the increased risk, not to mention potential consequences if they were to get it wrong.