Avanti "Mandatory Reservations"

[Andy Pacer]

This has probably been debated before but I've had a look through some threads and can't find it specifically.

Just been looking back through some old tickets of mine to satisfy my curiosity, I had a super off peak return MKC - EUS on Sat 29 June which is obviously flexible and there are no Saturday usage restrictions.

What has got my attention is the 'mandatory reservation' applied. Presumably in practice this isn't actually mandatory and only assigned because of how the journeys are set up in the industry systems? What I'm getting at is I assume I could have travelled at a different time on the same day if I wanted to? (The only booked train only tickets being Advance?)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Should have been perfectly fine on all other (MKC->EUS) services with Avanti on the Saturday that the ticket was valid on, although you obviously wouldn't have had a seat reservation on any other Avanti service than the 0644.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Should have been perfectly fine on all other Avanti services on the Saturday that the ticket was valid on, although you obviously wouldn't have had a seat reservation on any other Avanti service than the 0644.

Thanks that's what I thought.

 

[Watershed]

It's a highly misleading piece of phrasing TBH. What it means is "this train is shown as reservations mandatory in the timetable data and we've given you a reservation for it".

It's still a walk-up ticket and so you can take any train that meets the ticket's time and route restrictions (i.e. any Avanti service that day, as 29 June was a Saturday and the aptly named restriction code MK only applies Mon-Fri).

There are no daytime British trains which are truly reservations compulsory. Several operators including Avanti, LNER, Hull Trains and Grand Central mark their trains as such, having snuck this unhelpful practice in during Covid. Bit if there is space for you to board, you can do so regardless of whether you have a reservation; obviously no guarantee of a seat without a reservation.

 

[Andy Pacer]

It's a highly misleading piece of phrasing TBH. What it means is "this train is shown as reservations mandatory in the timetable data and we've given you a reservation for it".

It's still a walk-up ticket and so you can take any train that meets the ticket's time and route restrictions (i.e. any Avanti service that day, as 29 June was a Saturday and the aptly named restriction code MK only applies Mon-Fri).

There are no daytime British trains which are truly reservations compulsory. Several operators including Avanti, LNER, Hull Trains and Grand Central mark their trains as such, having snuck this unhelpful practice in during Covid. Bit if there is space for you to board, you can do so regardless of whether you have a reservation; obviously no guarantee of a seat without a reservation.

Thanks for that added info, much appreciated. I thought it was the case and had recently noticed on Real Time Trains that Avanti services were showing as Reservations Compulsory so assumed it was in some way connected to that.

 

[STINT47]

Why not list ot as an optional reservation? Would avoid people believing that they're tied to that specific train

 

[Watershed]

Why not list ot as an optional reservation? Would avoid people believing that they're tied to that specific train

That would certainly be a lot clearer. If I have time I'll look up the RDG specification, it may be that the industry accreditation rules for retailers require that text if the itinerary contains "reservations mandatory" trains, ignoring the possibility of using such a train with a walk-up ticket.

 

[Adam Williams]

That would certainly be a lot clearer. If I have time I'll look up the RDG specification, it may be that the industry accreditation rules for retailers require that text if the itinerary contains "reservations mandatory" trains, ignoring the possibility of using such a train with a walk-up ticket.

I don't think it's as clear cut as that in the spec.

I didn't implement it in the way that the screenshot shows, in any case. I only use that text for Advance tickets (and it got accredited). Anything else is misleading IMO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not list ot as an optional reservation? Would avoid people believing that they're tied to that specific train

The reason it's done (possibly aside from LNER whose management genuinely seem to want to run a ground level airline) is to allow individual trains to be put on and off sale granularly. If you set reservations recommended then that isn't possible.

It really does need properly fixing.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The reason it's done...

...is to allow individual trains to be put on and off sale granularly. If you set reservations recommended then that isn't possible.

What does that actually mean, in slightly plainer English?

 

[MrJeeves]

What does that actually mean, in slightly plainer English?

TOCs abuse other features in the railway data to make up for their own lack of future planning or to artificially shape traffic on their services.

If they enforce a reservations to be able to buy a ticket for a service, they can artificially move passengers onto other services by faking them being fully booked, and hence not even allowing flexible tickets to be bought with an itinerary on that service.

Likewise, they can combine these features with the options they can impose in the reservations system to block customers reserving seats (and hence buying tickets) for short hop journeys (or to stop them buying tickets for these short hops on a busy service), like what CrossCountry have done for select services between Birmingham and Wolverhampton to try to force customers onto WMT/TfW services instead.

 

[PeterC]

TOCs abuse other features in the railway data to make up for their own lack of future planning or to artificially shape traffic on their services.

If they enforce a reservations to be able to buy a ticket for a service, they can artificially move passengers onto other services by faking them being fully booked, and hence not even allowing flexible tickets to be bought with an itinerary on that service.

Go the other way and we will get the "outrage" in the Daily Mail over TOCs selling flexible tickets against an itinerary that they "know" to be fully booked.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If they enforce a reservations to be able to buy a ticket for a service, they can artificially move passengers onto other services by faking them being fully booked, and hence not even allowing flexible tickets to be bought with an itinerary on that service.

Even for end-to-end journeys with 'flexible' tickets? Doesn't that then mean that the train is essentially carting around fresh air for much of its journey?

 

[MrJeeves]

Even for end-to-end journeys with 'flexible' tickets? Doesn't that then mean that the train is essentially carting around fresh air for much of its journey?

Yes, it could very well be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, it could very well be.

Due to the very poor way in which Avanti manages it, they do indeed seem to be turning people away while running a lot of services considerably under capacity, particularly 11 car sets which have a lot of unreserved seats.

LNER (for their sins) seem to manage things far better.

 

[iht]

It's a highly misleading piece of phrasing TBH. What it means is "this train is shown as reservations mandatory in the timetable data and we've given you a reservation for it".

It's still a walk-up ticket and so you can take any train that meets the ticket's time and route restrictions (i.e. any Avanti service that day, as 29 June was a Saturday and the aptly named restriction code MK only applies Mon-Fri).

There are no daytime British trains which are truly reservations compulsory. Several operators including Avanti, LNER, Hull Trains and Grand Central mark their trains as such, having snuck this unhelpful practice in during Covid. Bit if there is space for you to board, you can do so regardless of whether you have a reservation; obviously no guarantee of a seat without a reservation.

It's a ridiculous rule, on a busy train, people are walking up and down looking for an unreserved seat whilst the people with the reservations for those seats are walking up and down a different train because they aren't on the train they've got reservations for. Meanwhile the old lady who has no concept of advance ticketing and has turned up at the station and paid three hundred quid for her return to Euston can't stay in her seat because it's reserved by a tech savvy student whose paid a tenner. But, we're only 30 years into privatisation so I suppose, like Brexit, the benefits are just round the corner

 

[Haywain]

It's a ridiculous rule, on a busy train, people are walking up and down looking for an unreserved seat whilst the people with the reservations for those seats are walking up and down a different train because they aren't on the train they've got reservations for. Meanwhile the old lady who has no concept of advance ticketing and has turned up at the station and paid three hundred quid for her return to Euston can't stay in her seat because it's reserved by a tech savvy student whose paid a tenner. But, we're only 30 years into privatisation so I suppose, like Brexit, the benefits are just round the corner

The situation you describe has been around for many years and relates much more to the encouragement to reserve a seat (particularly when booking online) than to mandatory reservations. It is just as likely to occur on CrossCountry or Great Western as on Avanti or LNER.

 

[bollocksouwan]

I have suffered the same problem on Avanti when wanting to purchase off peak tickets. Hence I went onto London Northwestern, and not only were there freely available off peak tickets, there were still some cheaper advance tickets! Avanti shooting themselves in the foot by having a dysfunctional web site.

 

[jack31439]

Having a similar issue today where trying to get a train out of Euston this afternoon, 15:30, shows as unavailable. Most ticket sellers simply will not allow that itinerary, whereas I know I can buy a ticket from a machine or office that will allow me to travel on that train. This shouldn't be 'hidden' knowledge and a secret work around, either the tickets are available or they are not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having a similar issue today where trying to get a train out of Euston this afternoon, 15:30, shows as unavailable. Most ticket sellers simply will not allow that itinerary, whereas I know I can buy a ticket from a machine or office that will allow me to travel on that train. This shouldn't be 'hidden' knowledge and a secret work around, either the tickets are available or they are not.

Be careful what you ask for, as the likely outcome isn't removal of the ruse, it's making reservations actually compulsory and enforced. Or the LNER style pricing scheme where unreserved travel is unaffordable (and reserved travel is much more expensive).