Avanti Holyhead services recent poor timekeeping

[WesternLancer]

Hi all - I'm not familiar with this route so welcome gen from people that are.

An overseas friend of mine is coming to the UK and travelling London Dublin via Holyhead and asked for me advice on the rail element. That was straightforward but looking at recent Avanti services timekeeping looks pretty poor on this route having looked at a few Real time trains entries for services over last few evenings.

Is this normal at the moment?
Anyone have any thoughts as to reasons why?

Person concerned will be travelling mid week next week probably departing London in the afternoon. Should they be expecting 20 to 50 minute delays

I've warned them not to make tight ferry connections in their planning!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Today's main boat train (0902 Euston-Holyhead) and return (1448 Holyhead-Euston) were only 5 and 10 minutes late respectively at the end of their journeys.
The Up train was delayed through Chester, so nothing to do with the train itself.
The afternoon Holyhead service (1502 from Euston) ran about 10 late to Crewe, then 20-25 late on to Holyhead - that might have been a changeover problem (electric to diesel).

No trains were cancelled today, but the most troubling problem since half the service went over to class 805 operation has been service cancellation or turning short (eg at Crewe) because of train crew issues.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Holyhead all day on 01/08/2024

Train information at Holyhead all day on 01/08/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[KNN]

Today's main boat train (0902 Euston-Holyhead) and return (1448 Holyhead-Euston) were only 5 and 10 minutes late respectively at the end of their journeys.
The Up train was delayed through Chester, so nothing to do with the train itself.
The afternoon Holyhead service (1502 from Euston) ran about 10 late to Crewe, then 20-25 late on to Holyhead - that might have been a changeover problem (electric to diesel).

No trains were cancelled today, but the most troubling problem since half the service went over to class 805 operation has been service cancellation or turning short (eg at Crewe) because of train crew issues.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Holyhead all day on 01/08/2024

Train information at Holyhead all day on 01/08/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

There is a 30 minute minimum connection time, as I understand it. But it also says you need to arrive 30 minutes before the boat leaves for check in, though I expect that's generous for a foot passenger (it doesn't take that long at Cairnryan).

I don't think you can predict when it will go right or wrong, but personally I would be double checking my rights and get travel insurance to be on the safe side.

 

[cambsy]

the problem for 800’s time keeping on the WCML section London-Crewe, is that the MU speeds up to 125mph, haven’t been signed off etc, so they can only do 110mph max, so they struggle to keep to schedule and then its just usual other delays, signals etc. I would always leave minimum good hour between train and ferry etc, so not stressed if train incurs delay.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The 0902 London Euston to Holyhead (Avanti) train is normally due in at Holyhead at or around 1252, yes? So, which sailing(s) would intending passengers for Dublin and travelling on that particular train, be due to take? And, if missed, are there any later (same day) crossings?

Similar question as regards the 1502 London Euston to Holyhead train, which I believe is due in at Holyhead at or around 1847 (but has recently run late on some Fridays).

 

[endecotp]

Realtime Trains shows ferries as well as trains for Holyhead. Today, the 1252 train arrival has more than an hour’s wait for the 1410 and 1445 ferry departures. Next departures are 1645, 2030, 0215, 0240. (Are Sail-Rail tickets transferrable between the two ferry companies?)

 

[signed]

Are Sail-Rail tickets transferrable between the two ferry companies?

No, it's either via Dublin Ferryport (DFP, Irish Ferries) or Dublin Port - Stena (DPS, Stena Line)

 

[Krokodil]

I wouldn't trust the 1502, personally. It has been frequently cancelled over the last few weeks.

 

[chesterred16]

I'd be massively nervous relying on the Avanti North Wales services to make a ferry connection, recent performance on the line has been abysmal. I'd build in plenty of time, they just can't be trusted to run at the moment. Maybe get the earliest possible train from Euston to Crewe, doesn't matter where it's going after that, and then jump on the first available TfW from there towards the coast and work towards Holyhead that way. Realistically, assuming the person wants to get to the destination rather than being particularly interested in the journey, I'd be flying.

 

[signed]

When I did that trip, the 0902 was cancelled four days in a row

I would get as @chesterred16 a Crewe Avanti and then the TfW connections to Holyhead

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks all - loads of really helpful explanatory info for me here to help me advise my friend on what to expect - situation does look fairly poor....he's already decided on B&B in Holyhead and ferry next day! I think he must want to do the train as his journey will pass Gatwick airport en route...and I did suggest he consider that option.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2024 ==

Do the new Class 805s have Standard Premium or are they like the Voyagers which don't have it - I'm assuming they don't have it as only 5 cars

 

[poffle]

No, it's either via Dublin Ferryport (DFP, Irish Ferries) or Dublin Port - Stena (DPS, Stena Line)

If the train is delayed and you have a sailrail ticket then Avanti will transfer to another ferry. The ferry times shown on the train booking system are imaginary ( particularly for the Irish Ferries Swift service.). You need to look at the ferry companies website to see the real times.

If the 090x is cancelled from Euston but running from Crewe then you need to get the preceding 08:46 Euston - Liverpool train which stops at Crewe.

 

[WirralLine]

I personally would avoid Avanti along the North Wales Coast at all costs. Frequent cancellations due to lack of train crew, the 805s arn't the best behaved units either according to some drivers I was chatting to last week.

Usually Avanti arrange ticket acceptance with TFW in the event of a cancellation, but cramming all the Avanti passengers in on an already rammed 2/3 car 197 is pretty hectic. Often rammed to the rafters or leaving people behind due to lack of space.

 

[WesternLancer]

I wouldn't trust the 1502, personally. It has been frequently cancelled over the last few weeks.

Thanks - I see it got to Crewe reasonably on time today but is now sat at platform and 30 mins late so far....

 

[Tractor2018]

Thanks - I see it got to Crewe reasonably on time today but is now sat at platform and 30 mins late so far....

Was always, according to Avanti site, to be caped at Crewe.

 

[RGM654]

I used the ferry from and back to Holyhead two years ago when there were reports of horrendous delays at airports and it worked OK for me then. But one more minor downside of Holyhead was a longish walk from the platform where the London train came in to the ferry terminal at the end of the other platform, followed by a bus ride from the ferry terminal to the ship.

 

[Krokodil]

[Pedant mode] PINE was the telegraphic code for a train terminating short, CAPE is for trains that don't run at all.

 

[Alfie1014]

I did the journey out and back last month. Outward on the 09:02 ex Euston (still a Voyager) the train ran fine (a minute or two late at Holyhead). Check-in for foot passengers closes 40 min before sailing on Stena and foot passengers on both companies are bused a fair distance to the ship from the terminal so the 40 mins is necessary for that and security and any border controls. There’s a left luggage facility that enables you to not be encumbered by your bags.

I returned on the 08:15 return sailing. This makes comfortable connection into the 12:52 AWC service to London. This was a single 805 but wouldn’t couple to another unit at Crewe and after 45 mins was subsequently cancelled.

A word of warning the early morning and overnight sailings on both companies do not take foot passengers.

So in my opinion it is doable, it worked (other than the delay on the return in my case) and hopefully as time goes on and crews become more experienced with the new fleet reliability will improve!

 

[Tractor2018]

[Pedant mode] PINE was the telegraphic code for a train terminating short, CAPE is for trains that don't run at all.

Every day's a school day

 

[poffle]

I did the journey out and back last month. Outward on the 09:02 ex Euston (still a Voyager) the train ran fine (a minute or two late at Holyhead). Check-in for foot passengers closes 40 min before sailing on Stena and foot passengers on both companies are bused a fair distance to the ship from the terminal so the 40 mins is necessary for that and security and any border controls. There’s a left luggage facility that enables you to not be encumbered by your bags.

I returned on the 08:15 return sailing. This makes comfortable connection into the 12:52 AWC service to London. This was a single 805 but wouldn’t couple to another unit at Crewe and after 45 mins was subsequently cancelled.

A word of warning the early morning and overnight sailings on both companies do not take foot passengers.

So in my opinion it is doable, it worked (other than the delay on the return in my case) and hopefully as time goes on and crews become more experienced with the new fleet reliability will improve!

The Stena Adventurer and Stena Estrid both take foot and SailRail passengers on the Holyhead - Dublin route.

For Irish Ferries slow ferries only the Ulysses sailings take foot or SailRail passengers.

The Irish Ferries Swift ferry takes foot and SailRail passengers but only operates during Summer.
It does two round trips during the day but is likely to be cancelled in adverse weather conditions.

On weekdays the only train into Holyhead which connects with the 09:00 Stena Estrid sailing to Dublin is the 05:30 from Birmingham which is scheduled into Holyhead at 08:22. This Everyone train has been rather unreliable since the June timetable introduction.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Stena Adventurer and Stena Estrid both take foot and SailRail passengers on the Holyhead - Dublin route.
For Irish Ferries slow ferries only the Ulysses sailings take foot or SailRail passengers.
The Irish Ferries Swift ferry takes foot and SailRail passengers but only operates during Summer.
It does two round trips during the day but is likely to be cancelled in adverse weather conditions.
On weekdays the only train into Holyhead which connects with the 09:00 Stena Estrid sailing to Dublin is the 06:30 from Birmingham which is scheduled into Holyhead at 08:22. This Everyone train has been rather unreliable since the June timetable introduction.

0530 Evero service from Birmingham.
It is running today.

 

[Krokodil]

0530 Evero service from Birmingham.
It is running today.

Not such good news in the other direction, first two trains cancelled due to lack of crew.

 

[WesternLancer]

I wouldn't trust the 1502, personally. It has been frequently cancelled over the last few weeks.

Again today this service was planned to terminate at Chester I saw. This being the one my friend intends to use so I assume anyone going further has to change onto TfW service that is scheduled to run behind the Avanti service.

 

[Krokodil]

so I assume anyone going further has to change onto TfW service that is scheduled to run behind the Avanti service.

And TfW are struggling for 158s at the moment, so the single one on the service (usually booked for two as far as Llandudno Junction) will have been very cosy.

 

[WesternLancer]

And TfW are struggling for 158s at the moment, so the single one on the service (usually booked for two as far as Llandudno Junction) will have been very cosy.

Yes. I thought that too.

Obviously a long time since this was the Premier Route to Ireland!

 

[WesternLancer]

To conclude - My friend took the 15.02 from Euston earlier this week - service ran throughout to Holyhead (10 cars reduced to 5 at Chester) and arrived Holyhead c18 mins late). Compared to other days / times they could have done it I think they got a good result!

 

[Joseph T]

Yesterday I went from Crewe to Llandudno Junction on 1D14 and it was packed to the brim with passengers from a cancelled Avanti service. This morning I was browsing RTT only to find that 1D80 was cancelled beyond Crewe, meaning 1A26 was cancelled up to Crewe more than 2.5 hours before its intended departure from Holyhead. Avanti's daily Wrexham - Euston return service also seems to have a 50% chance of getting cancelled.

How come Avanti services to and from Holyhead are seemingly especially prone to cancellations?

 

[poffle]

Seems to be a substantial element of Hitachi pretend to make trains and Avanti pretend to run them.

There seems to be have been a lot of issues with the introduction of the class 805s. Avanti also seems to have regular crewing issues. I'm not sure whether all the Avanti staff are trained yet on the 805s as they're currently operating both 221s and 805s.

I suspect that buying a microfleet of new trains specified for a particular ToCs requirements on a particular route is problematic. It takes a lot of effort to troubleshoot and sort out all the issues cropping up with a new fleet and doing that multiple times over for multiple microfleets overloads scarce resources. I suspect that Great British Railways might sort this out.

The 805s seems to have particular issues with diesel engine reliability and with talking to each other when coupled into pairs.

I also suspect there is an issue with Avanti doing their own crewing on North Wales. Looking at the Holyhead diagrams all the Avanti trains leave Holyhead in the morning and come back again late at night. During the day there are a few trains that come in and turn around an hour or two later.

I suspect it would be better if there was more of a pooling of staff with TfW in North Wales. I'm sure there would be issues with different companies staff having different terms and conditions but TfW have a scale in North Wales that Avanti don't.

There is a thread on the introduction of the 805/807s on the rolling stock section of the site:

Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

Is there any progress on those trains mentioned in the title?

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